EminiTrader
Cleared for Takeoff
Fair enough. I'm open to hearing his side before I tell him to get lost. I know I did not solo in 10 hours
Heartbroken student
- Thread starter Subhro Kar
- Start date
danhagan
En-Route
Dang, was this 2006? I think he was at my field too
Student a little ahead of me departed the 150 foot wide runway and never reduced throttle along the way
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Maybe he was a serial plane abuser traveling from airfield to airfield. The story that came out later was that the controller told everyone in the cab to watch the landing since the approach was so bad...
Subhro Kar
Filing Flight Plan
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shutterboy
Aviators/Friends of aviation,
First things first, thanks so much for your nice words. Last night when I wrote the first post, I was feeling like a failure and felt like I would do a favor to the world never trying to get in the left seat. But seeing so many people suggest that maybe, I was not at fault and he was just not the right kind of instructor for me, I feel much more motivated in looking for a better CFI.
One of you have asked for the contact details for my former CFI. The last thing I want is to start a witch hunt here. I just made the post because I was very sad at my failure and thought another aviator might be able to help with CFI suggestions and the morale boosting. That worked and I am very thankful to the community.
A few of the members here had wanted to know the CFIs side of the story. I can't speak his words, but I can tell you the incidents and you can decide for yourself.
I am a software engineer and I like to think I am good at running algorithms.When I started training, I tried to break up the process of flying with important milestones that needs for be achieved. For example, for the airplane I was flying don't rotate unless the needle is at or above 55 mph. My CFI told me that flying is about the feel, so all I have to do is keep the plane on the white stripe with minimal back pressure and the nose will come up when it has to come up. Now, on the contrary I always felt that he was not willing to let me feel how the plane flies for a specific control input even at safe altitudes. And for the most part, I felt he was constantly judging and yelling at me for every small deviation.
My former instructor, lets call him John, does not charge by the hour. His cost structure is, you start training by paying him $1500. When I solo for the first time, he charges me the next installment of $850. The next milestone for payment would be a cross country flight and so on. He told me right in the beginning that he expects me to be able to fly almost independently at 15 hours and would expect me to solo in 10-12 hours. His record is to get students out in 42 hours, something he also mentions on his website and he will not let anyone destroy that average. So, if I do not fly in 15 hours, he will have a hard conversation with me. Now you might tell me I should have stepped away right in the beginning, but again hindsight is always 20/20.
My evaluation of what I could have improved is, I could be more pro-active in my maneuvers, but it is very hard to try out things fearing I would be yelled at or worse thrown out of the program. I learnt how to drive in rallies and ride on tracks only after my car or my motorcycle started talking to me. I never had a chance to listen to the whispers of the airplane.
I will provide my account of the last training yesterday while my memory is fresh and you can help me understand what I could have improved/changed:
I flew from KABC (real ICAO suppressed to maintain anonymity of CFI) to do touch and goes at KAWO. Although John never taught me ground school (he just handed me access codes to King ground school and asked me to ask any questions I had) I have written down all I could figure out about KAWO like the pattern direction, pattern altitude, CTAF and AWOS frequencies before the flight. The wind was 10kt at 6* and I was trying to touch down on RWY 34. While taking off after the first touch down, i drifted away by about 10* from the runway alignment. John yelled at me about that. There was no traffic in the vicinity. Now I like to be very verbose in what I am about to do in the cockpit before I change any configurations. For example, I say on the intercom that I am going to drop power to slow the plane down. John had mentioned to me that I am not being fluid and behaving like a robot. While I was in the downwind he yelled at me because my plane was going fast (at about 90 mph instead of 75) and I was not slowing down quickly. Now when I dropped the power, and was approaching base, I asked if I should put out 10* of flaps. John immediately questioned me where I have learnt that from. My goal was to slow down the airplane and still keep a healthy descent rate. But John insisted on just taking the engine power out and continue descending and only use flaps on final. On the final, he yelled at me because I touched the flaps before enabling carb heat. The temperature was 23* at this time. Now, being yelled at further messed up my confidence and I corrected the previous mistakes but made more mistakes in subsequent touch and goes. After 5 touch and goes, he asked me to head back to KABC.
If I say that John for frustrated at the first mistake, that would not be correct. But he was mostly intimidating me and that was creating pressure on me preventing me from thinking straight. Also, I think he was just not willing to let me try out things and just be there to prevent me from killing myself, wrecking the plane or killing him.
A few other observations, during going through the pre-takeoff checklist, while checking if the ammeter was working and alternator was charging the battery properly, I tried to lower the flaps and raise it back up, probably a bit too fast. John asked, "do you know how much that motor moving the flaps cost? Lowering and raising it back up that costly is going to destroy the motor and then it would be added cost and head ache to him". Also, during starting the engine, I probably looked at the oil pressure gauge at the 35th second but did not make it evident to him that I was looking at it. He told me, if I don't look at the pressure gauge the next time while pointing at it, he will simply throw me out since I was not worth the 24K "rebuilding the engine cost" if something went wrong. Also, yesterday when I made the call to ground control, the ground control just gave me clearance to taxi without reading me weather, that they generally do if I did not mention I had the weather during the initial call. John mentioned that at 15 hours I should not have to be told how to make a ground call. I am pretty sure that I did mention the weather during the call, also bolstered by the fact that the tower did not read back the weather or altimeter settings but he just terminated the conversation with "Let's proceed".
Some of you also asked whether he recommended me to any other CFI. This is the last sentence he said to the best of my recollection, "I have 11 students on my record and they need my time. I do not see that you have made any improvement over the past flights and you just choose not to fly the way I am trying to teach you to. I do not think it is a good investment of my time or your money to work on your skills any further. It is a free country and I can't stop you from flying and you can go to anyone else. There is XXX Air, YY flight services and a few others (again hiding the FBO/flight school name just to preserve anonymity) just next door. You can train anywhere you like, just not with me. I will send you the bill for the last few hours you have used the plane. You can mail me the check and I will mail you back your log book after the bill is cleared. Thank you."
Please let me know if you have any additional questions and I will try to present you facts.
First things first, thanks so much for your nice words. Last night when I wrote the first post, I was feeling like a failure and felt like I would do a favor to the world never trying to get in the left seat. But seeing so many people suggest that maybe, I was not at fault and he was just not the right kind of instructor for me, I feel much more motivated in looking for a better CFI.
One of you have asked for the contact details for my former CFI. The last thing I want is to start a witch hunt here. I just made the post because I was very sad at my failure and thought another aviator might be able to help with CFI suggestions and the morale boosting. That worked and I am very thankful to the community.
A few of the members here had wanted to know the CFIs side of the story. I can't speak his words, but I can tell you the incidents and you can decide for yourself.
I am a software engineer and I like to think I am good at running algorithms.When I started training, I tried to break up the process of flying with important milestones that needs for be achieved. For example, for the airplane I was flying don't rotate unless the needle is at or above 55 mph. My CFI told me that flying is about the feel, so all I have to do is keep the plane on the white stripe with minimal back pressure and the nose will come up when it has to come up. Now, on the contrary I always felt that he was not willing to let me feel how the plane flies for a specific control input even at safe altitudes. And for the most part, I felt he was constantly judging and yelling at me for every small deviation.
My former instructor, lets call him John, does not charge by the hour. His cost structure is, you start training by paying him $1500. When I solo for the first time, he charges me the next installment of $850. The next milestone for payment would be a cross country flight and so on. He told me right in the beginning that he expects me to be able to fly almost independently at 15 hours and would expect me to solo in 10-12 hours. His record is to get students out in 42 hours, something he also mentions on his website and he will not let anyone destroy that average. So, if I do not fly in 15 hours, he will have a hard conversation with me. Now you might tell me I should have stepped away right in the beginning, but again hindsight is always 20/20.
My evaluation of what I could have improved is, I could be more pro-active in my maneuvers, but it is very hard to try out things fearing I would be yelled at or worse thrown out of the program. I learnt how to drive in rallies and ride on tracks only after my car or my motorcycle started talking to me. I never had a chance to listen to the whispers of the airplane.
I will provide my account of the last training yesterday while my memory is fresh and you can help me understand what I could have improved/changed:
I flew from KABC (real ICAO suppressed to maintain anonymity of CFI) to do touch and goes at KAWO. Although John never taught me ground school (he just handed me access codes to King ground school and asked me to ask any questions I had) I have written down all I could figure out about KAWO like the pattern direction, pattern altitude, CTAF and AWOS frequencies before the flight. The wind was 10kt at 6* and I was trying to touch down on RWY 34. While taking off after the first touch down, i drifted away by about 10* from the runway alignment. John yelled at me about that. There was no traffic in the vicinity. Now I like to be very verbose in what I am about to do in the cockpit before I change any configurations. For example, I say on the intercom that I am going to drop power to slow the plane down. John had mentioned to me that I am not being fluid and behaving like a robot. While I was in the downwind he yelled at me because my plane was going fast (at about 90 mph instead of 75) and I was not slowing down quickly. Now when I dropped the power, and was approaching base, I asked if I should put out 10* of flaps. John immediately questioned me where I have learnt that from. My goal was to slow down the airplane and still keep a healthy descent rate. But John insisted on just taking the engine power out and continue descending and only use flaps on final. On the final, he yelled at me because I touched the flaps before enabling carb heat. The temperature was 23* at this time. Now, being yelled at further messed up my confidence and I corrected the previous mistakes but made more mistakes in subsequent touch and goes. After 5 touch and goes, he asked me to head back to KABC.
If I say that John for frustrated at the first mistake, that would not be correct. But he was mostly intimidating me and that was creating pressure on me preventing me from thinking straight. Also, I think he was just not willing to let me try out things and just be there to prevent me from killing myself, wrecking the plane or killing him.
A few other observations, during going through the pre-takeoff checklist, while checking if the ammeter was working and alternator was charging the battery properly, I tried to lower the flaps and raise it back up, probably a bit too fast. John asked, "do you know how much that motor moving the flaps cost? Lowering and raising it back up that costly is going to destroy the motor and then it would be added cost and head ache to him". Also, during starting the engine, I probably looked at the oil pressure gauge at the 35th second but did not make it evident to him that I was looking at it. He told me, if I don't look at the pressure gauge the next time while pointing at it, he will simply throw me out since I was not worth the 24K "rebuilding the engine cost" if something went wrong. Also, yesterday when I made the call to ground control, the ground control just gave me clearance to taxi without reading me weather, that they generally do if I did not mention I had the weather during the initial call. John mentioned that at 15 hours I should not have to be told how to make a ground call. I am pretty sure that I did mention the weather during the call, also bolstered by the fact that the tower did not read back the weather or altimeter settings but he just terminated the conversation with "Let's proceed".
Some of you also asked whether he recommended me to any other CFI. This is the last sentence he said to the best of my recollection, "I have 11 students on my record and they need my time. I do not see that you have made any improvement over the past flights and you just choose not to fly the way I am trying to teach you to. I do not think it is a good investment of my time or your money to work on your skills any further. It is a free country and I can't stop you from flying and you can go to anyone else. There is XXX Air, YY flight services and a few others (again hiding the FBO/flight school name just to preserve anonymity) just next door. You can train anywhere you like, just not with me. I will send you the bill for the last few hours you have used the plane. You can mail me the check and I will mail you back your log book after the bill is cleared. Thank you."
Please let me know if you have any additional questions and I will try to present you facts.
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Bill
Touchdown! Greaser!
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$1500 up front and he expects you to solo at 10hrs, and then you make another payment? Is that correct? Damn, $150/hr to get you to the point of solo?
No offense, but that right there would have had me walking away quickly.
Please, go find a good instructor who isn't hung up on turning out 40hr wonders!
No offense, but that right there would have had me walking away quickly.
Please, go find a good instructor who isn't hung up on turning out 40hr wonders!
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WannFly
Final Approach
Thank your lucky stars and get another CFI. you are not training to be a fighter pilot in WWII era, may be you are training for hobby or may be you will pursue commercial down the road, i dont know, what i do know are the following (coming from a high time pre-solo student):
- first 5 hours, i didnt do jack s$&t other than being a passenger. i have a thing for falling from great heights. didnt even take off on my own or with CFI assistance
- switched CFI based on recommendation from chief flight instructor
- my definition of medium back was 5 degrees and steep was 5.1 degrees
- every jolt in the air would lead me to freak out, light turbulence
- I didnt like how the ground was rushing up to me in an approach and would let my CFI land for first 30 landings
On July 27th proved myself and CFI got off the plane and i Solo-ed. i love 60 degree bank turns and do it because i can. i grab my CFI when its gusting 32kts and go flying because i want to master the art of landing in that gust (not working very well... lol)
What i am saying is, YOU are the customer and YOU are paying for training. find another CFI and stick to it if you really want to be a pilot and love flying.
Following sentence has no swear words, but OP will understand:
Chuloi jak CFI, arekta ke dhore lege thako guru
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Did he actually yell? You have to be corrected to get better, it's part of the process and you are the student, expecting him to teach you your way when you are learning something new is just not smart. Other than that, the CFI sounds like an expensive jerk, find someone else and do what they tell you to do, learn the instructor's way, not your way, a CFI most likely has taught this many times before, you are learning something new, you don't have a way.
abqtj
Pre-takeoff checklist
I have a LOT wrong with what he's doing in your description. #1 being he won't give you your log book until you settle the bill. That's yours, not his.
Also, the $1500 up front and you better be ready to fly independently by 15 hours? THen another bill for $850...he seems like a clown.
Agreed, hindsight is 20/20. Be thankful you're getting rid of him. Even if the other side of the story is far different, the middle ground is still a crappy place in this instance.
Get your log book and anything else this guy is holding hostage and go find a good instructor/school and have fun.
Also, the $1500 up front and you better be ready to fly independently by 15 hours? THen another bill for $850...he seems like a clown.
Agreed, hindsight is 20/20. Be thankful you're getting rid of him. Even if the other side of the story is far different, the middle ground is still a crappy place in this instance.
Get your log book and anything else this guy is holding hostage and go find a good instructor/school and have fun.
WannFly
Final Approach
Flaps only on Final?? whats wrong with first notch at abeam the numbers, 2nd notch at base and the rest in final. of course you can dump all of it on Final, but there is a time and a place for it. dont think its a generic rule
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
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James331
And the music stopped for me right there.
F' that scammer, yeah you just came across the wrong, actually very wrong, CFI.
tspear
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Timothy
Ok, I think the requirement to find another instructor has been hammered home.
With that said, as a fellow software engineer, you likely do not want a standard CFI.
Based on the analysis in your post, you will focus on the numbers before you focus on the feel in your hands. (this sounds rather familiar)
Therefore you need someone who is analytical and likes to fly by the "numbers". Once you have the numbers, the feel will come later. My suggestion, look for a CFI who is an engineer or works for the airlines. Explain that you are analytical, and need to get the "numbers" first. If the CFI does not catch your drift, keep looking.
Tim
With that said, as a fellow software engineer, you likely do not want a standard CFI.
Based on the analysis in your post, you will focus on the numbers before you focus on the feel in your hands. (this sounds rather familiar)
Therefore you need someone who is analytical and likes to fly by the "numbers". Once you have the numbers, the feel will come later. My suggestion, look for a CFI who is an engineer or works for the airlines. Explain that you are analytical, and need to get the "numbers" first. If the CFI does not catch your drift, keep looking.
Tim
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Is the $1500 just for the CFI's time and the plane is extra? That comes to $100/hr for the CFI! The reason I ask is that OP said he had to pay the $1500 up front for the first 15 hours and that he has 15 hours in his logbook so it seems that he was dropped right at 15 hours. He also goes on to write that when he was dropped that the CFI told him "I will send you the bill for the last few hours you have used the plane." So was he getting charged plane rental over and above the initial $1500 or am I misreading??
Subhro Kar
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shutterboy
This post originally had a image of the quote. I am removing this to protect the anonymity of the CFI. But to answer the original question, the plane rental for 85$/hr was in addition to the cost for instruction.
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From what you say, you shouldn't be too,upset about. Guy sounds like a real tool. If he expects you to solo in 10 hours. Was he covering slow flight, stalls, steep turns, basic aircraft control. I know as a CFI that takes close to 10 hours on its own. Then getting comfortable with landing, more hours. So eiether he is skipping all that basic airmanship, or he he the best CFI to have taught that al to students and have them solo in 10 hours.
Anymouse
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Total Stud Bush Pilot
I see the issue (haven't read above to see if it was pointed out already), the part that says "You will never pay more than this," tells me that the flight school didn't think they would get you finished in time, and they would lose money on you due to their guaranteed rate. As such, they decided to cut their losses now.
Subhro Kar
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shutterboy
Thank you Tim. I will try to find someone that is more on the analytical side. Do you or anyone else looking at this thread have any recommendations for someone in Seattle area?
Subhro Kar
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shutterboy
Well, I was able to slow down the plane to stall (flaps up, wings level) + 5 mph and fly around for 20 mins without losing more than 250 ft altitude. Although my pitch was not ideal and I had to make lots of corrections. I have done 45* turns, but not 60* within altitude loss of less than 200 ft. I know I should be able to glue the white needle on VSI to 0, but I am not there yet.
Ravioli
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
Text deleted by Ravioli at OP's request.
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Sinistar
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Brad
Just the fact he has your Pilot log book in his possession longer than the 1-4 minutes it takes him to sign it is a really, really weird/strange/bad sign. That log book is yours. Him in possession of your log book seems to be a really lame control technique. You will see A&P's needing to do this to get paid for maintenance but there you have to give them your plane/engine/propeller logs to start with and that is entirely different.
You have not given up...EXCELLENT!!!! I was so darned frustrated trying to solo that the thought of giving up crossed my mind...I drove home and said a big 'F' You to whatever part of my wusspile part of my brain even entertained the idea Took a week off and right back at it. So, take your time to find a good instructor. You don't have to name names, but tell the next instructor a major reason you left the previous one was his yelling...which is telling the new instructor that yelling will not be tolerated by you. However, a instructor will need to raise his voice from time to time, that is important as it will emphasize something that may be critical...but continued yelling is bad.
I'm an engineer too...every number can be questioned, studied, etc. It does help a bit if you can let go of the analytical for a bit and try to do exactly as the instructor is advising (the NEXT INSTRUCTOR that is). He/she will see how you've processed it and make adjustments as needed....that whole 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
Also, the hours you have logged are not at all lost. You have learned things. You will start with the next instructor and you'll be good at taxiing, radio, pre-flights, takeoffs, some maneuvers, etc. I would not be surprised if you solo with the next instructor in the next 4..8 hours. Heck, you might even get a different plane and like it more. Maybe there will be super hot babes at the new FBO lusting over you as you hop out of your F22 with your sexy kneeboard and shades on...lemons and lemonade man I think my CFI had me do like 10 or 11 flights (which was way more than 10 hours) before we even worked on landings. I had a long string of crosswind days and didn't solo until around 26hrs...exactly one flight after I wanted to give up like a little baby!!! Now I am at 56hrs and like 17hrs of solo and feel like the end is near.
This is just a bump in the road dude
You have not given up...EXCELLENT!!!! I was so darned frustrated trying to solo that the thought of giving up crossed my mind...I drove home and said a big 'F' You to whatever part of my wusspile part of my brain even entertained the idea
Took a week off and right back at it. So, take your time to find a good instructor. You don't have to name names, but tell the next instructor a major reason you left the previous one was his yelling...which is telling the new instructor that yelling will not be tolerated by you. However, a instructor will need to raise his voice from time to time, that is important as it will emphasize something that may be critical...but continued yelling is bad.I'm an engineer too...every number can be questioned, studied, etc. It does help a bit if you can let go of the analytical for a bit and try to do exactly as the instructor is advising (the NEXT INSTRUCTOR that is). He/she will see how you've processed it and make adjustments as needed....that whole 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
Also, the hours you have logged are not at all lost. You have learned things. You will start with the next instructor and you'll be good at taxiing, radio, pre-flights, takeoffs, some maneuvers, etc. I would not be surprised if you solo with the next instructor in the next 4..8 hours. Heck, you might even get a different plane and like it more. Maybe there will be super hot babes at the new FBO lusting over you as you hop out of your F22 with your sexy kneeboard and shades on...lemons and lemonade man
I think my CFI had me do like 10 or 11 flights (which was way more than 10 hours) before we even worked on landings. I had a long string of crosswind days and didn't solo until around 26hrs...exactly one flight after I wanted to give up like a little baby!!! Now I am at 56hrs and like 17hrs of solo and feel like the end is near.This is just a bump in the road dude
WannFly
Final Approach
That looks like 150 an hr just for instruction!!!!!
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
WannFly
Final Approach
You are looking for perfection and aiming for the number, I am in software too and still do the same thing , but cut urself some slack, there is nothing wrong if your target speed is 90 and u are at 87. Don't try to correct it, think that's mostly lead to over correction. At least that was the case with me
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Times have changed. It used to be common for the FBO/flight school to hold on to student's logbooks. One of the FBOs I worked for a while back had a couple of tubs worth of current and former student's logbooks, some of them going back several decades. Other FBOs, at least in my area, did the same thing.
Nobody seems to accept that approach these days.
Anymouse
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Total Stud Bush Pilot
azure
Final Approach
I don't have much to add to what everyone else has said, but to reinforce: I agree that this CFI really seems to have a business model that you, and probably most student pilots, would do well to stay away from. It's pretty clear that what he is after is your money, that's the main reason for wanting to move you along to solo ASAP, plus he thinks it will be a selling point to attract students.
One thing: OP, you've been reluctant to reveal who this CFI is, but I have to ask why? You would be doing the aviation community a favor! Are you afraid that he might retaliate, or are you just not confident in your assessment of him as an instructor? If you are telling the truth (and I don't have any reason to think you aren't, just saying "if"), then you aren't libeling him. The legal folks here could advise you better on the fine points of things like defamation, but personally I can't imagine that you could get into trouble for truthfully revealing this CFI's methods and behavior. If you're hesitant out of some sense of loyalty, I hope you will reconsider. Again assuming you are telling the truth, he does not in any way deserve your loyalty.
One thing: OP, you've been reluctant to reveal who this CFI is, but I have to ask why? You would be doing the aviation community a favor! Are you afraid that he might retaliate, or are you just not confident in your assessment of him as an instructor? If you are telling the truth (and I don't have any reason to think you aren't, just saying "if"), then you aren't libeling him. The legal folks here could advise you better on the fine points of things like defamation, but personally I can't imagine that you could get into trouble for truthfully revealing this CFI's methods and behavior. If you're hesitant out of some sense of loyalty, I hope you will reconsider. Again assuming you are telling the truth, he does not in any way deserve your loyalty.
Cajun_Flyer
Pattern Altitude
Uh, no. My logbook is MY logbook. Doesn't leave my possession.
@Subhro Kar - With that additional information, I am now in the "your CFI is a jerk" camp. Get your logbook back and move on to a new flight instructor.
Good luck.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
Subhro Kar I have a client at this time who sound a little like you; very smart and very willful.
He has rejected my syllabus and wants to learn his way.
He is 65 years old and has never flown anything.
He wants to prove to himself that his mistaken ideas are in fact mistaken and even after he has understood a thing intellectually his body often resists what his mind is telling him.
I have no way to predict how long it will take and at this time I feel he is a little behind for the hours he has flown. He is very good sometimes at some things so it may all work out in time.
He occasionally misses the target airspeed and altitude by a considerable amount and his ground track is often haphazard.
I feel his way is working because in our last flight lesson he said his fear had disappeared and flying was starting to feel natural and he was stabbing at the controls less. He was looking outside more for references and using the instruments to calibrate his sight picture.
I have not yet found a reason to yell at him. Sometimes he feels I am too critical about airspeed or altitude.
It makes it hard to build on what he has learned because his foundation is often incomplete or misguided.
What I am trying to say is doing it your way may take longer and cost more. It doesn’t mean it won’t work or you won’t become a good pilot.
You will need to find a CFI who can stay on track despite the disruption of his syllabus because you still have to manage the check ride. I have taken to crossing things off my spread sheet in whatever order they occur.
I wish you all the best on your aviation adventure.
He has rejected my syllabus and wants to learn his way.
He is 65 years old and has never flown anything.
He wants to prove to himself that his mistaken ideas are in fact mistaken and even after he has understood a thing intellectually his body often resists what his mind is telling him.
I have no way to predict how long it will take and at this time I feel he is a little behind for the hours he has flown. He is very good sometimes at some things so it may all work out in time.
He occasionally misses the target airspeed and altitude by a considerable amount and his ground track is often haphazard.
I feel his way is working because in our last flight lesson he said his fear had disappeared and flying was starting to feel natural and he was stabbing at the controls less. He was looking outside more for references and using the instruments to calibrate his sight picture.
I have not yet found a reason to yell at him. Sometimes he feels I am too critical about airspeed or altitude.
It makes it hard to build on what he has learned because his foundation is often incomplete or misguided.
What I am trying to say is doing it your way may take longer and cost more. It doesn’t mean it won’t work or you won’t become a good pilot.
You will need to find a CFI who can stay on track despite the disruption of his syllabus because you still have to manage the check ride. I have taken to crossing things off my spread sheet in whatever order they occur.
I wish you all the best on your aviation adventure.
Maybe it is just a Midwest thing? I know of several long time FBOs that followed the practice. The students thought nothing of it and trusted the FBO. It never caused a problem that I'm aware of, but I suppose it could if there was a dispute between the parties.
Many FBOs around here still do the block time/large deposit thing too, that everyone on the internet says is a bad choice as well.
abqtj
Pre-takeoff checklist
Something you might consider with your next CFI is a clear conversation about your expectations in the front end.
I did this with the flight school owner and the CFi's I've been with. I told them I have no aspirations of being a Boeing pilot or anything of the sort. This is a hobby for me. And if it takes me 80 hours, so be it. My end goal is to be a capable and competent pilot, not someone who blazes through the training by the skin of my teeth. I can't fly much more than once a week and I understand that will hinder my progress and cost a little more as a result.
I did this with the flight school owner and the CFi's I've been with. I told them I have no aspirations of being a Boeing pilot or anything of the sort. This is a hobby for me. And if it takes me 80 hours, so be it. My end goal is to be a capable and competent pilot, not someone who blazes through the training by the skin of my teeth. I can't fly much more than once a week and I understand that will hinder my progress and cost a little more as a result.
Subhro Kar
Filing Flight Plan
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shutterboy
Thank you azure and everyone else that have taken the time out to post on this thread. Your comments mean a lot to me.
Have you heard the story of Fox and the grapes? I do not think I am qualified enough to comment on someone's teaching techniques unless I have aced that. That is why I do not want to call out my former CFI on it.
I have no incentive in lying. But I have a lot to lose if I do lie in the form of being marked as someone to avoid in this extremely small community. But yes, I would definitely like to avoid libel/defamation lawsuits etc. And no I am not trying to keep him anonymous because of my loyalty. As a matter of fact, someone here already figured out who the CFI is.
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Ok you're not there yet, guess what you will be. It takes time and practice. You know you can do it, you keep on doing it. Eff that CFI!!!! Find one that will actually teach you and work with you. As a CFI I always ask the student if they want to be a pilot or just be able pass the test. There are plenty of people that passed the checkride, but don't have a clue about flying. And that is usually from **** poor instruction.
Skyrys62
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Meet the Fokkers
hold my logbook and draw back a nub
Ravioli
Ejection Handle Pulled
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
Reminds me of a thread where some skinny guy joked about taking an A&P's certificate at a bar. And everyone in the PoA realm sided with the A&P. Yah, it was sumthin' like that. Yah.
96gs917
Pre-takeoff checklist
$1,500 up front for 10-15 hours of instruction, plus $85/hr for the plane? And he holds onto your log-book?
He doesn't want anyone to "destroy" he self described record of pumping out pilots in 42 hours?
This guy sounds like a narcissistic, loser.
It took me 25 or so hours to solo, flying once, sometimes twice a week. Don't pay any attention to that guy. Find yourself a compatible instructor who will stick with you for the long haul. Treat each lesson as an adventure. This is something you should have fun doing. This guy doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
He doesn't want anyone to "destroy" he self described record of pumping out pilots in 42 hours?
This guy sounds like a narcissistic, loser.
It took me 25 or so hours to solo, flying once, sometimes twice a week. Don't pay any attention to that guy. Find yourself a compatible instructor who will stick with you for the long haul. Treat each lesson as an adventure. This is something you should have fun doing. This guy doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
TylerSC
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just the fact he has your Pilot log book in his possession longer than the 1-4 minutes it takes him to sign it is a really, really weird/strange/bad sign. That log book is yours. Him in possession of your log book seems to be a really lame control technique. You will see A&P's needing to do this to get paid for maintenance but there you have to give them your plane/engine/propeller logs to start with and that is entirely different.
You have not given up...EXCELLENT!!!! I was so darned frustrated trying to solo that the thought of giving up crossed my mind...I drove home and said a big 'F' You to whatever part of my wusspile part of my brain even entertained the idea
I'm an engineer too...every number can be questioned, studied, etc. It does help a bit if you can let go of the analytical for a bit and try to do exactly as the instructor is advising (the NEXT INSTRUCTOR that is). He/she will see how you've processed it and make adjustments as needed....that whole 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
Also, the hours you have logged are not at all lost. You have learned things. You will start with the next instructor and you'll be good at taxiing, radio, pre-flights, takeoffs, some maneuvers, etc. I would not be surprised if you solo with the next instructor in the next 4..8 hours. Heck, you might even get a different plane and like it more. Maybe there will be super hot babes at the new FBO lusting over you as you hop out of your F22 with your sexy kneeboard and shades on...lemons and lemonade man
This is just a bump in the road dude
Agreed keep it up.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I subscribe to a very Asian point of view in which the person who looses his temper, even for good reason, looses face. I have never found the reason to raise my voice to a student. I could not foresee doing it in an aircraft unless an unsafe condition were occurring. To me being slightly off center or a few knots fast is not a safety concern unless landing on a sufficiently short narrow strip that it ought not be used for training.
Now I must admit that what I teach does not lead to an incendiary demise if they get it wrong. But the same principle applies. No oen ever learned better from getting yelled at.
Now I must admit that what I teach does not lead to an incendiary demise if they get it wrong. But the same principle applies. No oen ever learned better from getting yelled at.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
His 42 hour average is fraud if he's not publishing his huge dropout rate. Keeping your log is theft of personal property. He's a bum.
I passed my check ride in 45 hours and the examiner I used said he hadn't seen one in less than 50 in a couple years.
I passed my check ride in 45 hours and the examiner I used said he hadn't seen one in less than 50 in a couple years.
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Anymouse
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Total Stud Bush Pilot
I think the block time thing has been around since the Montgolfier Brothers.
tspear
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Timothy
Vance,
I disagree. I am not a CFI, however I come from a family of teachers and professors.
The teaching method must match the student. If you do not, efficiency degrades considerably. Often teachers know multiple ways to solve or answer a problem; the teacher is responsible for picking a technique the student understands.
In the case of the OP, reading how the teacher failed to explain and how the OP approaches this with analysis, there was a definite failure to teach to the student.
I met with about six CFIs before I picked the one who instructed me. I spent more time on ground school compared to others, but I then spent less time in the air because I understood how things work.
Tim
Clip4
Final Approach
I think if your CFI can comply with this regulation with his students at 10 hours of dual he is quite a good instructor. Students at my fligh school solo around 15 hours.
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(d)Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraftsystems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(d)Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraftsystems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Nearly nothing to add but agreement on leaving this instructor and never going back.
Only this:
Engineers have a tendency to learn this way, and I've seen this before. Agreed.
I find it more productive if someone is a "numbers" learner to just use the FAA's "numbers" and work from those. And most analytical engineering types appreciate ticking off checkboxes, too ... and when presented with a numerical standard to hit, they often are quite self-motivated.
So perhaps with your next instructor, ask them to look over a copy of the ACS with you and go over the required performance numbers in the ACS and build a list of things (to keep your brain happy) that *their* syllabus is working on for you. Map the plan out for each flight but be willing to follow their lead. They know what you don't know.
Instead of looking at it as an *exact* number, look up the *requirement* in the ACS. And then expect your instructor to want to eventually see you do it *better* than the ACS standard for personal motivation. If the standard says +-100' for altitude, shoot for +-50'. Give yourself numerical goals. As you get better at it, make the goal harder. +-20'. Then +-10'. Same with airspeed.
Use the numbers provided instead of "that's about right". This works better for most engineers. Phrases like "It's supposed to be 90 knots but 87 is okay" don't map as well to the engineering brain as "the airspeed standard for this portion of the flight is -0,+10". Slow is sub-standard so if you have to make a mistake here, be a little fast.
And remember the ACS standard is a *minimum* standard. You can always choose to fly better than the Private standard.
Make sense to use the FAA ACS numbers? Give that a try. I think you'll like it.
If not, there's other ideas where that one came from. And that's the disappointing thing about the instructor you ran into first. All instructors should have more than one teaching tactic up their sleeve.
But I think you'd be the sort who would like a number challenge. Hit the FAA ACS standard. It'll be frustrating at first and your confidence will take another hit (expect it!) and then you'll get better at it and you'll want to tighten it up well past the minimum standard (and your confidence will rise).
If the instructor manages the daily expectations right, you'll walk away knowing you did a good job on some things and other things need work. Don't dwell on it, just go up again and work on the harder stuff more.
I understand this engineer mentality. It happens to me. And I have a number of engineer pilot friends. It takes a number of hours for us to relax at first and then start "feeling" the airplane instead of mechanically chasing headings, airspeeds, and altitudes. The sooner you relax and feel the airplane moving through the air, the sooner you'll go from following numbers to aviating.
Oh, and expect your instructor to cover up all the instruments to *challenge* your numbers brain eventually. Because you *can* fly the airplane without staring at those gauges. Mine used a jacket. Covered the whole panel and said, "Ok, now feel the airplane, and fly the pattern, and land." You'll have to go through that. And it'll be memorable.
Only this:
Engineers have a tendency to learn this way, and I've seen this before. Agreed.
I find it more productive if someone is a "numbers" learner to just use the FAA's "numbers" and work from those. And most analytical engineering types appreciate ticking off checkboxes, too ... and when presented with a numerical standard to hit, they often are quite self-motivated.
So perhaps with your next instructor, ask them to look over a copy of the ACS with you and go over the required performance numbers in the ACS and build a list of things (to keep your brain happy) that *their* syllabus is working on for you. Map the plan out for each flight but be willing to follow their lead. They know what you don't know.
Instead of looking at it as an *exact* number, look up the *requirement* in the ACS. And then expect your instructor to want to eventually see you do it *better* than the ACS standard for personal motivation. If the standard says +-100' for altitude, shoot for +-50'. Give yourself numerical goals. As you get better at it, make the goal harder. +-20'. Then +-10'. Same with airspeed.
Use the numbers provided instead of "that's about right". This works better for most engineers. Phrases like "It's supposed to be 90 knots but 87 is okay" don't map as well to the engineering brain as "the airspeed standard for this portion of the flight is -0,+10". Slow is sub-standard so if you have to make a mistake here, be a little fast.
And remember the ACS standard is a *minimum* standard. You can always choose to fly better than the Private standard.
Make sense to use the FAA ACS numbers? Give that a try. I think you'll like it.
If not, there's other ideas where that one came from. And that's the disappointing thing about the instructor you ran into first. All instructors should have more than one teaching tactic up their sleeve.
But I think you'd be the sort who would like a number challenge. Hit the FAA ACS standard. It'll be frustrating at first and your confidence will take another hit (expect it!) and then you'll get better at it and you'll want to tighten it up well past the minimum standard (and your confidence will rise).
If the instructor manages the daily expectations right, you'll walk away knowing you did a good job on some things and other things need work. Don't dwell on it, just go up again and work on the harder stuff more.
I understand this engineer mentality. It happens to me. And I have a number of engineer pilot friends. It takes a number of hours for us to relax at first and then start "feeling" the airplane instead of mechanically chasing headings, airspeeds, and altitudes. The sooner you relax and feel the airplane moving through the air, the sooner you'll go from following numbers to aviating.
Oh, and expect your instructor to cover up all the instruments to *challenge* your numbers brain eventually. Because you *can* fly the airplane without staring at those gauges. Mine used a jacket. Covered the whole panel and said, "Ok, now feel the airplane, and fly the pattern, and land." You'll have to go through that. And it'll be memorable.