Harrison Ford & I Now Have A Bit Too Much In Common...Pilot Deviation :(

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Sinistar, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    Did Tower on the call that they were filing it as a pilot deviation with the FSDO or expect further follow up?...if not I would not at all worry. As mentioned controllers have a LOT of leeway as to when they escalate and only a few scenarios where they HAVE to escalate and write up things like loss of separation. Just a call to tower is not an immediate and automatic pilot deviation that gets sent to the FAA.

    Be willing to bet from the sound of it Tower was satisfied with your response and that is the last you are ever gonna hear of it.
     
  2. StevieTimes

    StevieTimes Line Up and Wait

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    Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

    I was cleared to land 28 right at Flying Cloud, and I landed 10 right. On the way down, the controller said "Orrrrrrr, you can land 10 right if you prefer" (or something similar). That statement saved my bacon.

    I think at Flying Cloud, the tower controllers are accustomed to student traffic, and likely only want to help the flight school/student, keeping a good relationship going with them.
     
  3. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Oh they have to report it regardless of sep loss. 8020.11 requires them to. Must be logged on the Sup's log (7230-4) and a Pilot Deviation form (8020.17) must be completed and transmitted to the FSDO.

    Now, whether or not all that gets done depends on that particular facility climate. Generally controllers hate paperwork and don't care about getting pilots in hot water with the FAA.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  4. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Even then, it depends how it was resolved. A Compliance Action, warning notice, letter of correction, or successful completion of a 709 ride are not reported as "violations."
     
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  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    I guess we're talking two different things here. I'm not referring to what gets reported in a pilot's record. I'm just referring to the definition of PD being a violation of the FARs. Being labeled officially is one thing, the actual violation of 91.123 is another.
     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I think we are. I'm talking about what is reportable as a violation on official records, insurance applications, and the like. I know a lot of folks get confused on that when filling out things.

    Outside of that, yes, of course, a violation is a violation even if no one ever notices it.
     
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  7. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Brad,

    Here is what I see the situation as:

    You had previously been instructed by the controller to land on runway xxL many times and that is what you anticipated hearing simply because it was so common. Even though your read-back was correct your mind was fixated on landing on the usual runway. I would consider that a 'brain fart' and we all have them at times. Thankfully, no harm, no foul, just egg on your face. That's something that happens even to professional pilots with thousands of hours. As others have said, be humble when dealing with the feds.
     
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  8. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    I'd like to say "don't sweat it" but I know I would be sweating bullets. I will never forget the time I lined up on a taxiway after being cleared to land on 10R at KCMH, and only sidestepped to the runway at about 200 AGL. There but for the grace of God... :redface:

    That said, as a student pilot I don't think you have anything to worry about from the FSDO. I'd be astonished if they did anything more than make sure you understand what COULD have happened. But as a solo student you're flying on your instructor's ticket, and they are going to want to talk to him too. Hard to say what the consequences will be for him, though likely not too serious. I hope he has a mild temperament; I've known instructors who would really chew out a student who got a pilot deviation while flying on their ticket. Frankly, that's the worst I'd worry about in your case.

    Best of luck.
     
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  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Since the thread alludes to Harrison Ford, has everyone listened to the full audio of his call to the Tower after the landing? When he starts looking for his certificate in his backpack, you can hear listen to almost a minute of the heavy breathing of someone who is very stressed and upset about what happened.

    Here's a guy whose entire career involves displaying and controlling emotions and the "sweating bullets" is evident in his voice.
     
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  10. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Since no one has clarified, I'll throw this out there... when you're a student, to the FAA you're always flying under the supervision of an instructor. That solo endorsement says the instructor trained you for solo flight and signed on the dotted line that you're okay to be in whatever controlled or uncontrolled airspace you're signed off to fly in. That's the connection to the instructor in the FAA's eyes. They understand the instructor wasn't on board, but they still have to investigate to make sure the instructor hasn't gone rogue and is signing people off for things they didn't teach correctly.

    Your instructor will be fine, students make mistakes. It's just a matter of knowing solo student flight is legally "flying on the instructor's ticket" and FAA double checking that the instructor taught the right things and also can come up with a plan to remediate and teach any mistakes that happen. Then it just kinda goes into the "unknown" from there, and depends a lot on the student and instructor's attitudes and the inspector. The vast majority treat it as a team effort to figure out what went wrong and fix it.

    As you can see from the thread, "stuff happens" to a lot of people. Almost everyone who's been flying long enough has a serious mistake or two under their belts.

    Note @midlifeflyer 's words carefully, he's probably the closest thing to an expert on the legal side of things as we have here. FAA has a lot of leeway in the specific actions they can take, and he listed some or all of them. They can take those actions against you or the instructor, and an awful lot of what they choose to do depends on everyone's attitudes.

    The other good news about "automatic" enforcement actions from controllers, if there is any, is that the inspectors have a lot of cases to work. If you and your instructor are "already on it", fixing the issue and doing remedial training, versus some doofus they're also working a case on that week who "doesn't get it" and isn't repentant and humble about their mistake, guess who's getting the fire rained down on them while the instructor and student who made an honest mistake and are working to correct and gets a letter of reprimand (or similar) and their remedial training plan "approved" by the inspector so the inspector can move on to worse problem children?

    You just don't know what kind of day/week/month the inspector is having. Being humble and polite and non-confrontational while still aware that the mistake was serious, can go a long way.

    Instructors CAN get calls from FAA *years* after training, when things go horribly wrong. "Yes, we trained on that thing. I follow a syllabus and that is covered, and that student didn't have any indications during training that they would not do it." Etc. That's just how it goes for instructors.

    And students can call up years later asking for advice in a Pilot Deviation, too... their instructors might be the only people they know who've had any regular contact with FAA and might know the inspector and their style. Or sometimes a former student just may feel the only place they can find advice about something is from the people who taught them.

    I've seen instructors "go to bat" for good pilots years after they taught them when something "stupid" happens and a former student is in some sort of trouble. Aviation is a small world.

    Good people help good people, and there's a couple of cases I know of where instructor friends of mine are helping or have helped former students with possible enforcement cases because they know the former student isn't a twit and isn't reckless, and they want them to succeed in the biz. Since one is ongoing I can't/won't share details, plus I'm a third party and wouldn't have them 100% right anyway. Point is, their old instructors are vouching for them in front of FAA.

    I suspect your instructor will too. We all know students are our responsibility in many ways, and certainly legally, while they're flying on our tickets. Your instructor wasn't there to say, "Stop! Go around!" but they want to instill that voice in your head so you'll hear it the next time something isn't quite right...
     
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  11. tspear

    tspear Cleared for Takeoff

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    Like the others said, be contrite. Work with your instructor and get some focused lessons to address the mistake. By the time the FSDO called in my case, we already had a couple of lessons, and I had flown back to the site of the offense (where the tower control cleared me for 6/26 and then 13/31 a second later in case I missed the first runway, he obviously remembered and had fun with it). The FSDO just asked me a couple of questions, then said he would discuss with my instructor the plan to drive home the lesson. I do recall the FSDO having a rather evil laugh; and the instructor did try some new rather interesting tricks on me.

    Tim
     
  12. Sinistar

    Sinistar Line Up and Wait

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    Brief Update:

    Met with the instructor early today. He said to stop dwelling on things until we hear more. We talked about what I did wrong. Told him I listened to the tower tapes and all is still as I remember it (dumb arse me). He said he will still renew my solo endorsement (which ends in a few days). We are still planning on me taking the written this week. Basically - do not stop working on the PPL!

    On the ATC side, he informed me that one thing that really doesn't help the controllers in situations like this (close parallels) is that our tower probably isn't tall enough and making it taller has been mentioned several times. I bet that ain't cheap. I do need to visit the tower sometime. I have visited another Delta tower but not this one.

    He could tell I was a bit hesitant regarding going up again but I told him I'd rather face that sooner rather than dwelling on it. We talked about ways to help this not happen. And I went up and soloed again today. It was like a mini test there for awhile there with a event at the airport with lots of Young Eagles flights and a temporary movement area change...so man did I look at that little one line NOTAM closely! I almost aborted. But it feels good now to have a safe, uneventful flight as my most recent flight instead of my blunder.

    He also has met with most (or maybe all) of the inspectors at the FSDO. He was very respectful of them. He said to expect a call which will be to setup a appointment. Since training in our own plane, will plan to have those logs with (in the car until asked). Plane logs are all up to date, Pitot Static and Altimeter are current, annual is due in October and one AD is due in about 10 more hours.

    So its Written study time for me now until the call. I'll keep everyone posted on this event. If there are other things I haven't answered or given details, that's just me trying to not say too much either.
     
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  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Relax. I wouldn't be surprised if all you receive is a phone call about it, CFI too especially if they know the CFI. Regardless, I'd ventured every pilot. including yours truly, has made a boo boo or three. I was an Air Force controller, and witnessed military as well as civilian pilots make boo boos. And I have seen controllers make mistakes, a couple serious ones too that almost had me considering getting out of ATC because of other controller's attitudes. You'll be fine.
     
  14. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    I hate parallel runways.
     
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  15. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You wouldn't like KATL then. 5 of them there. :D

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. HouTxPilot82

    HouTxPilot82 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks for sharing. As others have noted, we all make mistakes - learn and move on. Hang in there.
     
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  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Hey! I never made a mistake as a controller. ;) Back in the day, there was plenty of rug sweeping when it came to operational errors. Those days are becoming a distant memory.

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-faa-controller-operational-errors-increasing
     
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  18. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Liar! :)
     
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  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    Hey. Me neither. Didn't that spike come about when they put "Squeal a Deal" in the terminals? Somebody asked me once, how many deals have you had. I asked, define deal. They said a loss of approved seperation. I said thousands, maybe tens of thousands.
     
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  20. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Squeal a Deal! Haha. Love it.

    Nowadays I can't seem to go anywhere near a busy Delta without being completely annoyed by the audible warnings that FAA has added for the controllers in the towers.

    That frequency and cadence comes through their mic and into my headset perfectly and I wish they had never installed those. It's incredibly annoying in the cockpit to be forced to listen to the tower controller's warning beeper every time you arrive in the pattern and there's more than three airplanes in the sky. LOL.

    I've got my own beepers and buzzers on board the aircraft, thanks. Whatever that two-tone warble is, it's really annoying.
     
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  21. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Microwave. Dinner is ready. ;)
     
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  22. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Brad,

    I would place Nate's (denverpilot) advice in post #12 at the top of the heap on this one. The remedial training and review of the items listed will go a long way with the inspector assigned to your case. Since you really don't have a certificate yet besides the student pilot one, you are unlikely to be subject to reexamination. I guess the ASI could decide to fly with you to see if you are truly solo qualified but I would be a bit surprised by that. If he did that, he would really be evaluating your CFI's judgment in soloing you as much or more so than your abilities to solo.

    As others have said, be honest about your mistake and be respectful to the FAA guy. Even if he comes across a little rough, he is just trying to get you to be safe and legal.
     
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  23. jspilot

    jspilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just wanted to add a thank you for posting your story. It's never easy to open yourself up to the scrutiny of people( especially others who do keyboard)as I learned in a recent story I posted here.

    Don't really have any advice to offer you though on how to deal with the FAA. Seems like you will learn from this mistake and I'm fairly certain you can be a better pilot now. The student pilot piece will help you a lot in this case as you are not truly out of the nest yet. You are extremely lucky their was no other plane involved or no other traffic on the parallel runway. Be thankful for that-- in a lot of ways, whatever the "punishment" is pails in comparison to what could have happened if another plane was involved.

    Chin up--we all learn from our mistakes. As someone wrote to me in the thread on this site about my emergency, in which I could have done more, "experience often comes after it is needed!"
     
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  24. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    I did the same thing a long time ago. It happens. Metal wasn't bent in your case, nor was it in mine. I've been exceptionally anal retentive about reading back the exact runway I'm cleared for (as I should have been doing in the first place) ever since then. It is a memory that is literally in my mind every single time I am on short final. If you haven't read about confirmation bias, do so. It is real, it is a part of being a human, and it has been casual to many aviation mishaps. Something I am always keenly aware of nowadays, and just recognizing it, and questioning my though process, has helped me to avoid such situations in the intervening years.
     
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  25. Sinistar

    Sinistar Line Up and Wait

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    I can totally relate to that doubt now on short final. When I was up afterwards (yesterday) for each of those 9 or 10 landings: Do I have a landing clearance yet? Did I get it early on downwind? Did I get it late on downwind? Did they just switch me from right to left and I missed it? That feeling actually sucks now...uncertainty...up until then it felt like this great rhythm between ATC and myself. I think that is why my x-wind landing practice was off. I'm not giving up. But something is different now.
     
  26. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    At the airline many of the pilots would flip on the taxi light when we received a landing clearance. I forget what I used to do in GA years ago but it was something similar. Now with my controller hat on, if you don't remember, ask them again. Even if they seem put out to clear you again, you'll know.
     
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  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    I'll betcha get over 'worrying' so much soon. Here's a word for you. Verify. If you ain't sure, don't worry and wonder about it. Verify. That's what you do and that's the word you start with. "Tower [call sign] Verify cleared to [land or whatever] 10 Left.
     
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  28. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    I wouldn't stress it - your CFI is going to get the grief - not you. You may get a quick refresher from the FSDO - but it'll just be a chat -

    No sure what else you could have done - you repeated back the correct runway and landed on a different one - it was a situation where the brain never processed what the mouth was saying.

    Its how and why the [Comair] CRJ crashed in Louisville. Assumption is the mother of all screwups.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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  29. Harold Rutila

    Harold Rutila Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Do you mean the Comair CRJ crash in Lexington?
     
  30. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    If it was, that was an entirely different situation.
     
  31. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don't know of a Comair CRJ crash in Louisville.
     
  32. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Actually, it wasn't. They did the checklist, one part involved lining up on the correct runway and verifying the heading - which they brain farted on - same exact mental mistake.
     
  33. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

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    The Comair accident was Lexington not Louisville
     
  34. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If I recall runway 26 (they were cleared to 22) the runway lights were off. One controller on duty didn't help either. Don't know why the controller didn't notice they were on the wrong runway. Flew in and out there for 24 years, still can't understand what made them cross 26 to get to 22. I think that was the old routing to 262, may be wrong. I seem to recall a sign w/ an arrow indicating where 22 was.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  35. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    It was different. The runways were extremely confusing. I have departed there several times before the runway closure and almost made the same mistake. That's totally different than a brain fart lining up on the wrong parallel.
    The runway heading thing came about industry wide because of that. I was a standards writer back then and I wrote it into our SOPs... as did everyone else.
     
  36. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Agree. Verifying came very quickly after that crash. A good procedure regardless.
     
  37. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

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    We used to do that years before the crash. It was more to verify the compass/DG, but it accomplished the task both ways.
     
  38. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep, that's true, but it really was emphasized, and mandatory, after the Comair crash. I've even seen some Capt's verify heading, runway number on the pavement, and the runway ID signs at the runway edge. Some even checked the FMS.
     
  39. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    Absolutely noting wrong with the call while on final..."Tower...Skylane 345, confirming cleared to land 3-1-Right?"...have made it more than once when task saturated and not 100% sure I got it.
     
  40. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Holy crap! They weren’t even taking off from the right airport?! ;) ;) ;)

    Seems odd it wasn’t there in the Commercial world. My first instructor years ago had me checking the DG against runway heading as a final check after lining up (granted, some of that was to reset the crappy things in the rentals back then that would precess so badly you still might think you were lined up on 22 instead of 26, but anyway...) and I can’t think of a flight where I haven’t done it in a quarter century since then...