How fast on the ILS..?

coloradobluesky said:
The one negative about coming in fast is you have to get slowed down to land and that will eat up runway. If the other end of the runway is in fog or the runway is short then you may have a problem. Also, consider if there is a tailwind. Now you are really going to eat up runway.
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Another drawback to keeping the speed up (in pistons) is shock cooling. If you try to adhere to the manufacturer's maximum CHT cooling rate limit (e.g. 50 degF/min), that creates a problem when you are screaming down final and have to suddenly slow down to land.
I like to monitor that cooling rate during descent and landing, and have it recorded along with the other engine parameters for post-flight analysis. Any flight with shock cooling exceedance is highlighted in red on my graph, just like max CHT exceedance, and I try to avoid those for engine longevity.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
The one negative about coming in fast is you have to get slowed down to land and that will eat up runway. If the other end of the runway is in fog or the runway is short then you may have a problem. Also, consider if there is a tailwind. Now you are really going to eat up runway.
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Depends upon what you're flying and procedure/technique.

In the jet we must be on configuration (flaps full gear down) and on speed (Vapp +5/0) and on GS and Loc by the 1000' AFE gate. One can approach the marker at 170Knots and configure and make this gate no problem on the A320.

Same principal with a small GA plane, keep the speed up but be on a stabilized approach by 1000' and you'll be fine.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Fine, what about CYYT? Was asked for best forward speed on an ILS in the 310 down to 400. Of course up there that's good VFR.
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My idea of "best forward speed" on final is about 5 knots below max gear/flap speed. Controllers get paid really good money to sort things out so we pilots can land safely, and since it's my butt on the line, not the controller's, I'm not going to let a controller turn his/her problems into my problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
My idea of "best forward speed" on final is about 5 knots below max gear/flap speed. Controllers get paid really good money to sort things out so we pilots can land safely, and since it's my butt on the line, not the controller's, I'm not going to let a controller turn his/her problems into my problems.
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And the other planes have to get in, too. I get ****ed off waiting for a 172 at 90, I'm sure a 747 feels similar about me. If I'm comfortable, no problem.

In that approach into CYYT I did about 175 mph indicated, popped 15 flaps, hit full flaps and gear at 160 a mile or two out.
 
44 years of flying and you can't lose 30kts over 3800' (worst case) horizontally in an already dirty plane?

For as much talking about how awesome you are at flying, I'm certainly disappointed in your skill set.
 
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EdFred said:
44 years of flying and you can't lose 30kts over 3800' (worst case) horizontally in an already dirty plane?

For as much talking about how awesome you are at flying, I'm certainly disappointed in your skill set.
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Holy shyte Ed. Welcome back to PoA (insert emoticon that shows sarcasm, yet astonishment that you would try to pick that fight - yet I am amazingly curious how Ron is going to respond, or not respond)
BTW, about that comment about being anally violated with a cactus....
 
Jaybird180 said:
Holy shyte Ed. Welcome back to PoA (insert emoticon that shows sarcasm, yet astonishment that you would try to pick that fight - yet I am amazingly curious how Ron is going to respond, or not respond)
BTW, about that comment about being anally violated with a cactus....
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Sorry, if someone is going to constantly yammer about "I've been flying for 40+ years and (insert awesomeness here)" then you better damn well have some skills that show you aren't doing the equivalent of driving 45mph in the left lane of I-95 with your blinker on. Slowing 30kts in 3/4 of a mile after breaking out isn't some super amazing skill. You'd think after 44 years someone could manage a simple task.
 
I think Ron would admit to being old, never claimed to be bold.
 
EdFred said:
Slowing down after breaking out = bold?


Who knew.
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I'm not going to risk speaking for Ron, but I think I understand his logic given the posts that he's made on the topic. I see your point also. I guess to each his own and neither way is right nor wrong; it's at PIC discretion.
 
Ron Levy said:
One point I should make about this issue. My experience giving IR training for the last eight years and change is that female trainees are far less driven to fly ILS's in light planes at the speed of stink than male trainees. Draw your own conclusions.

Also, while I've heard a lot of folks say you really need to fly your ILS's in a 172 at 130 KIAS or the like because that's what you'll have to do at O'Hare or Hartsfield, nobody I've ever heard say that has ever actually flown an ILS into O'Hare or Hartsfield in a 172, and my experience flying Aztecs into both airports is that there is no such "need" -- I was easily able to arrange to fly the approach within the gear and flap limit speeds.
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I'm not sure what you're insinuating in your first paragraph, but there are good reasons other than "machismo" for flying a faster than normal approach. I'm not sure that any of those reasons would necessarily be encountered in a typical training environment.

Regarding your second paragraph, I agree that "arranging" to fly approaches at whatever speed you'd like is normally easy to do, but that "arrangement" may mean that you have to hold while the stream of jets and turboprops go in before you. I agree that's the right choice if it means the difference between a safe operation or an unnecessarily risky one, but I think that the answer here really depends on the situation.


JKG
 
Ron Levy said:
One point I should make about this issue. My experience giving IR training for the last eight years and change is that female trainees are far less driven to fly ILS's in light planes at the speed of stink than male trainees. Draw your own conclusions.
.
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Things are different in the working world outside of the training environment.

I have yet to be asked to speed up around here, that said helping with the flow of traffic is a good thing as long as you're not pushing the plane or your limits.
 
I'm still confused by any sort of machismo implication. Other than needing to be aware of the need to slow down at some point, flying an approach at high speed isn't any harder than flying it slowly. It doesn't require any more skill.

If you're planning on going missed, you don't even need to slow down at all from cruise speed (depending on the skill set you're practicing I suppose).

In fact, I think it's easier to fly them faster (the workload of slowing down notwithstanding) because you ultimately spend less time on the approach, potentially less time in the soup, etc. These are real world considerations, not so much for training.

I did shoot an approach at 90kts a long time ago on a day with 20kt headwinds. It felt like I needed to shave twice during the approach, it was really that noticeable how much longer it was taking.
 
If you notice the replies here, the professional pilots don't have an issue with keeping the speed up on an ILS because it's a day to day thing that is easily done and can be flown keeping the airplane within the gates of a stabilized approach.

When someone who only operates in the world of training and a very controlled environment without much real world experience then you see the reluctance.
 
yup.....I flew an Arrow at 155kts on an approach into National one time.....but, I landed on the wrong runway.

Does that still count? :lol:
 
James331 said:
Things are different in the working world outside of the training environment.
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How so? The plane doesn't fly any differently because there's training going on. And I think 3000 hours of military and 135 flying provides a reasonable balance of "working world" operations against the 3500+ hours of flight training I've given.

As for EdFred, I'm not going to get into a "mine's bigger than yours" with him.
 
Is zat counting all your open cockpit fighter time Ron? :eek:

Ron Levy said:
How so? The plane doesn't fly any differently because there's training going on. And I think 3000 hours of military and 135 flying provides a reasonable balance of "working world" operations against the 3500+ hours of flight training I've given.

As for EdFred, I'm not going to get into a "mine's bigger than yours" with him.
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dans2992 said:
1. What aircraft do you fly?
2. What speed do you like to fly the ILS at?
3. What speed do you fly it when asked for "max forward speed" by ATC? What configuration do you use? When do you slow?
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A1. MD-11
A2. Very light (280K#): 135KTS, Max LGW (491.5K#): 168KTS
A3. Never really asked, but if we get something it's either usually 160 or 170 to the marker. Flaps 35/Slats extended. We can also fly Flaps 50/Slats. We have to be stable by 1000' AGL (IMC) or 500' AGL (VMC). I'll fly Flaps 15/Slats until about 1000-1500' above the required stable point, and configure then.

B1. KC-135R
B2. Light (135K#): 136KTS (Flaps 40), Max LGW (235K#): 170KTS (Flaps 50)
B3. See above. Flaps 40 is normal, we can use 50 or 30. We have to be stable by the FAF/GS Intercept, so we'll fly approach speed the whole way down.

C1. PA-32
C2. 90-100MPH
C2. I'm comfortable doing 120 down final to about 500', then I'd slow and configure if I needed to, but like most everyone else said, I'm not going to let the controller fly my plane for me.
 
Ron Levy said:
How so? The plane doesn't fly any differently because there's training going on. And I think 3000 hours of military and 135 flying provides a reasonable balance of "working world" operations against the 3500+ hours of flight training I've given.
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Now, to be fair here the military time was not as a pilot. And by your own admission the 135 time was almost 35 years ago?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Now, to be fair here the military time was not as a pilot. And by your own admission the 135 time was almost 35 years ago?
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I am unaware of any changes in the laws of physics in the last 35 years or in the response of an aircraft to the hands on the controls depending on the design of the wings on the chest of the person flying it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I am unaware of any changes in the laws of physics in the last 35 years or in the response of an aircraft to the hands on the controls depending on the design of the wings on the chest of the person flying it.
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:rolleyes2:

I spent a fair amount of time transiting back and forth to Asia on a B747-400 a few years ago, and I was always listed as "ACM" (Additional Crewmember) on the flight release and GenDec's.

Using your logic, I should log the time and claim to have "flown" the B747 and write about all of my "experience" flying the '74. :rolleyes:
 
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Ron Levy said:
How so?
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I can't remember a time when the sim instructor playing ATC ever gave me a speed adjustment of 160 knots to the FAF, but it happens at busy airline airports all the time. 160 is above our landing flap setting speed of 150 knots. But the airplane isn't that hard to slow down so it really isn't an issue.
 
Everskyward said:
I can't remember a time when the sim instructor playing ATC ever gave me a speed adjustment of 160 knots to the FAF, but it happens at busy airline airports all the time. 160 is above our landing flap setting speed of 150 knots. But the airplane isn't that hard to slow down so it really isn't an issue.
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And that's a light single you're flying?
 
Everskyward said:
No... Does it matter?
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Regarding my posts, yes. My concerns were directed at instructors telling light aircraft pilots that they need learn to fly ILS's at speeds well in excess of max flap and gear speeds and do so regularly just because some day they might have to do that at someplace like ORD or ATL in something like a 172, which I think is an absurd supposition and encourages poor flying technique (specifically, highly unstabilized approaches).

I thought that you were discussing the differences between training and real life.
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Someone else suggested that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Regarding my posts, yes. My concerns were directed at instructors telling light aircraft pilots that they need learn to fly ILS's at speeds well in excess of max flap and gear speeds and do so regularly just because some day they might have to do that at someplace like ORD or ATL in something like a 172, which I think is an absurd supposition and encourages poor flying technique (specifically, highly unstabilized approaches).

.
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There are many airports that will have you speed up on approach for in trail traffic, and they don't have to be major class B airports. It's good to teach a student at some point that not all approaches are "by the book" be configured and on speed at the FAF types. Configuring on the glideslope was something I was taught many years ago when I was doing my initial Instrument rating, and I'm glad I had such training.

In today's world I fly with low time FO's who were taught "on speed, final configuration" before GS intercept and the FAF. When we get into a high density airport (HKG, ICN, SIN, KUL, etc) it's always keep the speed up to the marker (170+). If I'm letting the FO fly they immediately want to slow down and start configuring, which usually means I take over before we are waived off to a hold.

Confidence building during initial training is not a bad thing.
 
Ron Levy said:
Regarding my posts, yes. My concerns were directed at instructors telling light aircraft pilots that they need learn to fly ILS's at speeds well in excess of max flap and gear speeds and do so regularly just because some day they might have to do that at someplace like ORD or ATL in something like a 172, which I think is an absurd supposition and encourages poor flying technique (specifically, highly unstabilized approaches).
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I haven't reviewed every post in this thread but I don't see where instructors are advocating that students train this way. I mostly see pilots who are trying the technique on their own.
 
Piper archer 3

90-100

When asked for best forward speed I indicate I am. If they want faster my buzzword is "unable"
 
Everskyward said:
I haven't reviewed every post in this thread but I don't see where instructors are advocating that students train this way. I mostly see pilots who are trying the technique on their own.
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Well, I'll state that it should be included as a confidence builder.

In a recent transition training I did in a 310, I gave the pilot a "maximum forward speed as long as practical" on an ILS. Something about a (simulated) heavy 747-400 on his tail.

Good confidence builder.
 
asgcpa said:
Piper archer 3

90-100

When asked for best forward speed I indicate I am. If they want faster my buzzword is "unable"
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If that's your go to, then be ready to have your approach cancelled and sent into a hold, or be vectored all over Hades. Your "unable" is really more of an "unwilling."
 
Bonanzas and barons- 120kts at gear down and no flaps... When rwy is in sight, add flaps as appropriate.

lears and citations - fly calculated vAPP for that weight. 120-145kts

I dont like flying approaches slower than 100. Feels like it takes forever. But in a 172, you gotta do it.
 
From an ATC standpoint, I'll assign a specific speed or greater until the FAF. That way I know exactly what you are doing and can sequence appropriately. As a pilot as well I know certain airplanes (C182's, Bonanza's) can do 120 without breaking a sweat. I've assigned those speeds before when I have needed it.

My last flight to DAY was interesting. Fully loaded Saratoga, VMC conditions at DAY. I could hear the controller trying to sequence a DAL MD80 behind us, so I told the controller I could hold 135 KTS until 2 miles. He was relieved, cleared us both for the approach, and switched us to the tower. I held the speed until almost a mile out, chopped the throttle, and plunked her down about 300 feet past my original planned touchdown point. I missed my original turn off point but made the very next one, and exited the runway without any problem. On exit, I noticed the MD80 was 1/4 mile final. Nice job by the DAY approach controller!

If I'm working a SEL GA aircraft and I have any doubts as to the ability of the pilot, I tend to give that pilot a wide berth and allow him/her to shoot an approach at whatever speed they feel comfortable. This goes triple important during marginal VMC or IMC conditions.

I have noticed that aircraft in VMC tend to hold higher speeds down final. When IMC, almost every aircraft is at their final speed by 1000-1500 AGL.
 
jordane93 said:
1. 172 or Cherokee
2. 90
3. Never been asked best forward speed
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Add the 182 to that mix (and the Cherokee had folding gear - Arrow). Same speed and I haven't been asked for best forward speed, either. But, KOLM and nearby fields aren't exactly loaded with big iron, either. It all depends on where you fly. Could I go faster? Sure.
 
If ATC asks for best forward speed and you can't won't or don't want to tell him early on and tell him what your speed is (in my case 75knots indicated). If he gives you crap about it tell him "We have to fly that speed, its in my opspec" (the opspec usually gets him). If he continues to rag on you, say "well its better than crashing".

Personally, in IMC, I'm not doing ANYTHING unusual. In IMC my speed down the ILS is 75 knots indicated and that's that. Now in VFR if they want me to speed up, I can give them 120. But in IMC, I do it my way. Let him deal with the spacing. That's why they pay him the big money. And not being intimidated is why they pay ME the big money (yeah right)
 
EdFred said:
If that's your go to, then be ready to have your approach cancelled and sent into a hold, or be vectored all over Hades. Your "unable" is really more of an "unwilling."
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Really Ed? Never happened. Controllers generally have a good idea how fast certain planes can go so not as to jeopardize safety. If you have been polite and professional, I find they cut you slack. I will try to go faster until FAF, but I am not going to do something unusual after that. And basically were talking 10-15 kias in the Archer. Controllers want to work with you I find.
 
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