Heartbroken student

Vance,

I disagree. I am not a CFI, however I come from a family of teachers and professors.
The teaching method must match the student. If you do not, efficiency degrades considerably. Often teachers know multiple ways to solve or answer a problem; the teacher is responsible for picking a technique the student understands.
In the case of the OP, reading how the teacher failed to explain and how the OP approaches this with analysis, there was a definite failure to teach to the student.
I met with about six CFIs before I picked the one who instructed me. I spent more time on ground school compared to others, but I then spent less time in the air because I understood how things work.

Tim

I am trying to figure out what part of my post you disagree with Tim.

I am pointing out that not following the instructor’s syllabus may take more time.

I shared that I felt learning his way can still produce a good pilot.

My client understands these things.

I didn’t write that Subhro Kar’s original instructor did a good job.

I even shared that I had not found a reason to yell at my client.

I wasn’t there so I don’t know enough to condem Subhro Kar’s CFI.
 
Pm me. I'm in Seattle, I manage engineers, and I will buy you lunch.

I'm not a CFI, but I will get you back on your feet (or wings, so to speak).

The pilot community is too small, there's no reason to loose another.
 
Wait, .....what? You're the customer! You're not at some kinda pilot mill operations that cranks out zero-to-CFI in no time flat. Its part-61 (read part-time) operation. I would not stand for that. Take your dollars else where.
 
I am trying to figure out what part of my post you disagree with Tim.

I am pointing out that not following the instructor’s syllabus may take more time.

I shared that I felt learning his way can still produce a good pilot.

My client understands these things.

I didn’t write that Subhro Kar’s original instructor did a good job.

I even shared that I had not found a reason to yell at my client.

I wasn’t there so I don’t know enough to condem Subhro Kar’s CFI.
You stated the OP was willful and not willing to follow directions.
That is not the problem. The CFI fundamentally did not teach the student based on the material posted. (Always possible the OP is completely off base in presentation, but the magnitude of the failure to teach to the student likely precludes this)

Tim

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As an engineer I have to tell you that trying to learn to fly by only procedures and numbers is very tough. Your example of rotating at 55 is a good example. Compare it to learning to drive a car. You don't get in the car and push the accelerator pedal down exactly 1/4 of the way while staring at the speedometer until it reaches 25mph. You get in and step on the pedal until it feels like you are accelerating at a steady pace, let off when you feel like it is accelerating too fast, and then occasionally look down at the speedometer when it feels like you are around 25mph. Both ways will get you there but it is far easier to get the feel first and then focus on exact numbers later. Things may also change from day to day. Density altitude may make it so that 55mph is too slow to rotate or you may have a hard crosswind and need some extra speed for better control before pulling the nosewheeel off. You need to feel when the plane is ready to fly. The numbers should be used as a reference but try to focus on what you feel rather than just what the airspeed indicator says.

I agree that the guys pricing method seems like a scam. If you soloed in 10 hours you pay him $1500 or $150 an hour. If you solo in 15 you paid him $100 an hour. Most of the good instructors around here are about $50 an hour. I bet he kicks every student he has that doesn't solo in 15 hours out of his program. I didn't solo until close to 20 hours but when I needed some time away from landings to get the fun back in flying we took some of those 20 hours and started on navigation and short cross countries. You can't do that with his method of payment. The best you can do is to suck up the money you have lost so far, focus on what you did learn, and go find a new instructor that is good fit for you.

Keith
 
The plane your are likely flying is not complex - it doesn't require strict attention to numbers, and, in fact, most of the numbers you will see are approximate. The airspeed, altimeter, and heading are "kinda close", but have lags, mechanical errors, etc. Give "rates" more attention, like how quickly the airspeed is falling/rising, or how fast the altimeter is unwinding. If you glanced at a gauge a couple seconds ago, and the needle wasn't moving, you can take some time to look at other stuff.

Also, my intuition is you are flying "stressed" (macho code-word for scared), and that affects your attention and coordination. It will/will certainly also affect your ability to learn and retain. But that's cool, most student pilots have that fear to some degree or other. Chill a bit; a 150 or 172 can kill you, but you have to work at it; and most CFIs won't let you kill them, either. Nothing is gonna happen in that airplane that requires split-second, Chuck Yeager like action on your part. . .

If you can ride a bike, or walk and chew gum at the same time, you have the physical coordination to fly a training airplane. You can master that aspect, no problem. You may/may need to confirm you can overcome the "stress" effects. But 15 hours of dual isn't nearly enough time to base that decision on.

So, your CFI isn't/wasn't a good match (nice as I can put it) - unless you are/are remarkably uncoordinated and emotionally fragile, you can get past this. I don;lt like him setting some arbitrary hours mark; It may be he thinks you're wasting your time, and don't have "it" - but try another CFI before you thrown in the towel. It just hasn't been long enough to write you off.
 
Jeeze, ok after those facts I take back what I said. Sounds to me like a scammer. @Subhro Kar, sorry your intro to aviation has been so bad. There are way more good than bad guys in aviation- sounds like you found a minority "bad" guy. Good luck finding another instructor- if you tell us what part of the country you live in I'm sure someone here can make a good recommendation for you.

Oh- and sue him for your log book back. A well worded letter from an attorney will I'm sure scare your instructor to send it to your promptly.
 
You stated the OP was willful and not willing to follow directions.
That is not the problem. The CFI fundamentally did not teach the student based on the material posted. (Always possible the OP is completely off base in presentation, but the magnitude of the failure to teach to the student likely precludes this)

Tim

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Thank you for clearing that up Tim.

Willful and not willing to follow directions are your words, no mine

Subhro Kar stated that he wanted to learn his way and with his priorities.

I was trying to share both the down side and the upside of that plan.

I feel the CFI was not well suited to the student.

The plan is to change instructors; Subhro Kar will still be the pilot under instruction.

I feel there is not much point in condemning the CFI further.
 
@Subhro Kar it took me about 42.9 hours before I soloed. I didn't get my PPL until I had about 85 hours.

The day I soloed I had 53 landings, 34 takeoffs about 8.8 hours of night and 1.3 of simulated instrument time.

10 hours may be the minimum and maybe I could have soloed at 10, but why rush it? Who are you beating by doing it quicker? Who cares?

I went through almost a dozen instructors between the time I picked up flying again at the end of 2014 and when I got my commercial license about 2 years later. I do want to eventually become a CFI, though I just can't afford it at the moment. Your situation frustrates me because I have taught classes in the past and I ALWAYS let the student set the pace and the style of learning. I've taught kids and at one point I taught a 100 year old lady. You can't apply the same technique across the board, there is not some magical formula to use.

As a teacher, you also have to be willing to learn. It takes patience, empathy, confidence and skill. Not all those who can do, should teach.
 
Well, he would have dumped me for not soloing soon enough. Flying is weird in that their are a lot of rules and established practices but, don't over think some things. Yes, their are "numbers" to fly by which I recommend (i'm not a cfi) knowing and being able to hit routinely. For instance, their are established airspeed and flap settings for a normal lap in the pattern. But, then you are asked to fly a short approach for traffic or its gusty, or extending downwind for traffic, or switch runways or... That's why "feel" or what I see as a true understanding of what's actually happening matters.

As for CFi's, I flew with several to get my PPL. First moved away after about 8 or 9 hours, second got me through all my required stuff but was super pregnant at that point so I polished up with anyone who was available through the school. While it added time, it was awesome because by that point I had a good understanding of the plane, its abilities, my abilities, and the checkride requirements while I got to hear variations from other skilled instructors. There was one instructor who i just didn't mesh with, only flew together once. Btw, I got to fly with my primary instructor after almost two years to wrap up some wings credit stuff and it was so much fun talking plane stuff with her again. So you didn't lose anything unless you quit. Don't quit!
 
Did he actually yell? You have to be corrected to get better, it's part of the process and you are the student, expecting him to teach you your way when you are learning something new is just not smart. Other than that, the CFI sounds like an expensive jerk, find someone else and do what they tell you to do, learn the instructor's way, not your way, a CFI most likely has taught this many times before, you are learning something new, you don't have a way.
Well, there may be a cultural element here, but the instructor is a tool in any language. OP, your logbook is your property, I don't know where the school gets off holding it hostage, as a student it must be in your possession to fly solo.

BTW, flying is a numbers game. If you want to fly by feel, get a hang glider.
 
Well, there may be a cultural element here, but the instructor is a tool in any language. OP, your logbook is your property, I don't know where the school gets off holding it hostage, as a student it must be in your possession to fly solo.

BTW, flying is a numbers game. If you want to fly by feel, get a hang glider.


I agree about the log book, in fact I would out them on that move alone.
 
I checked my log book. 20 hrs. Maybe I am a dope, but my instructor did not give up on me. Going on my long solo cross country this weekend.
 
BTW, flying is a numbers game. If you want to fly by feel, get a hang glider.

And even then, on your first few flights they'll put one of these on your downtube so you can get a feel for what different speeds feel like.

long_bracket.jpg
 
And even then, on your first few flights they'll put one of these on your downtube so you can get a feel for what different speeds feel like.

long_bracket.jpg

do you mean pitot tube by downtube? That means I have no air speed or VSI, is it?
 
Oh, and expect your instructor to cover up all the instruments to *challenge* your numbers brain eventually. Because you *can* fly the airplane without staring at those gauges. Mine used a jacket. Covered the whole panel and said, "Ok, now feel the airplane, and fly the pattern, and land." You'll have to go through that. And it'll be memorable. :)

 
Hmmm, disagree. I had a difficult time with trim until I learned the feel.
Well, trim is a "feel" item; goal being to eliminate pressure on the yoke. No one puts a force gauge on it!
 
do you mean pitot tube by downtube? That means I have no air speed or VSI, is it?

It's just a very simple airspeed indicator powered by air pressure. On an HG, most stall at about 15-16mph, trim at 18-20mph, a good speed for newbies to fly is ~22mph, to keep you above stall. They put these on the downtube so you can get used to what finger pressure and wind feels like a the various speeds.
 
Hmmm, disagree. I had a difficult time with trim until I learned the feel.
agreed. I tried chasing that number in G1000 and kept overcorrecting when I saw a small deviation. ended up being chasing airspeed and glued to the TV until CFI turned the darn thing off on my 6 hr mark and made me fly back from practice area without any instruments. well, there was the backup, but at that point I completely forgot about the analog gauges. may be with experience you can chase and hold to your numbers, but for a new pilot chasing 90 kts and trying to correct when its 87, didn't work for me. now that I am in analog world... none of them matter anyway since the gauge itself is not accurate as a digital readout
 
agreed. I tried chasing that number in G1000 and kept overcorrecting when I saw a small deviation. ended up being chasing airspeed and glued to the TV until CFI turned the darn thing off on my 6 hr mark and made me fly back from practice area without any instruments. well, there was the backup, but at that point I completely forgot about the analog gauges. may be with experience you can chase and hold to your numbers, but for a new pilot chasing 90 kts and trying to correct when its 87, didn't work for me. now that I am in analog world... none of them matter anyway since the gauge itself is not accurate as a digital readout

Not to cast aspersions on anyone, but I have to wonder if this is a big reason that it's been taking an increasingly longer time to solo.

BTW, analog gauges are just as accurate as "digital" gauges.
 
Not to cast aspersions on anyone, but I have to wonder if this is a big reason that it's been taking an increasingly longer time to solo.

BTW, analog gauges are just as accurate as "digital" gauges.
for my case - YES. I spent too much time glued to G1000 and it was nothing but a distraction when I started, its probably still is, but I don't fly it anymore, so donno, but my flying got whole lot better looking at the "other" artificial horizon right in front of me. I work in computers all day long and digital displays draws my attention quite a bit.

Yeah, I meant to say, when you look at analog gauge you know you are very close to 90, you don't know if you are 87 or 89 or 92. for a number chasing guy, it matters a lot. another problem is if you are chasing perfection. I did that too. I was looking for perfect greaser landing, where you just kiss the ground and kept comparing my landings to my CFI's (he has 11k of them). once I voiced it out, he asked me to go to the FBO and got out of the plane.
 
If I spent a bunch of internet time whining about things that haven't gone my way in life I'd have been awfully busy typing.

Get over it. Move on.
 
@Subhro Kar it took me about 42.9 hours before I soloed. I didn't get my PPL until I had about 85 hours.

The day I soloed I had 53 landings, 34 takeoffs about 8.8 hours of night and 1.3 of simulated instrument time.

How did you end up with 53 landings but only 34 takeoffs? o_O

Did you count all of your bounces as landings but not takeoffs? :D
 
I have trouble believing in the original story, I think something is missing here. I soloed at 16 hrs, probably close to average. Perhaps both student and instructor realized they aren't getting along and decided to part ways. Perhaps even the student 'fired' the instructor - you have every right to do so. But this line that CFI kicked student out for not soloing in 10 hrs - I don't buy it.
 
I'm tempted to call the CFI and ask him what happens if I start training with him, what are the stage checks, and what happens if things take longer than usual.
I think that would be a good idea. But most likely he will ask you to show up in person. But absolutely go for it if you feel like.
 
Well, trim is a "feel" item; goal being to eliminate pressure on the yoke. No one puts a force gauge on it!
But you said it was all numbers...

And Century did put a force gauge on it with some of their equipment.
 
People and CFI's all come in different shapes and sizes and ability. Due to rapid turn over I had three different instructors at my small airport...first one was great...next one would never let me have the controls. I felt as if I was paying just to have him gather some log time. I was going to quit, when fortunately he left. The last one was a mild person who could not bring himself to tell me what to do...just sat there and asked me what I wanted to do....I persisted and now have 850 or so hours in two planes I built. Hang in there.
 
Dang it, Washington is a Two-Party consent state so I can't tape the audio of the the call. Much less fun that way.

@denverpilot - you know telephony... any wiggle room for me on that?
 
Dang it, Washington is a Two-Party consent state so I can't tape the audio of the the call. Much less fun that way.

@denverpilot - you know telephony... any wiggle room for me on that?
Conference me in and you and I can consent. Two party consent. Lol. J/k
 
Dang it, Washington is a Two-Party consent state so I can't tape the audio of the the call. Much less fun that way.

@denverpilot - you know telephony... any wiggle room for me on that?
The way around is that you are in Texas, a one party state.

Call from Texas. Texas laws should apply
 
The way around is that you are in Texas, a one party state.

Call from Texas. Texas laws should apply

Well trying a training in WA from TX is a tough sell IMHO.


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