How does a pre-buy work for the seller?

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
The only other aircraft I have sold was a C-150. One potential buyer came to the plane with his mechanic who looked it over on site. Simple, easy, no issues there for me.

Say you have a plane for sale and a potential buyer requests to have the plane flown to his mechanics location for pre-buy. What is the typical process? Who pays for the expense of travel? What if the plane is torn apart and the potential buyer refuses to pay the mechanic? What if his mechanic finds something that he thinks deems the aircraft unairworthy; is a logbook entry then made to that effect?
 
The buyer should pay the expenses of moving the airplane, he should also pay up front the cost of the inspection, so if he walks you aren't stuck with the bill. You should have an agreement, in writing, before you move the airplane for an inspection. I'll let our mechanic friends answer the logbook question, but last month my neighbor was buying a Citation, they boroscoped the engines and both in terrible shape, one needed to be overhauled or replaced and one needed a ton of work. The seller flew it home! :eek:
 
The buyer may ask for permission to have anyone he chooses inspect an airplane. The seller may or may not allow it. At no time does the buyer's mechanic have any right or responsibility to add anything to the logbooks since he does not represent the owner. The aircraft logs are not public property. They are private property. Me? If you want to buy my airplane your mechanic will need current credentials and insurance and then his range of what I'll allow him to do to my airplane will be very limited. If that's unacceptable to a buyer? Too bad. Until the sale is complete it's my airplane and my rules.
 
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There are no set in stone rules for a prebuy. It's whatever you negotiate with the buyer.

Personally, I am pretty picky about who I'll let do a prebuy on an airplane I'm selling and where it goes. I don't want to end up in a situation of a shop I don't know or trust trying to ground the plane. That's pretty rare, but it can happen. When selling the 310, I actually proposed they have the prebuy done by a shop that specializes in Twin Cessnas. I knew they'd find more things, but I also trusted them to not cause problems. I've also seen sellers specifically say they won't allow a particular shop, because they don't want the squawk list they expect will come with it.

Typically the buyer pays for fuel and the inspection cost. Logbooks, you have to decide what you want to do. You might want to only allow the mechanic to examine them, or if you have digital logbooks you could only send the digital files. Often times, this is easier anyway since it usually takes a while to look over the logs.

You should have a purchase agreement in writing that specifically dictates who is responsible for what. It at least gives you some recourse, although keep in mind that you could end up being out a lot of time and money trying to get what's owed to you.
 
In one of my plane purchases, I and the seller agreed to each pay half of a full annual condition inspection, the seller would pay any safety issues uncovered, and I paid for any improvements i choose to have done that were not safety issues. If I walked away, I still would pay my half of the condition inspection.
 
Stewartb said:
The buyer may ask for permission to have anyone he chooses inspect an airplane. The seller may or may not allow it. At no time does the buyer's mechanic have any right or responsibility to add anything to the logbooks since he does not represent the owner. The aircraft logs are not public property. They are private property. Me? If you want to buy my airplane your mechanic will need current credentials and insurance and then his range of what I'll allow him to do to my airplane will be very limited. If that's unacceptable to a buyer? Too bad. Until the sale is complete it's my airplane and my rules.
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interesting topic, OP. Stewart I understand your points, fair enough. but to a prospective buyer, we need to minimize the risk of buying a POS that may not be detected unless a PPi or annual is done. but I understand an owners trepidation. tough situation. I do feel strongly that someone who hasn't worked on the plane should be doing whatever inspection is agreed upon.
 
The seller's mechanic is still on the hook for airworthiness. Buying a POS is not something I've ever been associated with so I can't comment. I buy good airplanes. I sell even better ones.
 
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I've sold two planes locally before where they wanted an inspection done by their mechanic. Both times I was within a month of my annual. Their guy charged more than mine, so I agreed to pay the $300 I usually pay plus fix anything that was deemed an airworthiness issue. They paid for anything else they wanted fixed, etc. Pretty fair deal and it worked both times. Get creative.
 
When I bought my 182 I asked the seller to fly to the nearest Cessna authorized repair station. It was a 15 minute flight for them and we both felt comfortable that this repair shop would not cause harm. It took a full day and half for pre buy between going over logs and inspection. Seller was happy as I had no issues with him getting a copy of report and I was happy as they found a few issues which helped get the price right and a few papers in order. The seller paid for the trip and I paid for the pre buy. Both parties happy.
 
q5kacom said:
When I bought my 182 I asked the seller to fly to the nearest Cessna authorized repair station. It was a 15 minute flight for them and we both felt comfortable that this repair shop would not cause harm. It took a full day and half for pre buy between going over logs and inspection. Seller was happy as I had no issues with him getting a copy of report and I was happy as they found a few issues which helped get the price right and a few papers in order. The seller paid for the trip and I paid for the pre buy. Both parties happy.
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My purchase was the same. Negotiated price pending inspection and seller flew the plane about 30 min to A/P of my choice, I paid for annual as the pre buy inspection, he paid for travel.

After annual completed, negotiated for seller agreed to pay airworthy issues and I agreed to pay for non airworthy issues. Had it not passed, I would have been able to walk away from the plane right then and there only on the hook for my A/P's inspection time. Easy Peasy.

If either party makes it are complicated than that...proceeded with extreme caution.
 
Has it ever happened that the mechanic was not paid by the buyer (as previously arranged) and would not release the a/c back to seller until seller paid? (is this a"mechanic's" lien?)
 
Inspection is paid by the buyer at his request. He can also turn it into an annual if he chooses.
A/W issues are normally resolved (and paid for) by the owner/seller.
All other issues can be fixed at the buyer's expense there on the spot or later.

As for logbooks, that is not as tough of a call as you might think. If you trust the mechanic, you could lend him the books. Otherwise digital copies is what I provide. If the buyer or his mechanic have a problem with that, that is their problem and theirs only. :)
Now if you are pressured to sell, you will probably have to jump through more hula-hoops that the seller presents. :)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Has it ever happened that the mechanic was not paid by the buyer (as previously arranged) and would not release the a/c back to seller until seller paid? (is this a"mechanic's" lien?)
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The shops I have dealt with either want a check or wire transfer upfront unless they know the buyer well enough to collect from him. If I were doing the inspection, I wouldn't touch an airplane without the money upfront or an agreement with the owner that he would pay before the airplane left the shop. Too easy for a deal to fall apart and the shop to get caught in the middle!!
 
N747JB said:
Too easy for a deal to fall apart and the shop to get caught in the middle!!
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I could see this as a very real possibility. Also seems too easy for a deal to fall apart and the seller get caught having to deal with the fallout. I appreciate the responses in this thread.

Next question...is a service bulletin an airworthiness issue you would expect the seller to pay for?
 
A non-mandatory service bulletin does not affect the airworthiness of the aircraft, but it would certainly be a negotiating point, depending, at least in part, on how the pre-buy provision in the contract is worded. A seller who cas not met a service bulletin for himself might not be inclined to automatically pay for it for someone else.
 
Next question...is a service bulletin an airworthiness issue you would expect the seller to pay for?
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NO, not for our Sunday flivers. Larger a/c, maybe.
 
Stewartb said:
The buyer may ask for permission to have anyone he chooses inspect an airplane. The seller may or may not allow it. At no time does the buyer's mechanic have any right or responsibility to add anything to the logbooks since he does not represent the owner. The aircraft logs are not public property. They are private property. Me? If you want to buy my airplane your mechanic will need current credentials and insurance and then his range of what I'll allow him to do to my airplane will be very limited. If that's unacceptable to a buyer? Too bad. Until the sale is complete it's my airplane and my rules.
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Once you told me that I'd walk. there are sellers that want to sell their A/C
 
Any thing the buyer wants the buyer pays for.
When you want your mechanic to inspect my aircraft they will do it in my hangar, your will never have the chance to tear my aircraft apart and tell me I must pay to have it put back together.
Plus Inspections are maintenance, all maintenance must be logged by the authorized person who will return to service. See the FARs
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Has it ever happened that the mechanic was not paid by the buyer (as previously arranged) and would not release the a/c back to seller until seller paid? (is this a"mechanic's" lien?)
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No mechanic has the right to hold personal property with out a court order. NO, a mechanic's lien means only that the mechanic must be paid prior to the title is transferred to the new owner.
 
FORANE said:
I could see this as a very real possibility. Also seems too easy for a deal to fall apart and the seller get caught having to deal with the fallout. I appreciate the responses in this thread.

Next question...is a service bulletin an airworthiness issue you would expect the seller to pay for?
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SBs. are never an airworthiness issue unless they are required by an AD.
 
Tom-D said:
SBs. are never an airworthiness issue unless they are required by an AD.
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Sure, I was aware of that. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. How about for an experimental aircraft, would you expect a seller to pay for SB's discovered at pre-buy?
 
jesse said:
Oops, forgot the logbooks, sticker please...
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Do you really believe any sane mechanic would do a pre-buy with out logs in hand, better question, would you trust them if they did.??
 
FORANE said:
Sure, I was aware of that. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. How about for an experimental aircraft, would you expect a seller to pay for SB's discovered at pre-buy?
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You would have to read the letter of limitation to see if the SBs are required. Other wise NO.
 
Tom-D said:
Do you really believe any sane mechanic would do a pre-buy with out logs in hand, better question, would you trust them if they did.??
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Sure, depending on the mechanic, and what your expectations of a "pre buy" is. For me..and many others...it's something like:
"Come with me this weekend, tell me whether or not you'd buy this thing."
 
Try this. And send the mechanic a PDF copy of the logbook to work off of.
 

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jesse said:
Sure, depending on the mechanic, and what your expectations of a "pre buy" is.
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Well OK, you'd trust the mechanic to know all the ADs are complied with out the logs or wouldn't you want to know if they were?
 
Tom,
How would you feel if you were given a digital copy of the logs beforehand?
 
FORANE said:
Tom,
How would you feel if you were given a digital copy of the logs beforehand?
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i'd probably feel irritable grumpy and tell you to take a flying leap. If you wouldn't trust me with your maintenance records why would you trust me to do any inspection? Secondly, how would I know they are a true copy? copies are easy to throw away.
 
Tom-D said:
Well OK, you'd trust the mechanic to know all the ADs are complied with out the logs or wouldn't you want to know if they were?
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I would never fully trust a mechanic that all the AD(s) were complied with, as a pilot, or a buyer, or a owner. I verify that in all of those roles. If there was something AD related that I thought we should physically look at I'd let the mechanic know.

My ideal pre buy is just getting the opportunity to physically look at it in person (not tear the entire thing apart) and get the eyes of someone that wrenches on them all day looking at it as well. I don't expect that a mechanic won't miss something and hold myself just as responsible as I would them.

As a result this technique allows you to buy airplanes in scenarios that aren't ideal. Those are the scenarios where the deals are at. Sometimes the seller is just difficult, other times they are lazy, and other times they are dead or near dead. You take some risk in order to get it at the price you want and you make it easy for the less than ideal seller.

Not something I would suggest anyone do, especially a first time buyer. However this is a pre buy scenario that happens quite a lot in my part of the country :)
 
The pre-purchase inspection if very free-form, but the norm is that the buy pays. I always request that my clients get me electronic copies of the logs -- photos are fine -- so that I can look them over before hand which helps set the scope of the physical inspection. Who pays for relocation costs, if any, is also negotiable.

It would be a red flag if the seller insisted on a particular mechanic to do the pre-purchase as it would be if he/she nixed the person the buyer wanted unless there were obvious qualification issues.

As long as I have it in writing that the buyer is paying the mechanic to do the pre-buy, I wouldn't worry too much about the mechanic trying to stick me with a mechanic's lien. No mechanic has the authority to ground an aircraft. Some think that they do. In the context of an annual inspection, they can determine that the aircraft is unairworthy and make a note in the log to that affect, but they are not even allowed to enter the discrepancies in the log. Since I would not be having anyone do an annual inspection on my aircraft who I did not choose, that would be off the table.
 
Tom-D said:
No mechanic has the right to hold personal property with out a court order. NO, a mechanic's lien means only that the mechanic must be paid prior to the title is transferred to the new owner.
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That depends entirely on the state. Some states have mechanic's lien laws that require the mechanic to retain possession of the property or lose the lien.
 
Kristin said:
The pre-purchase inspection if very free-form, but the norm is that the buy pays. I always request that my clients get me electronic copies of the logs -- photos are fine -- so that I can look them over before hand which helps set the scope of the physical inspection. Who pays for relocation costs, if any, is also negotiable.

It would be a red flag if the seller insisted on a particular mechanic to do the pre-purchase as it would be if he/she nixed the person the buyer wanted unless there were obvious qualification issues.

As long as I have it in writing that the buyer is paying the mechanic to do the pre-buy, I wouldn't worry too much about the mechanic trying to stick me with a mechanic's lien. No mechanic has the authority to ground an aircraft. Some think that they do. In the context of an annual inspection, they can determine that the aircraft is unairworthy and make a note in the log to that affect, but they are not even allowed to enter the discrepancies in the log. Since I would not be having anyone do an annual inspection on my aircraft who I did not choose, that would be off the table.
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Got a reference for that ?? I've never seen a regulation saying that I'm not allowed to place discrepancies in a maintenance record.
 
bradg33 said:
That depends entirely on the state. Some states have mechanic's lien laws that require the mechanic to retain possession of the property or lose the lien.
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I only know how the FAA deals with leans. I also know that the insurance companies will pay the lean holder prior to the owner when they issue the insurance came check.
 
jesse said:
I would never fully trust a mechanic that all the AD(s) were complied with, as a pilot, or a buyer, or a owner. I verify that in all of those roles. If there was something AD related that I thought we should physically look at I'd let the mechanic know.

My ideal pre buy is just getting the opportunity to physically look at it in person (not tear the entire thing apart) and get the eyes of someone that wrenches on them all day looking at it as well. I don't expect that a mechanic won't miss something and hold myself just as responsible as I would them.

As a result this technique allows you to buy airplanes in scenarios that aren't ideal. Those are the scenarios where the deals are at. Sometimes the seller is just difficult, other times they are lazy, and other times they are dead or near dead. You take some risk in order to get it at the price you want and you make it easy for the less than ideal seller.

Not something I would suggest anyone do, especially a first time buyer. However this is a pre buy scenario that happens quite a lot in my part of the country :)
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Here too, I've seen several buyers that when told to walk away have turned around and still bought the aircraft when the price was reduced.
I've also seen a buyer make a stupid low offer and get told you just bought the aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
Many large aircraft are under a different maintenance plan, and the SBs probably are mandatory.
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Yes, some are mandatory and some are optional, at least in my experience with Conquests and a Citation.
 
Tom-D said:
Got a reference for that ?? I've never seen a regulation saying that I'm not allowed to place discrepancies in a maintenance record.
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FAR 43.11(b) says you must give the owner a signed and dated list of discrepancies. Subparagraph (a) lists what must be in a log book entry. Nowhere does it say that you should enter the discrepancies found on an inspection, in the logbook. It is a canon of legal interpretation that when something is omitted, it was presumed omitted for a reason. Further, you are the mechanic, do not own the logbooks, nor are you responsible for maintaining them. That is the owner/operator's responsibility. Putting discrepancies in the logbook without the owner's permission is asking for trouble and provides the mechanic no protection. Keep a copy of the signed and dated list along with a copy of the disapproval entry as specified by 43.11.
 
Kristin said:
FAR 43.11(b) says you must give the owner a signed and dated list of discrepancies. Subparagraph (a) lists what must be in a log book entry. Nowhere does it say that you should enter the discrepancies found on an inspection, in the logbook. It is a canon of legal interpretation that when something is omitted, it was presumed omitted for a reason. Further, you are the mechanic, do not own the logbooks, nor are you responsible for maintaining them. That is the owner/operator's responsibility. Putting discrepancies in the logbook without the owner's permission is asking for trouble and provides the mechanic no protection. Keep a copy of the signed and dated list along with a copy of the disapproval entry as specified by 43.11.
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No where does it say you can't either, plus it doesn't say that list can't be in the maintenance records for that aircraft.
Unscrupulous owners have been known to throw the lists of discrepancies away and have their unsafe to fly aircraft returned to service by signing off a minor discrepancy.
My PMI at FSDO will back me up IF/WHEN I should ever place a safety discrepancy in the aircraft's records.
I also must CYA my certificates, IF / WHEN you as an owner refuse to comply with repairs for a safety discrepancies I'll simply walk away and not place any thing in your records. I'll not give you proof that I was even there. My next call is to FSDO who will then inspect your aircraft and if necessary remove your airworthiness certificates until you prove to them the discrepancies have been corrected.
Ever been thru a compliance inspection by FSDO? believe me it is a lot easier to deal with your friendly A&P-IA.
 
Remember people, common practices are not the rules,
 
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