Harrison Ford & I Now Have A Bit Too Much In Common...Pilot Deviation :(

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Sinistar, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    This isn't good...for me:

    [x] I think he learned to fly around age 52....I'm 52
    [x] I think he learned in a C182...I'm learning in our old 182
    [x] He's a scoundrel...enough said ;)
    [x] My wife was madly in love with him...now me :cool:
    [x] Pilot Deviation....ME TOO....I Landed On The Wrong Runway yesterday :(
    [ ] Landing on Golf Course...damn I hope I never have too.
    [ ] Fly a helicopter...never!

    I'll spare all the tiny details, they are in the Nasa ASRS report.

    Basically landed on the wrong parallel. I did properly repeat back all ATC instructions but my mind was fixed/on the other runway which I always get coming in from the practice area from that direction. I was given a long straight-in final. ATC was being cool, giving me the north parallel instead as its closer to my parking. I like practicing long straight in finals as the pattern needs to be unwound. And I decided to make it a short field...rocked that and was able to make the first taxiway. Only to receive the dreaded "You will need to call the tower...." .

    The controller was great, not ****ed or anything. Actually they've all been really helpful. I have never used the phrase "Student Pilot" (yet) but I'm sure they can probably tell. Given my good repeats of his instructions he probably didn't have much to tip him off regarding my wrong intentions until really late on final. Thankfully no landing or taxiing traffic anywhere near that runway.

    Now I await the FSDO call I guess. Wonder what they will do to a lowly student pilot? Hope they don't take my 1st child...I only have one!!!

    My instructor didn't seem PO'd but is anxious to hear the details when we get together next.

    ps. If you're reading this Mr. Ford - I'd be happy to buy you a beer and have you teach me about landing on a golf course :)
     
    Skyrys62 and overdrive148 like this.
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,756
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    You can add one to the list. Check it off or not.

    [ ] Speaking with a lawyer after the pilot deviation.
     
  3. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,609
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    Good luck. You are learning, I think with no harm done, ASRS report, and your fess up attitude the FSDO will do something minor. Like ask you to get a couple of hours with the instructor.
    At least that is what happened to me (It was not even a parallel runway, it was the fricking crosswind runway and tower gave me crap the next few trips there...)

    Tim
     
  4. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    5,739
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Questions... are these parallels L and R or are they far enough apart they have different numbers. (case in point: KFWS had 17L and 17R but KFTW has 16 and 17)

    The calls were all correctly re-stating the clearance?

    I only ask because I've had a time or 2 (probably more) where the controller came back and said "BugDestroyer 666, confirm runway xxx, you appear to be lined up for yyy" and I had to say something to the effect of "Darn it." They've cleared me to the runway I'm heading to, I've slipped over to the correct runway, once I had to do an immediate 360 for traffic.

    My point is, don't sweat it too much. It's a communication thing and a good lesson. And even after you learned it the first time it may happen again.

    Can't tell you how many training controllers have issued the wrong pattern entry to KFTW. When I hear it I have to re-state my position from the airport and they correct.

    A good pilot is always learning! So am I!
     
    exncsurfer and TylerSC like this.
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,226
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Why not? I did once... but it was an actual grass strip. Fun to land and watched the gofers waiting.

    May not hear from anyone if a confliction didn't occur. If FSDO man does call, be humble
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  6. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,384
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Please tell me you said, "I'm the schmuck who just landed on the wrong runway" when you called the tower. :)

    Hope this all works out for you. As a student, I think you'll be ok. I'm sure your instructor is at least get a talking to as well.
     
  7. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    You're a student pilot, so I think try get a get out of jail free card on this. I always dread this sort of thing, as I am constantly confusing right and left (not uncommon with southpaws). Does trip me up now and agin, even though I try like crazy to be on guard against it.
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,528
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    I have no doubt you'll be just fine. You already are accepting responsibility and not whining and not blaming someone or something else. Your obvious bad attitude about helicopters you may want to keep to yourself in case the FSDO dude likes helicopters, lol.
     
  9. lancie00

    lancie00 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    337
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    Don't feel bad. On one of my cross countries during training I lined up on the wrong runway too. And it wasn't even a parallel runway. The tower saw what I was doing and asked if I would rather land on that runway. Luckily no call to tower but I felt like an idiot. Good luck to you. I'm guessing you won't have much of a problem. Just tell them you realize your mistake and are looking forward to some additional training so you never do it again.
     
    StevieTimes likes this.
  10. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Owensboro, KY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skyrys62
    Tell them you had a hard time concentrating because you were worried about drones and ATC Privatization.
     
  11. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,547
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Years ago (the statute of limitation has run) I came into KMYF (San Diego CA) from the north. This was a routine trip for me, and I was always given a right base entry for 28R. Well, on this day, apparently, tower said "right base for 28 left". But it didn't register.

    As I was rolling out on 28R, tower nonchalantly said, "Mooney 52 Yankee, turn left, cross your assigned runway and contact ground ... "

    :confused:

    That was the end if it. :oops:
     
    DesertNomad, X3 Skier, Norman and 5 others like this.
  12. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    I think you'll be okay overall. Like someone said, be humble and be open to whatever training they may toss at you as a remedial measure. FAA is trying to be less punitive and more about training and making sure whatever causes these things isn't repeated. Since your instructor is involved they may ask you to fly with a different instructor. Never know. Roll with it. They won't ask you to do anything beyond your capabilities. And they know you're a student.

    I suspect your instructor will have to answer up a bit for it too, since you're a student. He'll be involved with the inspector in your remedial training plan. They'll want to see he has one. He may ask to go flying with you prior to hearing from them to do part of that plan. Always better to be ahead of it than behind.

    "After I heard about this the student and I went out and did some landings with a heavy emphasis on ground operations, confirmation of taxiway and runway readbacks, writing down all clearances, and techniques for confirming clearances in cases of any doubt. Prior to that flight we did an hour of ground where we discussed those topics as well as airport markings as well as the use of the airport diagram with special emphasis on hot spots. We also went over a few NTSB reports I selected as examples of how dangerous runway incursions can be, and listened to a recording of one of the incidents. We also discussed techniques for management of distractions and I gave the student simulated distractions on base and final afterward to see how they handled my distractions. We then debriefed and discussed the sterile cockpit concept during critical phases of flight and talked about techniques a pilot could use to remove the distractions of an unruly passenger like I was simulating, including isolating the intercom, and requesting a clearance to break off the approach and go back out and set it up again."

    Etc etc etc. You get the idea. Talk it over with your instructor so you're both on the same page as far as how much he wants to get ahead of it. If the instructor doesn't want to do something like that, use the list above as a study hints guide so you're prepared to talk to the inspector in terms of continuous training and learning.

    I'd also give you the advice a lawyer would give. Honestly. Stop talking about it here or anywhere. Anything you say here can be misunderstood and there's just no reason to say any more until it's over and done with.

    Let us know how it went when it's over. I can't imagine they'll be too rough on you as a student. Just show a willingness to learn and apply better techniques for avoiding it in the future. They know you're not PIC but they need to know you can correct yourself someday as PIC.

    If it makes you feel better, lots of people have done it. People with higher ratings than you! :)
     
    azure and Zeldman like this.
  13. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Just a comment that it gets easier as you get more experience. No harm in asking for tower to confirm "cleared for runway XX" where ya just read the numbers/letters in front of you.
     
    Sinistar likes this.
  14. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,983
    Location:
    Clinton, AR (Sometimes)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Total Stud Bush Pilot
    Quick question. What are your goals in aviation? Just a private ticket? Or are you planning on flying for a living?

    If you're just looking to get your private ticket, then don't sweat it. An enforcement action will just be an inconvenience. At worse it may cause you to pay a bit more on your aircraft insurance. Look at it as a lesson learned.

    If you're planning on flying for a living, then yep, you want to play the Get Out Of Jail Free card.

    All that being said, assuming that you do get the dreaded call/registered letter from the helpful FSDO guy, don't be a dick. 'Fess up. Admit what you did. Your attitude will go a long way towards reducing paperwork.

    Now, if such things become a habit, then all bets are off.
     
  15. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,608
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Frankly your cfi has more to worry about and even he shouldn't be worried. Just do some training with special emphasis on the error you made so the FAA can document a resolution to the deviation and they can move on to other issues.
     
  16. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,226
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Good point Clark. Or just reading back "cleared to land rwy 35L" might be caught by the controller if they issued something else.
     
    Skyrys62 likes this.
  17. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,866
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    Don't feel too bad. I did this long after I was a student pilot, but luckily for me, long before the FAA got crazy about this being an automatic deviation. I was so used to landing on one particular runway, I didn't notice when they gave me the other one. But I was also known to the controllers, so after I apologized on the frequency, they said, "don't worry, we'll take care of you". I never heard another word about it.
     
  18. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    I am at KFCM (Flying Cloud). They are parallels (10L/10R). As I understand it, the parallels are somewhat close for an airport (not an excuse though).

    Each of the ATC calls were for 10L. Each of my repeats back for 10L. But my brain was dialed in on 10R.

    Actually, as I recall there has been at least 4 times during training where I called ground for a taxi to my hangar or to the instructor's FBO. The incorrectly gave me a taxi instruction to the active runway. I always nicely told them theres a "oops" and they corrected it. They have always been super helpful and do their best to keep us from screwing up or worse. This time it was me that screwed up. I don't recall a time at this airport where ATC has called out a wrong runway (at least for me).
     
  19. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    Yeah, I will definitely keep everyone posted on the outcome. In case it wasn't clear, I was doing a solo flight so instructor was not with. I know that doesn't exempt him from all of this, just wanted that to be clear.

    I probably won't get into any more details per @denverpilot's recommendation.

    I hope the tower guy doesn't get too chewed out or in any kind of trouble...for him, its a job.
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,756
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Chances are he won't need one if it's handled correctly.
     
  21. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    9,841
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    I fly for a living and have a violation. When I would tell a potential employer about it, all I got was a lot of leg pulling.....

    The question is.... was there a separation issue, did another airplane have to move out of the way? Don't reply until after the issue is taken care of.

    A request to call the tower is not a death sentence. Did they tell you they were going to have to report this as a pilot deviation? Or did they just talk about what happened and asked you to be more careful? Did anyone talk to your instructor?

    This is not the end of the world. I knew of a student pilot that landed at an airport that was not on the flight school list of approved airports and crashed. He now flies for a living.

    With the "kinder, gentler" FAA the main thing is compliance.
     
    azure likes this.
  22. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,744
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Blame it on Carl. He's always screwing up.

     
    denverpilot likes this.
  23. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,446
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    Been there...kinda.

    Arriving an unfamiliar airport at night and cleared to land on the active in use...well, there is another runway just slightly offset to that as well and both were lit up. Approaching the threshold I look down and see my landing lights illuminating the wrong numbers!...CRAP!...while fully getting into go around mode I make the call "Tower, Skylane 345", I lined up for runway 3-2"..."Skylane 345, cleared to land 3-2" ..." Cleared to land 3-2, thanks...sorry about that!".

    No harm no foul but had I not looked out the window to confirm the numbers it might have been a different story. Yes, there are a gazillion indicators that I missed to ensure I was in the right place...but complacency happens!
     
  24. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    Interesting idea! It might bug the heck out of ATC while doing pattern work, but for any arrival this is one thing that could help me...at any airport!

    Right now I am not going to start worrying. Actually, my brain is really thinking about "how to correct this" moving forward.
     
  25. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    2,459
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sundog
    Probably gonna be OK; then again, the FAA is full of people, and 10% of all people are jerks. Double that for a non-accountable bureaucracy, but you're still probably OK. They have a legit interest in at least talking to you about it, if they care to. If tower wasn't super-frosted, it may go no further. You filed the NASA report, you made an honest mistake, but stop talking about it now, at least until you hear something. Spend a few bucks with an aviation attorney - maybe just a single consultation, maybe even on the phone.

    'Cause there is a small chance someone at the FSDO or elsewhere will find some reason to blow it out of proportion. Don't lie, but don't convict yourself, either. Have you heard the audio? Do you know you got it wrong? Is it possible tower make a mistake? They're human, too. See how it goes, get some legal advice, or at least keep it in mind before you start granting interviews or answering letters. And just because a conversation sounds friendly doesn't mean it is. . ..

    All that said, likely nothing of substance will come of it.
     
  26. Sinistar

    Sinistar Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    My main goal is become a really good private pilot. I can see a instrument rating in the future. Not sure about commercial (but really like the idea as it pertains more to being really good at flying a plane).
     
  27. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,983
    Location:
    Clinton, AR (Sometimes)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Total Stud Bush Pilot
    I was flying for 18 years before I decided to make the leap to commercial and flying for a living.

    BTW... Back when I was a student, I got the dreaded call from the FSDO. They were actually pretty chill. The first thing the guy said, which set me at ease, was, "This isn't going to go on your record."
     
    Sinistar likes this.
  28. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,746
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Yeah it's mostly for unfamiliar airfields or anytime ya get distracted. PUB has Doss contract training for the air force so there are a lot of DA-20s around. More DA-20s than I have eyeballs so I've used the phrase there just to be sure I'm doing what the tower expects. I've also used it to verify option/touch-n-go/etc when tower an I were not on same page.
     
    Sinistar likes this.
  29. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,334
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    The "FAA" can encompass a lot and in this case, I'm guessing it to mean the controllers. I've been doing this ATC gig for a while and I have never (and will never) gig a pilot for an honest no harm no foul error (nor have I been instructed to do so). Now in the OP's case, if a vehicle was authorized to be on the runway or a different loss of separation occurred then yes, I'd have to forward it up as a PD. Otherwise, we are all human and we all make mistakes. We need each other's vigilance at times to keep things safe.

    That all being said, as a pilot and controller, I wish others shared my sentiment and I realize they all don't.
     
    Skyrys62 and Velocity173 like this.
  30. PilotRPI

    PilotRPI Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    MA - 1B9
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PilotRPI
    I often confirm stuff with towers just to make sure. Especially clearances to land. In MA, a bunch have attitudes, especially Norwood, and give you crap for making sure you heard things right "I already gave you a clearance." They're not even busy. Why you gotta be like that? Did I take you away from your coffee for three seconds? Literally minutes of silence on the frequency until my confirmation.
     
    neilw2 likes this.
  31. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,866
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    I meant it to be both; certainly the controllers, but at the time, it wasn't an automatic report to the enforcement arm as I believe it is now. Maybe you could shed some light on the question of whether or not this is a mandatory report.

    I should add that this was about 25 years ago, so I'm sure policies have changed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  32. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,334
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    The FAA does at times inundate us with new rules/notices/etc. That said, I don't recall ever reading or being instructed that all PD's must be filed at all times. I do not think this is mandatory. I know we regularly do NOT file on no harm no fouls deviations at my facility. Usually we just correct the pilot on the freq and let it go. Some times we have them call on unrecorded lines and explain/understand each other and let them know nothing else is needed.

    I do understand that the culture of some facilities isn't as pilot friendly and that is unfortunate. As I said, we are all human and we all need each other. In the OP's case, who knows what the external factors were? Maybe someone in upper management was in the tower and said they had to deviate him? Maybe the FAA had a regional/national team in the tower conducting an audit? Maybe they gave the city authorization to cross the runway downfield? Maybe the supervisor on duty just likes to violate every offender because he's never made a mistake in his life?
     
  33. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,226
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I need to get up there and straighten them out. Or send Timbeck up, yeah that'd be better. :D

    Reminds when I had a few controllers I supervised who thought they were at the Indy 500 when making an ATIS broadcast. I'd make them do it over. Oh they'd get ****ed. Tried explaining that a pilot is getting info off the ATIS, so slow down. Make another one and you'll do it over again.

    These controllers at Norwood just need cut down to size. They're there to provide a service. Don't be intimidated by their grouchiness. You're doing nothing wrong asking for clarification. If you desire you could go visit and ask WTF their problem is, report it to the tower chief, and call it in on the FAA safety hotline, if they still have that. Or just go up and bunch 'em out. :popcorn:
     
  34. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,866
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    I was talking specifically about runway incursions. I thought I had heard that an official report was necessary (either against the pilot or against the controller) in these cases.

    Also, I'll point out to those who don't know that a deviation is not a violation. There are many steps between one and the other. You could have a deviation filed that does not result in a violation. I think this is true in the majority of cases.
     
  35. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    I think I would inform him on the radio that I'd be up to have a little talk. No one yells louder than Steingar, though hopefully it doesn't devolve to that. Thing is the system works best when we all work harmoniously together.
     
  36. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,810
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    It's still a FAR violation. In this case, 91.123. Whether or not any enforcement action is taken on the violation is a whole different issue.

    When I did ATC, I was required to write up ALL PDs. But, as RC said, the controller has quite a bit of latitude in doing that if no loss of sep occurs. If loss of sep and other controllers have witnessed it, or its recorded through TARP with an automatic occurrence report sent up, it's out of the controller's hands.

    http://safecockpit.com/WS-8_CFI Workshop Notes kdd.doc
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  37. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,528
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Yup. Runway incursions seem to be the FAA's poster child these days. Gettin caught sweeping one under the rug would probably not be a good career move.
     
  38. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,756
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    "Violation" is a term of art. If, for example, your insurance application asks if you have had any violations in the pas X years, it means found to have violated the FAR after a formal enforcement action in which all avenues of appeal have been satisfied (“satisfied" including not exercised). They are not asking for a confession. Similarly, in responding to a PRIA request, the FAA only lists those which have been formally adjudicated.
     
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,810
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    I wasn't referring to the Brasher but a proven PD after a formal investigation by the FSDO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  40. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    Thanks for sharing and let us know how it all pans out. U are a student and they should consider that.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk