How long does an A&P/IA have to sign logs after annual?

Chip Sylverne

Chip Sylverne

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Had my airplane annualled last month, no problems. However, life has gotten a little complicated (wife surgery etc.) and my mechanic and I haven't been able to coordinate schedules and get the paperwork signed off. Is there a time limit from when the inspection was actually completed to getting the logs signed off?
 
Before the wheels leave the ground.

I would say the Inspection is not complete until the last T is crossed

and the I dotted. Verifying AD’s are current to the latest b/w would

also be part of the Inspection
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Is there a time limit from when the inspection was actually completed to getting the logs signed off?
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No. But if you usually comply with other separate inspections during the annual like for an AD, they will maintain their original 12 month recurrent schedule based on when they were performed, if that makes sense.
 
No. Can be signed at any time. The date should be the date the inspection or maint was performed.

Just can’t operate it until that’s done. Waiting later to sign shouldn’t extend the date.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
and my mechanic and I haven't been able to coordinate schedules and get the paperwork signed off.
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Your A&P could just mail you / e mail you the log book entry. Then just peel and stick or cut and glue into your log book.
 
My AP/IA emails me my sign offs and annual inspection log book entry.
He sends me a entry made on Avery stick label’s.
I stick it sheet of Avery labels in my printer and out comes one label with my sign off.
Sometimes it is 2 or 3 labels depending on how much work I/we did to the airplane.
My log books always stays home in a fire resistant file box.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Don’t sign-offs require an original signature?
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That’s an interesting question. The regs require a “signature” but don’t define the term. While there is likely a preference for pen & ink (“wet”) or digital signatures, the general legal definition of “signature” is very broad - something adopted by the person signing with the intent to authenticate a writing.

In addition to wet and modern devices for digital formality, things like rubber signature stamps were used for decades, even by lawyers filing paper court pleadings 40 years ago.

It’s not a stretch to say that if I as a CFI or a mechanic sends a picture of an endorsement with a facsimile signature intending it be treated as signed, it is signed. I have no idea whether the FAA would agree if push came to shove, assuming one could even tell the difference between a sticker signed with a pen and one signed with a pasted or scanned graphic.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Don’t sign-offs require an original signature?
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In the context of mx records and specifically to those listed in 91.417, the original signature must be in pen and ink or an acceptable electronic format. If an electronic signature lacks an underlying validation method, then its considered a photocopy signature which is not acceptable.

However, in the above case, if the IA held the original signed label for the required 417 time frame, and the owner was good with that, then no foul. Regardless, the owner is the one held responsible for the mx record and not the mechanic beyond their initial 43.9 or 43.11 requirement.

Unfortunately, the FAA has varying guidance on the required signature format depending on the record type and use.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It’s not a stretch to say that if I as a CFI or a mechanic sends a picture of an endorsement with a facsimile signature intending it be treated as signed, it is signed. I have no idea whether the FAA would agree if push came to shove, assuming one could even tell the difference between a sticker signed with a pen and one signed with a pasted or scanned graphic.
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I would think it'd only be an issue if the signer later disputes that it's his signature, in the event of an accident.

A casual look may not detect the difference between an original signature and a printed copy, but it's easy to detect with magnification.
 
Dana said:
I would think it'd only be an issue if the signer later disputes that it's his signature, in the event of an accident.
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That's where I can see it coming up too. But forgery or dishonesty (by either the owner or the mechanic) is a risk that exists regardless of the form or medium of the signature, and there is typically external evidence one way or the other.
 
Sticker.
Mailed.
Ask for a photo of it.
 
At some point the IA needs to have access to some of the Records;

particularly the Status of AD’s. “ P/C/W” in the Log is not sufficient.

It should be traceable to a detailed signed entry. This requires some

effort by the Owner. I’ve been handed boxes with the comment “It’s in

there”. It likely is; along with old gas receipts, cheeseburger wrappers etc.
 
WDD said:
Your A&P could just mail you / e mail you the log book entry. Then just peel and stick or cut and glue into your log book.
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When does everything get signed? When the check clears. Or at least when I hand the shop a check. They trust me that it will clear.

This is what my shop does. All entries are stickers generated on the computer's printer. This way the shop has the history and I have the log books.
 
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Or.... I keep the books at the A&P shop in their safe. I can get access anytime if I want to review past records, etc. Mechanic has access anytime he needs. That and the mechanic having a set of keys to my plane makes things very convenient for both of us. For record entry, he prints off the stickers, puts them in my log books, and he has his records as well on his system.
 
It's nice to trust your AP to take care of your log books.
What if something happens to your AP, someone else takes over, or there a fire?

The first thing the prior owner of my airplane pointed out to me is how important the logs were when I was working on it and it was still his plane.
 
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Gary Ward said:
It's nice to trust your AP to take care of your log books.
What if something happens to your AP, someone else takes over, or there a fire?

The first thing the prior owner of my airplane pointed out to me is how important the logs were when I was working on it and it was still his plane.
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Good points. For me,
1) If he sells or stops coming to work, I take the books until I find a new mechanic.

2) A chance of a fire at his place burning the log books is about the same or less than at my house. He has industrial strength fire suppression, stricter fire coded building, office, etc.

3) Besides, I scan the log books every 6 months anyway, so I have a complete PDF back up set regardless.

There are unexpected costs, however. The owner is the key A&P, his wife runs the office, and they bring their dog Luna to the office. SO..... I had to invest in box of dog treats. Usually bring 2 or 3 treats when I go to the shop. Dog now sees me, barks once, runs over and wags tail.
 
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WDD said:
3) Besides, I scan the log books every 6 months anyway, so I have a complete PDF back up set regardless.
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You are probably ok. I wouldn’t expect problems with a reliable shop that generally houses its customer logbooks and maintains facilities for the purpose any more that I would have a problem with a flight school housing leaseback aircraft logbooks.

But there’s more than one way to skin the cat and others would do the opposite. Owner with the originals, mechanic with the scanned version.
 
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Owners should be aware it’s a pia to scan Records.

But it’s a much bigger PIA to restore missing Records!

Having to verify 1 AD can be a bigger task than the entire scan.
 
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I am too OCD to allow my logbooks out of my possession. My A&P/IA has a DVD of the latest scanned copy in his office (I keep a DVD in the aircraft as well, just in case I am AOG somewhere and the local A&P needs it). When the Annual Inspection is complete, I bring them to him (he is two hangars away) for the necessary documentation and signatures, leave with them and a somewhat smaller checking account balance...
 
Magman said:
Owners should be aware it’s a pia to scan Records.
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It actually isn't. When I first started doing it to have copies of a new client's books I set up an easel and a camera with a tripod but soon realized I'm not taking someone's portrait I just want a picture that is legible, doesn't matter if my fingers are in it or if there's a messy background or it's crooked as long as I could read it. So I adopted a new method using a small point and shoot camera and flipping through the book with my left hand taking snapshots of two pages at a time like a spy. I can capture a complete book in less than a minute and the photos can be converted into a pdf file.
 
Silvaire said:
It actually isn't. When I first started doing it to have copies of a new client's books I set up an easel and a camera with a tripod but soon realized I'm not taking someone's portrait I just want a picture that is legible, doesn't matter if my fingers are in it or if there's a messy background or it's crooked as long as I could read it. So I adopted a new method using a small point and shoot camera and flipping through the book with my left hand taking snapshots of two pages at a time like a spy. I can capture a complete book in less than a minute and the photos can be converted into a pdf file.
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Given how well modern cameras work these days, I'll bet one could get pretty good results just flipping through the pages while shooting a 4k 60fps or 120fps video.
 
Possibly but with individual shots you can annotate or rename significant ones such as when an AD was signed off or a major repair done so they are easily found later.
 
Silvaire said:
Possibly but with individual shots you can annotate or rename significant ones such as when an AD was signed off or a major repair done so they are easily found later.
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You can do that too by exporting frame grabs.
 
Important to assure you have CURRENT AD’s , W&B, Equipment List etc

before or during the process. Too often I’ve seen where Techs have

updated superseded W&B Records because that was what was available.
 
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