How did you handle pushy parents that demand their kid solo at 10 hours and get their license at 45...but their kid is mediocre.

Status
Not open for further replies.
iamtheari said:
There could be several communication breakdowns between the OP and the parents, but the link from teenage child to parent has these traits: outside the direct observation of the CFI, likely to cause issues in the parent-CFI link, and unlikely to be 100% accurate.
Click to expand...
So, the CFI is a high school teacher?
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Beta male in a type A environment.
Click to expand...
Seems like passing the student to a new instructor would be good for both of you. It's bizarre to judge a student this way. "Beta male" isn't even a real thing, it's an epithet used by people with a superiority complex, and says more about you than it does him.
 
Last edited:
dmspilot said:
Seems like passing the student to a new instructor would be good for both of you. It's bizarre to judge a student this way. "Beta male" isn't even a real thing, it's an epithet used by people with a superiority complex, and says more about you than it does him.
Click to expand...
Yes, I certainly like my pilots who lack confidence and are unable to take charge of situations. :rolleyes:
 
dmspilot said:
Seems like passing the student to a new instructor would be good for both of you. It's bizarre to judge a student this way. "Beta male" isn't even a real thing, it's an epithet used by people with a superiority complex, and says more about you than it does him.
Click to expand...

Oh, it's a real thing.

So are the misused epithets though.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
but he is also a marching band nerd.
Click to expand...

Princesspilot206 said:
Beta male in a type A environment.
Click to expand...
May I direct your attention to Aviation Instructor Handbook, page 7-7, figure 7-6. In the list of "Instructor Dont's" is the admonishment, "[Don't] disrespect the student." The tone of the characterizations that you've shared suggest a lack of respect for your student that seems unrelated to his parents' involvement.

In particular, the comment "...but he is also a marching band nerd" says much more about his instructor than it does about the student. After that revelation, it appears to me that the best solution is to pair the student with a different CFI--one less biased and judgmental--for the student's sake. Without knowing any more about you other than what you've posted here, you sorta remind me of a certain Alpha Male CFI who was involved in a recent tragedy, which was the subject of this insightful video.

Flying aircraft is neither an Alpha nor Beta environment--it is an environment to which a wide range of personality types can adapt and flourish, and one in which ALL personality types must adapt, to flourish.

In the FWIW department: From my high school, I know of three band nerds who went on to fly professionally--two in the military and one civilian. All three ended-up at major airlines. Of the thousands of pilots that I flew with during my career, some of the very best were also active musicians who performed at a high level on stage and on the flight deck. Recently in the news, Daniel Harding, who holds a First Officer position with Air France, was named Music Director of the LA Phil(!), succeeding the great Gustavo Dudamel. Maestro Daniel Harding: music nerd and former student pilot, who has reached the pinnacle achievement in one of the most hyper-competitive, hyper-demanding professions in existence, while also working as an airline pilot. So what, exactly, is the problem with "band nerds?"

Your student sounds like a kid who needs something that you are unable and/or unwilling to give. The best thing you can do is let him find a CFI who can and will provide the kind of instruction that he needs.
 
Last edited:
I work with younger kids in gliders. Parents ask what to expect. Well, we can start them at 13, they are old enough to solo at 14, but the key is maturity. Working with young teenagers that are interested in flying, it is amazing to watch their maturity and actions around the airfield change. When you see that change to the good, and the flying skills are there, then it is time to solo. Not before.

The "national average" (a few years ago) was about 30 flights to solo and about 30 more to be ready for a check ride at age 16. Remember, in the glider world, one trip around the traffic pattern, about 5 min, is 1 flight. I had one parent that actually paid his kid to come to the airport and take lessons. That kid never completed the course.
 
Roger Wilco said:
May I direct your attention to Aviation Instructor Handbook, page 7-7, figure 7-6. In the list of "Instructor Dont's" is the admonishment, "[Don't] disrespect the student." The tone of the characterizations that you've shared suggest a lack of respect for your student that seems unrelated to his parents' involvement.

In particular, the comment "...but he is also a marching band nerd" says much more about his instructor than it does about the student. After that revelation, it appears to me that the best solution is to pair the student with a different CFI--one less biased and judgmental--for the student's sake. Without knowing any more about you other than what you've posted here, you sorta remind me of a certain Alpha Male CFI who was involved in a recent tragedy, which was the subject of this insightful video.

Flying aircraft is neither an Alpha nor Beta environment--it is an environment to which a wide range of personality types can adapt and flourish, and one in which ALL personality types have to adapt, to flourish.

In the FWIW department: From my high school, I know of three band nerds who went on to fly professionally--two in the military and one civilian. All three ended-up at major airlines. Of the thousands of pilots that I flew with during my career, some of the very best were also active musicians who performed at a high level on stage and on the flight deck. Recently in the news, Daniel Harding, who holds a First Officer position with Air France, was named Music Director of the LA Phil(!), succeeding the great Gustavo Dudamel. Maestro Daniel Harding: music nerd and former student pilot, who has reached the pinnacle achievement in one of the most hyper-competitive, hyper-demanding professions in existence, while also working as an airline pilot. So what, exactly, is the problem with "band nerds?"

Your student sounds like a kid who needs something that you are unable and/or unwilling to give. The best thing you can do is let him find a CFI who can and will provide the kind of instruction that he needs.
Click to expand...
I obviously keep it professional with him, but I thought this was a forum I can speak my mind with other CFI's. He is very smart, otherwise he would not be graduating hs early. Trying to figure out how we got off the topic of his parents demanding he solo when he is unable to communicate on the radio despite numerous lessons of us talking about what to say and when, both on the ground and in the air. My question was simply dealing with helicopter parents.
 
Last edited:
"I want to solo your kid and I will do so as soon as he has demonstrated he can solo safely."

I would then proceed to explain that it's rare for a student to achieve these things within these minimum flight hours. I would offer to fly more and do some more ground sessions to help him get through the process faster but emphasize that you will absolutely not compromise his safety for the sake of expediency. If that's not good enough then I feel like the parents are probably beyond reasoning with.
 
I suspect the parents are thinking of the college essay as the rationale for the solo thing. "I soloed an airplane in X hours" is something unique and potentially differentiating at a competitive, non-aviation college. Having said that, tough crap. Tell the parents he needs to earn it.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I obviously keep it professional with him,
Click to expand...
That's not so obvious, from this thread.
Princesspilot206 said:
but I thought this was a forum I can speak my mind with other CFI's.
Click to expand...
It is. And it's a forum where other CFI's can speak their minds in reply.
Princesspilot206 said:
Trying to figure out how we got off the topic
Click to expand...
From my perspective, post #18.

But you've been offered some good advice by several members, for your consideration.
 
Hang 4 said:
I suspect the parents are thinking of the college essay as the rationale for the solo thing. "I soloed an airplane in X hours" is something unique and potentially differentiating at a competitive, non-aviation college.
Click to expand...
I predict that once the parents realize the colleges aren’t going to ask to see a logbook, they’ll stop complaining.

And they’ll instruct junior to write that he soloed in 7.2 hours.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I obviously keep it professional with him, but I thought this was a forum I can speak my mind with other CFI's. He is very smart, otherwise he would not be graduating hs early. Trying to figure out how we got off the topic of his parents demanding he solo when he is unable to communicate on the radio despite numerous lessons of us talking about what to say and when, both on the ground and in the air. My question was simply dealing with helicopter parents.
Click to expand...
I would say we got off the topic of the parents when you called him "a band nerd". I flew for a Commuter and one of our pilots also played violin for the Boston Pops as well as filling in as the Conductor. The fact that your Student is also a Musician has nothing to do with his capabilities as a pilot. The fact that you don't respect that may be why he hasn't progressed.
 
jayhawk74 said:
I would say we got off the topic of the parents when you called him "a band nerd". I flew for a Commuter and one of our pilots also played violin for the Boston Pops as well as filling in as the Conductor. The fact that your Student is also a Musician has nothing to do with his capabilities as a pilot. The fact that you don't respect that may be why he hasn't progressed.
Click to expand...
Fundamentals of Instruction, distilled to its most fundamental point: “I can teach you Ancient Philosophy in 46 hours. I could teach Japanese to a monkey in 46 hours. The key is just finding a way to relate to the material.”

This thread isn’t about the instructor’s ability to help this particular student relate to the material, although the disconnect between “professional” and “respect” does point to an issue there. It’s about the instructor’s ability to manage client expectations. Doing that when the payor and learner aren’t the same person, especially when the relationship is parent-teenager, can be a real challenge.

That’s not unique to flight instruction. It even happens in marching band.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I obviously keep it professional with him, but I thought this was a forum I can speak my mind with other CFI's.
Click to expand...
Internal disrespect is also disrespect. And it will impact your behavior towards him.

There's plenty of examples of A-type (also A-hole) pilots that caused high-profile airliner crashes. They use them as the bad examples at CRM courses.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Yes, I certainly like my pilots who lack confidence and are unable to take charge of situations.
Click to expand...

Princess, I'm not trying to insult you, but I'd like to point out that you don't seem to be confident and to be taking charge of this situation, even though its your obligation as CFI to do so.
 
I can size up anyone and label them, even myself. Im not saying marching band nerd in an insulting manner. Its an observation of a matter of fact. Shoot, I play the hell out of the trumpet too! Not quite as good as Miles Davis, but almost. My point was he is a very akward young kid that fears others hear him talk on the radio. Its nothing I cant help him with. The matter is already handled. Tomorrow he has the chance to prove himself by flying with another instructor to assess his skills. If he gets the green light, then he solos.
 
Last edited:
AV8R_87 said:
Internal disrespect is also disrespect. And it will impact your behavior towards him.

There's plenty of examples of A-type (also A-hole) pilots that caused high-profile airliner crashes. They use them as the bad examples at CRM courses.
Click to expand...
My observation: in a multi-pilot crew environment the Type-A (or Alpha) pilot will kill you, whereas the Type-B will let you kill yourself. While there may not be a data set to draw conclusions from, I'd wager that more human factors related GA accidents can be attributed to Type-A personality traits than Type-B.

To paraphrase Harry Callahan, a pilot's gotta know his/her limitations. Pilots should all engage in honest self-assessment in an effort to recognize, acknowledge, and understand our own personality traits, especially those that may put us at risk.
 
Half Fast said:
Princess, I'm not trying to insult you, but I'd like to point out that you don't seem to be confident and to be taking charge of this situation, even though its your obligation as CFI to do so.
Click to expand...
I have never been in a situation with parents like this. No where in CFI training do they teach you how to deal helicopter parents.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Trying to figure out how we got off the topic of his parents demanding he solo
Click to expand...
It's pretty clear you drove that train off the tracks yourself with your high school-level implied insult of "band nerd". Hopefully as you get older you will grow out of trying to fit in with the cool kids at school by insulting others who have varying interests, but some people never do. There are lots of pilots (and other successful people throughout society) who were "band nerds" or "chess club nerds" or "DND nerds" or "yearbook staff nerds" or "theater nerds" or whatever other club/activity/group you held disdain for in high school.

Heck, regarding "marching band nerds" specifically, these are people who can multitask (march to a specific spot on the field by memory, play an instrument by memory, keep in step with others and do it all within the timing and tempo of the music), have a good memory (there's no music on the field), show up on time, work long and hard hours in practice both together and separately, work together as a team, and often lead their sections or the entire band (e.g. drum majors) through drills and rehearsals.
 
Last edited:
Princesspilot206 said:
I can size up anyone and label them,
Click to expand...
You can, but that doesn't mean that you should.
Princesspilot206 said:
The matter is already handled. Tomorrow he has the chance to prove himself by flying with another instructor to assess his skills. If he gets the green light, then he solos.
Click to expand...
That's good news.
Princesspilot206 said:
Though I am holding him to a very high standard going forward since both he and his parents think he is worthy of it.
Click to expand...
Why not just hold him to the same standards that are contained in the syllabus, and ultimately the ACS?
Princesspilot206 said:
I have never been in a situation with parents like this. No where in CFI training do they teach you how to deal helicopter parents.
Click to expand...
On this point, you have my sympathy (for what little that may be worth). And if the parents are as bad as your posts suggest, I really feel bad for the kid. We can only hope that the experience of flight training, which includes gaining self-confidence and self-reliance through mastering difficult skills etc., will serve as a way for him to break out of the cage that his parents have kept him in. Even if it takes more than 10 hrs. to solo and 45 to the checkride.

>>Note: I had written the preceding before I read your reply to RussR. As the thread continues, it is very apparent that if there's an "a hole" here, it isn't RussR.
 
Last edited:
RussR said:
It's pretty clear you drove that train off the tracks yourself with your high school-level implied insult of "band nerd". Hopefully as you get older you will grow out of trying to fit in with the cool kids at school by insulting others who have varying interests, but some people never do. There are lots of pilots (and other successful people throughout society) who were "band nerds" or "chess club nerds" or "DND nerds" or "yearbook staff nerds" or "theater nerds" or whatever other club/activity/group you held disdain for in high school.

Heck, regarding "marching band nerds" specifically, these are people who can multitask (march to a specific spot on the field by memory, play an instrument by memory, keep in step with others and do it all within the timing and tempo of the music), have a good memory (there's no music on the field), show up on time, work long and hard hours in practice both together and separately, work together as a team, and often lead their sections or the entire band (e.g. drum majors) through drills and rehearsals.
Click to expand...
Damn, I typed that exact same message and decided to not post it.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
he is a very akward young kid that fears others hear him talk on the radio
Click to expand...
It's called stage fright. It's something he's not experienced before, and potentially hundreds of strangers could hear him screw up. Practice will fix it. A couple comforting words from the CFI will help.

Happens a lot. Just because it didn't happen to you, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I was a teenager in front of a 2000 Watt (your airplane radio is 10 Watts on a good day) transmitter, knowing that once I push the transmit switch an entire continent will hear me f-up. Now THAT's stage fright.
 
AV8R_87 said:
It's called stage fright. It's something he's not experienced before, and potentially hundreds of strangers could hear him screw up. Practice will fix it. A couple comforting words from the CFI will help.

Happens a lot. Just because it didn't happen to you, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I was a teenager in front of a 2000 Watt (your airplane radio is 10 Watts on a good day) transmitter, knowing that once I push the transmit switch an entire continent will hear me f-up. Now THAT's stage fright.
Click to expand...
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
 
AV8R_87 said:
I see how respectful you are. Any snapchat posts (in-flight, obviously) where you berate your students yet?
Keep it up, I'm sure you'll be on many pilots' "do not fly with" list.
Click to expand...
Get lost.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I am about ready to pass this kid off to someone else because his parents are basically telling me he has to solo to get into a good college. It would look better on his application. The kid flies...okay...but is shy and hesitates to make calls on the radio. It's beyond me that they do not value their kids safety and are prioritizing some achievement that cant wait.
Click to expand...
So much to unpack here.
1. If a student’s spouse came in making the same demands, what would you do?

2. Does the student even want to be there or is the student doing this for dear old mom & dad?

3. Who’s your client? Mom/dad or the kid?
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I can size up anyone and label them, even myself. Im not saying marching band nerd in an insulting manner. Its an observation of a matter of fact. Shoot, I play the hell out of the trumpet too! Not quite as good as Miles Davis, but almost. My point was he is a very akward young kid that fears others hear him talk on the radio. Its nothing I cant help him with. The matter is already handled. Tomorrow he has the chance to prove himself by flying with another instructor to assess his skills. If he gets the green light, then he solos.
Click to expand...


Over 25 years of instructing, one important thing I've learned is that it's not so much the techniques you teach, but the confidence you instill in your students that makes the real difference. For the overconfident types, that may mean bringing them down a few pegs by exposing them to challenging situations. If this kid lacks confidence, then that's what you need to work on. All the other things we nitpick about, like landing a couple of feet left of the centerline or chastising a student for saying "with you" on the radio, are minor details that won't make an ounce of difference in the long run. The goal is to develop a confident, competent pilot with sound judgment, not one who is terrified of making mistakes.
 
Half Fast said:
I resent your use of the word "only," but setting that aside for the moment......

Why not strap dad in the backseat for a flight and let him see first hand what your concerns are? Is dad flying the RV-8 with the kid and letting him take the controls?
Click to expand...
Resent it all you like, but a private pilot is one of 3 entry level pilot certificates. I suppose you could argue a private a bit better than being only a recreational or only sport pilot. The training for any of these certificate does not include the training of other pilots or the responsibilities of the instructor,
 
Last edited:
GaryM said:
I predict that once the parents realize the colleges aren’t going to ask to see a logbook, they’ll stop complaining.

And they’ll instruct junior to write that he soloed in 7.2 hours.
Click to expand...
Elite colleges have tough selection criteria and one of them may be a selection board. I've spent a lot of time on selection boards (not college) and people may not recognize that selection boards have a problem. They don't want to be wrong. They prefer candidates who tick all the boxes, who look like they will succeed. That said, there will be some obvious admissions and some obvious pass-overs and a larger group than can be admitted in the middle. If you are in the middle, it is to your benefit to have some attribute that makes you memorable and stand out. A pilot's certificate (or Eagle Scout badge or similar) indicates to the selection committee that you are successful in a structured, graded environment. It gives the selection committee the sense that this candidate will or at least can succeed and not make them embarrassed. Having a ticket like a pilot certificate or part of it would not hurt, in my experience. I'll admit I'm biased. Two of my daughters had their private certificate before they applied for college. One was accepted by Wellesley, the other by Carnegie Mellon. So, I admit to bias but feel a unique attribute doesn't hurt.
I'm not defending the parents or knocking the CFI, only that I can see where the parents are coming from. As I posted earlier, FAR 61.87 is where I'd start from. I have 1200 hours dual given, most of it primary.
 
bonefishpete said:
Maybe if you have more than 50 hours to solo the Majors won’t hire you?
Click to expand...
Never seen that on an application, ever. They do. not. care.

jnmeade said:
Elite colleges have tough selection criteria and one of them may be a selection board. I've spent a lot of time on selection boards (not college) and people may not recognize that selection boards have a problem. They don't want to be wrong. They prefer candidates who tick all the boxes, who look like they will succeed. That said, there will be some obvious admissions and some obvious pass-overs and a larger group than can be admitted in the middle. If you are in the middle, it is to your benefit to have some attribute that makes you memorable and stand out. A pilot's certificate (or Eagle Scout badge or similar) indicates to the selection committee that you are successful in a structured, graded environment.
Click to expand...
But in that environment, there is no difference between "This kid has a pilot certificate" and "This kid has a pilot certificate they got in 45 hours after soloing in 10." That committee will not know the difference.

Now, if it's ERAU or UND or another aviation-centric school, maybe that might matter - But they should also know better.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top