Hold short lines that force you onto the parallel taxiway

[G-force]

So here is a pic of a local class D airport KWHP. Single runway, parallel taxiway Alpha. When exiting the runway the hold short bars are at taxiway alpha requiring you to pull onto Alpha to clear the runway. My question on what to do during a busy day as to be legal you appear to be required to enter taxiway Alpha, stop, contact ground. What if there is already traffic on Alpha? Pull in front of them and stop and hope they see you? Stop on the taxiway Bravo, Charlie, or Delta before the hold short bars and hope the tower sees you still on the runway before the next plane lands?

 

[mscard88]

Tower and/or ground will tell you what to do. No big deal.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Hold short lines are for traffic entering the runway, not exiting the runway.

 

[luvflyin]

So here is a pic of a local class D airport KWHP. Single runway, parallel taxiway Alpha. When exiting the runway the hold short bars are at taxiway alpha requiring you to pull onto Alpha to clear the runway. My question on what to do during a busy day as to be legal you appear to be required to enter taxiway Alpha, stop, contact ground. What if there is already traffic on Alpha? Pull in front of them and stop and hope they see you? Stop on the taxiway Bravo, Charlie, or Delta before the hold short bars and hope the tower sees you still on the runway before the next plane lands?

Cross the lines. AIM 4-3-20. Of course you wouldn’t T-Bone another plane on the Taxiway. Tower usually will be aware of what’s happening, working with Ground (sometimes he is both) and give you some instructions. Usually.

 

[Shawn]

Absent instruction from tower...clear runway and cross hold sort lines ASAP...stop, then on to Ground for further instructions. It is their job to choreograph the dance not yours.

Now, you are not gonna hit another plane if he is there...but you are better to potentially block a taxi way rather then a runway. Get yer arse off the runway and clear, that is priority.

Ground may very well have given other traffic instructions to give way to you. If ever unsure, ask. Never take action and assume you are helping the situation.

 

[asicer]

Absent instruction from tower...clear runway and cross hold sort lines ASAP...stop, then on to Ground for further instructions.

As I recall, you aren't supposed to switch to ground until tower tells you to.

 

[Shawn]

As I recall, you aren't supposed to switch to ground until tower tells you to.

AIM 4-3-20 States: d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

It is when that instruction never comes to switch what is the appropriate step to take next when you are parked clear of the hold short line? See debate on subject here:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/switching-to-ground.111390/

I fly into many towered airports. Absent any instructions, once I clear the runway, stop, clean up plane and get ready to taxi if I have not heard an instruction I switch to Ground and advise. Is that correct?...Although not directly stated one could infer from the AIM recommendation one should query tower first, but I have never been admonished for not doing that yet. Now that takes some common sense like no parallel runways, listing to tower for what is happening and getting situational awareness, being aware of your scenario if that is appropriate...many will say make the switch rather than just sit there and wait or bug tower for what you know is coming.

But the point of my previous post to the OP was to get the heck of the runway first and foremost.

 

[asicer]

But the point of my previous post to the OP was to get the heck of the runway first and foremost.

On this point I wholeheartedly agree. I would even add that if you might be blocking the guy behind you from crossing the line then pull up a bit, too.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Pull onto the taxiway. If someone is there, time your roll. In most scenarios, taxing off a runway into an airplane is a bad idea.
From there the controller will work a way for the two of you to pass each other.
Follow instructions and try not to make things more complicated than they are

 

[arnoha]

Get off the runway first, like others have said. Standard practice would be to stop immediately absent any further instruction. KRHV, where I used to be based, recently was forced to do this standard. Previous local practice was to clear past the first taxiway and wait in the area between the two parallel taxiways, as you wouldn't block anything there. FAA was apparently unhappy with this practice and it's an FAA tower. KPAO, where I'm based now, also has this issue. Local practice is to always turn left onto the taxiway, and the unique shape of the airport makes this the obvious and only choice. Still, the priority is to clear the runway.

Both airports used to run with the non-standard practice of having tower retain control of the immediate parallel taxiway. As they're both airports with a very high percentage of training traffic, taxi-backs are very common and it's annoying to switch frequencies constantly. PAO (still an FAA tower) has mostly retained this practice. RHV (FAA tower also) was forced to switch. Not sure what the rationale for each was.

 

[dmspilot]

If the tower wanted to, they could tell you "Turn left on Delta hold short of Alpha" for example. Otherwise fully clear the runway.

 

[azure]

This is the situation at KPTK. The local practice there is to hold short of the parallel taxiway with your airplane straddling the hold short line, and contact Ground before proceeding. You aren't supposed to block the taxiway, or turn onto it without instructions from Ground. In all the time I flew in that area there was no mention of this on ATIS. And yes, this is contrary to regs and would seem to be an incursion waiting to happen, yet somehow, I've never heard of a case of this happening. (Not saying it hasn't, of course, and it would seem that it almost certainly has.)

I was taught this local practice by my first CFI during primary training - I would hate to be a naive transient landing there for the first time.

 

[mscard88]

I'm gonna tell y'all a big secret. @Timbeck2 told me not to but I'm gonna do it anyway. That ground controller is standing about 6' away from the tower (local) controller. And they talk to each other. Shhh it's a secret. You're welcome.

 

[midwestpa24]

I'm gonna tell y'all a big secret. @Timbeck2 told me not to but I'm gonna do it anyway. That ground controller is standing about 6' away from the tower (local) controller. And they talk to each other. Shhh it's a secret. You're welcome.

Well thats how its supposed to work...in theory.

 

[Bill]

Hold short lines are for traffic entering the runway, not exiting the runway.

Right. You can cross without clearance dashed side to solid side, but you need clearance to cross a solid line.

 

[Sluggo63]

This is the situation at KPTK. The local practice there is to hold short of the parallel taxiway with your airplane straddling the hold short line, and contact Ground before proceeding. You aren't supposed to block the taxiway, or turn onto it without instructions from Ground. In all the time I flew in that area there was no mention of this on ATIS. And yes, this is contrary to regs and would seem to be an incursion waiting to happen, yet somehow, I've never heard of a case of this happening. (Not saying it hasn't, of course, and it would seem that it almost certainly has.)

I was taught this local practice by my first CFI during primary training - I would hate to be a naive transient landing there for the first time.

There's no way I'd leave myself straddling the hold short line while I waited for ground. I'd rather block the parallel than have half the airplane on the runway side of a hold short. But that's just me...

 

[azure]

There's no way I'd leave myself straddling the hold short line while I waited for ground. I'd rather block the parallel than have half the airplane on the runway side of a hold short. But that's just me...

Me too -- anywhere else but KPTK. If you did that at KPTK, according to my first CFI, you would get very sharp words from the controller - either Tower or (more likely) Ground.

Considering how nonstandard this is, I'm surprised it hasn't been changed by now. Maybe it has, I haven't been there in about 4 years. But it hadn't in the 12 years I'd been flying, many times to KPTK, before that.

 

[luvflyin]

This is the situation at KPTK. The local practice there is to hold short of the parallel taxiway with your airplane straddling the hold short line, and contact Ground before proceeding. You aren't supposed to block the taxiway, or turn onto it without instructions from Ground. In all the time I flew in that area there was no mention of this on ATIS. And yes, this is contrary to regs and would seem to be an incursion waiting to happen, yet somehow, I've never heard of a case of this happening. (Not saying it hasn't, of course, and it would seem that it almost certainly has.)

I was taught this local practice by my first CFI during primary training - I would hate to be a naive transient landing there for the first time.

How long ago was that? Runway incursion became a big deal a few years ago. It was like the FAA’s poster child for awhile. They may not be conducting business like that nowadays

 

[Shawn]

Me too -- anywhere else but KPTK. If you did that at KPTK, according to my first CFI, you would get very sharp words from the controller - either Tower or (more likely) Ground.

Sharp words do not change the fact that absent other instructions you can cross a dashed line without authorization.

 

[azure]

How long ago was that? Runway incursion became a big deal a few years ago. It was like the FAA’s poster child for awhile. They may not be conducting business like that nowadays

That was circa 2002. As I said in my last post, they may have changed their practice recently, but it would have to be quite recently, as in last 5 years. I'm pretty sure it was still local practice in the 2012-2013 time frame.

 

[azure]

Sharp words do not change the fact that absent other instructions you can cross a dashed line without authorization.

Legally, yes. You still might not want to, though, from what I was taught.

 

[mscard88]

Me too -- anywhere else but KPTK. If you did that at KPTK, according to my first CFI, you would get very sharp words from the controller - either Tower or (more likely) Ground.

Considering how nonstandard this is, I'm surprised it hasn't been changed by now. Maybe it has, I haven't been there in about 4 years. But it hadn't in the 12 years I'd been flying, many times to KPTK, before that.

I'd suggest meeting with the tower chief and discuss the issue. Even better if there were a group of pilots who attended. Invite the airport manager too.

 

[Grum.Man]

The reality is that in this case if the controller doesn't want you on the taxiway he will say to hold short then contact ground. Since you are not clear of the runway there shouldn't be any other departing or landing traffic until you do so. If no instructions are given I would continue onto the taxiway to be clear of the runway.

 

[azure]

I'd suggest meeting with the tower chief and discuss the issue. Even better if there were a group of pilots who attended. Invite the airport manager too.

That was my thought too, and I wonder whether this was ever done, and what came out of it if it was. Hard to imagine the suggestion never came up. It's out of my hands now of course, but something for local pilots to consider if that is still the expected practice.

 

[Ghery]

I'm gonna tell y'all a big secret. @Timbeck2 told me not to but I'm gonna do it anyway. That ground controller is standing about 6' away from the tower (local) controller. And they talk to each other. Shhh it's a secret. You're welcome.

At KOLM they are the same person. Transmits the same information on both tower and ground frequencies, only hears the appropriate transmissions on the appropriate frequencies. And you can leave the runway on a taxiway without hearing anything from the tower, but woe be to you if you leave rwy 17/35 on runway 8 without clearance.

 

[Eric Gleason]

When exiting the runway, you're not clear of it until you cross the hold short lines. I'd cross those lines unless given other instructions, and I suspect most other pilots new to the airport would too. If ground doesn't want you to do that, then it's their responsibility to coordinate with tower to make sure you receive those instructions.

I try to ask tower while rolling out where they want me to exit, but I'm not always that far ahead of things.

 

[Kritchlow]

When exiting the runway, you're not clear of it until you cross the hold short lines. I'd cross those lines unless given other instructions, and I suspect most other pilots new to the airport would too. If ground doesn't want you to do that, then it's their responsibility to coordinate with tower to make sure you receive those instructions.

I try to ask tower while rolling out where they want me to exit, but I'm not always that far ahead of things.

That’s not true according to several controllers here.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I'm gonna tell y'all a big secret. @Timbeck2 told me not to but I'm gonna do it anyway. That ground controller is standing about 6' away from the tower (local) controller. And they talk to each other. Shhh it's a secret. You're welcome.

Sometimes they are sitting in the same chair. At KLUK, I've called clearance delivery, ground, and tower, and got the same person.

 

[mscard88]

Sometimes they are sitting in the same chair. At KLUK, I've called clearance deliver, ground, and tower, and got the same person.

When traffic is slow or other than peak hours that's the case often. Or one is on a potty break, eating, etc. Most towers have at least two controllers on duty, not sure about contract towers. Being Air Force we were required to have two fully rated controllers, usually a Watch Supervisor and a journeyman controller. Usually more as there is always training going on.

 

[Sluggo63]

That’s not true according to several controllers here.

Really? So taxiing for departure, it’d be okay with them if I taxi TO the runway and park with half the airplane over the hold short line?

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Really? So taxiing for departure, it’d be okay with them if I taxi TO the runway and park with half the airplane over the hold short line?

If a controller really wants to go through the hassle of filling out violation paperwork because I completly vacated a runway after landing and coincidently blocked a taxiway, without being given any instructions in contrary... They can have at it, total waste of time.
Remember those guys are people too, when people make mistakes or something doesn't go exactly the way they want, their tone of voice can change. They aren't necessarily condeming you.
Airports like Whitman clearly have enough space between parking and the taxiway for two planes to pass. They aren't required to keep everyone on the yellow line. Just don't run into other airplanes "I ran into him because I had to exit the runway" is a terrible excuse for an accident.
This thread seems to be running on the idea that people are leaving runways and taxiing without being aware of their surroundings and just blindly trusting the tarmac in front of them will be empty.

 

[Eric Gleason]

That’s not true according to several controllers here.

Just because they say it, doesn't mean it's right. Do they have a published local procedure anywhere? How would they expect transient pilots to know this?

I wouldn't get in a ****ing match about it, but a nicely-worded letter or call to the tower chief sending the message "Us pilots are confused because we get scolded by your guys if we follow what the AIM says to do."

The AIM is pretty specific about it.

4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.

NOTE− 1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required. 2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is considered an integral part of the landing clearance and satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.

c. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

NOTE− 1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control. 2. Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking. That clearance does not authorize the aircraft to “enter” or “cross” any runways. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.

 

[Kritchlow]

Really? So taxiing for departure, it’d be okay with them if I taxi TO the runway and park with half the airplane over the hold short line?

The hold bars are gospel for entering the runway, not vacating the runway. The white edge line is used for exiting.
That is according to the controllers on POA.

 

[Kritchlow]

Just because they say it, doesn't mean it's right. Do they have a published local procedure anywhere? How would they expect transient pilots to know this?

I wouldn't get in a ****ing match about it, but a nicely-worded letter or call to the tower chief sending the message "Us pilots are confused because we get scolded by your guys if we follow what the AIM says to do."

The AIM is pretty specific about it.

4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.

NOTE− 1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required. 2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is considered an integral part of the landing clearance and satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.

c. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

NOTE− 1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control. 2. Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking. That clearance does not authorize the aircraft to “enter” or “cross” any runways. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.

See my answer above.
Trust me, this was a new one on me up until a thread on POA a few months back.

 

[Grum.Man]

I got my chops busted on my private checkride when I announced clear of the runway before being completely past the hold short bars. It is now a pet peeve of mine when someone says they are clear before being all the way past the hold short lines.

 

[Eric Gleason]

See my answer above.
Trust me, this was a new one on me up until a thread on POA a few months back.

Did the controllers provide a source that supercedes the AIM?

 

[luvflyin]

Did the controllers provide a source that supercedes the AIM?

No. Nothing in the AIM was superseded. The hold lines are the gospel for 'exiting' the runway. Exiting is what the pilot does. His reference to the white line is that controllers may 'consider' an aircraft clear of the runway when it is past the runway edge and there are no restrictions that require the pilot to be a sinner and defy gospel. Nothing in the thread a few months ago said anything different.

AIM 4-3-20
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise
directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the
runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the
runway edge and there are no restrictions to its
continued movement beyond the runway holding
position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions,
the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing
runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding
position markings associated with the landing
runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude
into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all
parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding
position markings, the pilot must hold unless further
instructions have been issued by ATC.

 

[Eric Gleason]

The part you underlined means that the airplane is expected to continue to move beyond the hold short lines. Absent any other instructions from ATC, that's what we're supposed to do.

It sounds like a case of "I learned it from Charlie, who learned it from Roger, who says he once talked to Lindbergh, and this is the way we've always done it."

How would a transient pilot know that this is not what they expect?

 

[luvflyin]

The part you underlined means that the airplane is expected to continue to move beyond the hold short lines. Absent any other instructions from ATC, that's what we're supposed to do.

It sounds like a case of "I learned it from Charlie, who learned it from Roger, who says he once talked to Lindbergh, and this is the way we've always done it."

How would a transient pilot know that this is not what they expect?

That situation at KPTK is another story. They have no right to be assuming a transient pilot is aware of their made up 'gospel.' If they are still doing that they may have some 'splainin' to do someday. Things like this is what the ASRS is about.

 

[azure]

There are at least a couple of SE Michigan pilots here, I wonder if one of them could comment on whether this is still the practice at KPTK?

Since I practically learned there, I always knew the local procedure, but if I had been a transient pilot caught by that "gospel", I would sure as heck have made a stink about it.