great soaring weekend

I flew on Saturday - temps hovering around 100*, no real lift to speak of (at least not close to the airport where the instructor kept my newbie butt). Did a couple of sleigh rides - part of it went well, part of it could have used some work. I could sure see the effects of taking a weekend off... :(
 
This weekend was a bust for me, flying-wise. I was out of town all day Saturday. There was an event scheduled at the airport, so I don't know if anybody did any glider flying then anyway. Father's Day I was busy all day, so I didn't make it to the airport. And it was hot and muggy.

This coming weekend I'm busy all day Saturday again. Maybe Sunday, late afternoon I can get another lesson.

At this rate, it may take me 2 or 3 seasons to get that rating. There are worse things.
 
Last Thursday was looking promising, so I arranged to take of early from work. Then the question was do I fly my glider and try one of our 200 mile goal flights or take my son up in the two place Blanik(L-13). In the end I decided that the opportunities where the Blanik, Weather, my Son, and I are all available for soaring are limited and I have quite a bit of solo flying already planned for the summer, So I took my 13 year old son up for 1.5 hour soaring flight. Turns out that was the right decision all around the weather didn't support a 200 mile flight anyway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
That is great Brian, I think you made the best choice. I got a chance to take my girlfriend up for 2.5 hours on June 19th, it was great.
 
brcase said:
Last Thursday was looking promising, so I arranged to take of early from work. Then the question was do I fly my glider and try one of our 200 mile goal flights or take my son up in the two place Blanik(L-13). In the end I decided that the opportunities where the Blanik, Weather, my Son, and I are all available for soaring are limited and I have quite a bit of solo flying already planned for the summer, So I took my 13 year old son up for 1.5 hour soaring flight. Turns out that was the right decision all around the weather didn't support a 200 mile flight anyway.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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13!! Get that young man some lessons... he's about old enough to SOLO !!
 
I've been slacking off on the posts. I've had a couple more flights and think I've gotten the hang of flying the tow under control, rather than being dragged around the sky. No thermals yesterday, so it was a good day to just work on tows and landings. I was only able to get one flight, though, my CFI had to run. But, at least the flight was a good one. First time, too, that I've done the whole approach and setup - getting to the initial point, at speed and altitude, downwind, base, final, with spoiler controls - the CFI handled the landing.

Just as the CFI was starting to leave, a couple (boyfriend/girlfriend) wandered over. He's seen the gliders every weekend and said he's always wanted to stop by, this time he did. CFI said he had time to take one of them on a flight, so she got to go (turns out he is a PP already). I was standing over to the side, watching. She's cute, so all the other guys were falling over themselves to help her with the harness.

She said it was the first time she's flown, other than airlines, and it sounded like she was more excited about taking lessons than her boyfriend. Maybe she'll dump him?

Also, if you're walking back to the hangar right after the mower has passed by - that piece of rope you bend over to pick up might actually be what's left of a snake.
 
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matthew - excellent progress! keep us updated.
 
One of the club instructors went out of his way today to make time for me. We got to the airport about 8:30 this morning. A tow-pilot got there for me and another guy from the club showed up to help. I got 4 flights in before the CFI had to leave and a couple other guys got to fly.

I now have 10 flights in, the minimum to solo, but I know I need more work. Weather was good. Nice and cool, unusual for this time of year, and no thermals until later in the afternoon. Pattern tows got me the repetitions I needed. The first tow was a 2000' release so I did get a chance to actually fly a bit - stalls, steep turns, chandelles, slow flight.

A great day for lessons. Later, I got to be ground support and had the chance to watch a B2 fly over (maybe he was part of the KC airshow?). A few minutes later, somebody in Pitts was nearby, giving that plane a workout.

A good day!

(edit: Oh, yeah, I saw Kim take off and head down to Lamar. Probably on her way to drop in on Diana.)
 
Great report Matthew.. we were rained out today.. a rare occurance around here (Mojave Desert).

Interesting report.. 10 flight , minimum required for solo.. is that a club requirement?
We solo people when they are ready..
 
BillTIZ said:
Great report Matthew.. we were rained out today.. a rare occurance around here (Mojave Desert).

Interesting report.. 10 flight , minimum required for solo.. is that a club requirement?
We solo people when they are ready..
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Isn't 10 the minimum in the FARs (if you already have a PP-ASEL?) I'm pretty worn out and might not be thinking straight.

edit: I just looked in the FAR - That 10 flight number must be for the 10 solo flights as a requirement for the rating. I know I've seen a 10 flight minimum prior to solo someplace. It must have been in the club paperwork. Eh - either way, I know I still have a lot of work to do.
 
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Matthew said:
Isn't 10 the minimum in the FARs (if you already have a PP-ASEL?) I'm pretty worn out and might not be thinking straight.

edit: I just looked in the FAR - That 10 flight number must be for the 10 solo flights as a requirement for the rating. I know I've seen a 10 flight minimum prior to solo someplace. It must have been in the club paperwork. Eh - either way, I know I still have a lot of work to do.
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Yes.. if you are a PP add-on, then after solo, you need 10 flights as solo PIC, then a few flights to polish for the check ride.

We solo people in the Schweizer 2-33A or Grob 103 and then check them out in the club SGS 1-26D for their solo flights.
 
Our club has the L-13 and 1-26 for rental/training. A couple other guys have their own - a Cirrus and a Libelle. Both those sailplanes just look beautiful. The L-13 and 1-26 look like the workhorses they are, and there's nothing wrong with that!
 
Tony is in town this weekend and stopped by this morning.

One tow pilot, one CFI, and two students. We had to wait an extra 1.5 hrs for the ceilings to lift.

Other student got in 6 flights today. I got 4 flights and one chemical burn.

CFi handled my first takeoff, I did all the rest of the takeoffs, apporaches, and landings. We just did pattern tows today. The CFI told me I was getting really close to solo.

The CFI was wanting us to land and turn off at an intersection so we could expidite our turnarounds. That's fine for him, but pretty tough on a student who's having enough trouble as it is. On one landing, I ignored him and went ahead and rolled past the intersection and flew the plane until it didn't have anything left. We came to a complete stop in the middle of the runway, both wings still balanced in the air, and I tipped my head to the left to drop the left wing. That landing made me happy.

The glider has a hanging pocket along your right thigh. Inside that pocket was an aerosol can of air freshener. I guess it's been there a while. The cap had gotten knocked off, and while I was flying, pressure from my leg pushed against the nozzle and it pretty much emptied itself, soaking through the pocket and my pants leg. I noticed it when we landed, but it didn't seem to be a problem. It wasn't a problem until a couple minutes later, on the next tow, when my leg started burning. We landed and I dumped a bunch of water over the area to dilute it all. That was my last flight of the day, anyway. I have a pretty good red area on my leg, but it doesn't look like any permanent damage and I smell citrusy fresh. Gliders are hard.
 
Sounded like a great flying day.. except for the chemical burn.

Any aerosol can in any airplane may not be a good thing. Ever see the top blow out of one? can you say.. "bullet"

We like our students to land in a given area, when they are learning we know they will go long and have to be pushed back for the next launch. But don't go long just because "it feels good".

You will work it down to "spot landings", and most always be able to hit your spot and stop. Spot Landings and quick stops are training for that cross country landout into the 1000ft farmers field.

We have 700ft from the threshold to the first turn off. Most can land and stop in that distance. That leaves us about 2800ft (2600 for the tow plane after you count the 200ft rope) for the next take off. In the summer time with no significant headwind, that can make a difference. (3500ft runway - 700ft landing distance - 200ft rope = 2600 feet remaining)

We have no departure end obstructions like trees, but there is a lot of unlandable desert. With our safety buffer for departure, we can normally have 200ft AGL when leaving the airport boundry for that emergency turn around.
 
Our airport is getting squeezed by houses. Depending on the direction of departure, the tow-pilots will adjust their path right after takeoff to avoid flying over most of the residential areas.

Coming into R35, like yesterday, you do have to clear some trees. The 'spot' landings yesterday required having drop in over the trees to touchdown just in front of the numbers (if a grass strip had numbers), going downhill, then getting hard on the wheel-brake to make the right turn off onto R3 that we were using for takeoff. Not too easy for a pre-solo guy who's with his 3rd CFI.

One landing I was trying to work on what I could do, and not what my CFI could do, and touched down a little long - we would have had too much speed to make the turn. I didn't land long just because it felt good, it was actually the other way around.

Sounds like I'm going to need to make some road trips someday and check out other glider operations. Most of you guys sound like you have some pretty nice setups.

That spray can is no longer in the glider - I don't know how long it had been there, but I tossed it.
 
matthew - glad you had a good flight. i meant to stick around longer but got busy flying the bird dog with kim, we went down to Cow Chip and the over to the CAF hangar at IXD. I did get a PT-19 ride so that was nice. by the time we got back everything was put away. i was wondering if you even flew considering the ceilings never got super high.

it is a good thing to get out and see other glider ops. often small clubs become insulated from the rest of the soaring world. we can learn a lot from each other.
 
tonycondon said:
matthew - glad you had a good flight. i meant to stick around longer but got busy flying the bird dog with kim, we went down to Cow Chip and the over to the CAF hangar at IXD. I did get a PT-19 ride so that was nice. by the time we got back everything was put away. i was wondering if you even flew considering the ceilings never got super high.

it is a good thing to get out and see other glider ops. often small clubs become insulated from the rest of the soaring world. we can learn a lot from each other.
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It was just the 2 of us students yesterday - it wasn't good soaring weather for anybody else in the club so when we were finished, we packed up. I did get a "You're really close to solo", though. I talked with the other student, we might consider a road trip next year down your way for a long weekend of flying.
 
OK - all you L-13 guys: a question...

Our club L-13 does not have any grips on either of the air-brake or flap handles. The undercarriage handles do have grips, but the rest do not. I don't know how or when the grips came off.

Are there color codes for the brake and flap handles? I didn't see anything in the manual. The undercarriage handles are blue.

Thanks.
 
Matthew said:
OK - all you L-13 guys: a question...

Our club L-13 does not have any grips on either of the air-brake or flap handles. The undercarriage handles do have grips, but the rest do not. I don't know how or when the grips came off.

Are there color codes for the brake and flap handles? I didn't see anything in the manual. The undercarriage handles are blue.

Thanks.
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Standard bicycle hand grips should work. With Golf grip tape and glue.
Blue is the standard for Airbrakes / spoilers.
I think the flap handles were gray.

Either get the plastic handles or paint the metal.
There was a SSA Magazine article years ago, some people put foam and zip ties with the spike cut end exposed on the flap handle. So you can tactile feel the difference.

L-13 pilots are known for pulling one when they mean the other, don't catch their mistake and then have an accident, either over run or under run.

Pull the spoilers when you mean the flaps.. but you end up landing short into the approach end fence or stall spin trying to streatch your glide to the runway with the spoilers out.

Pull the flaps when you mean spoilers... but you really have your had on the flap handle and go long into the fence at the far end of the runway.

When you move a lever, look at the wing, is what you wanted to move moving?

When you move a lever.. and performance change you expected to happen.. did not happen? Look, put the lever back and pick the other handle. :idea:

There was an article in SSA mag last year, a single seat glass bird went long and crashed into an embankment. Everyone kept watching the gear cycle up and down. :confused: The pilot thought he was moving the spoiler control, but the gear was moving and he did not catch it.
 
Accepted Standard, but I cannot find a ready reference. Different manufactures may deviate slighly after Red, Yellow, Blue, Green

Red - Emergency, Normally canopy jettison, Canopy latch handle can also be red if it is part of the jettison.
Yellow - Tow Line Release
Blue - Spoiler / Airbrakes
Green - Trim lever
White, canopy latch lever that is not part of the emergency jettison
Black - Rudder pedal adjust, Landing Gear
Gray - Gear, Flaps, or some thing else

And old gliders have had the colors wear out or sun fade.
Our Janus has purple knobs on the drouge chute. Previous owners choice?
 
Tony stopped by our club last weekend and said he'd used bicycle handgrips of different styles so that you could feel the difference.

I mentioned that to one of the club officers last night when we were at the airport. He thought there might be a color code 'standard' - so I figured I'd check before I did anything. Our color code right now is 'bare metal' on the brake and flap handles, both front and rear.

I'm aware there have been accidents because of grabbing the wrong handle. My current CFI has me pull full flaps at the initial point, it's easy enough to check if that was the right handle. Then, test the brakes and don't let go of the brake handle.
 
Matthew said:
I'm aware there have been accidents because of grabbing the wrong handle. My current CFI has me pull full flaps at the initial point, it's easy enough to check if that was the right handle. Then, test the brakes and don't let go of the brake handle.
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Interesting thoughts of use of the L-13 flaps for landing.

I like them. Easier to keep the tail wheel off the ground on landing. The bulkhead where the tail wheel is attached cannot take too many hard hits without cracking. When you land on paved runways all the time and not grass, it makes a difference. I've seen too many people land with no flaps, get to slow, and bang the tail down first before the main.

Some people do not teach the using "soaring flaps" on the L-13 for traffic pattern operations. The Vne with flaps extended is low. Turning into a head wind on final may require more speed to make the runway, and also the no wind approach speed plus 1/2 the wind on final can take you up to the "max speed with flaps extended".

I believe that you should be able to do both, land with the flap, and land without flap. The minimum approach speed does not change that much, but the picture out front (nose attitude) does change. The maximum available speed does change.

I teach both methods. Want to have fun, try to extend the flaps at close to the max flap speed. You will be going to the gym on that left arm. IIRC, the L-13s I have flown will buzz at you when you approach max flap speed.

For our Janus C, I would not want to attempt a landing with no flaps or even partial flaps. We can get a nice steeper slower (draggier) approach with the Landing Flap. The brakes are weak enough as it is. Adding 5 knots to the touch down speed can easily double the landing distance required. It's a heavy 1600 pound glider.

But I do deviate from the check list as to when I select the final "notch" of Flaps to the "L" position. Standard FUSTALL check list calls for Flaps first. The Landing Flap position in the Janus C is very nose low and very draggy, for a reason. I wait on the last flap extension until turning base to final when I know the landing area is clear and can be made.
 
Matthew said:
I'm aware there have been accidents because of grabbing the wrong handle. My current CFI has me pull full flaps at the initial point, it's easy enough to check if that was the right handle. Then, test the brakes and don't let go of the brake handle.
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I hope you mean "test the air brakes (spoilers) and don't let go of the handle".

The "brake" lever is on the floor. :D and with only one free hand, you will not be able to work the "spoliers".. :yes:

Ok.. I'm done trying to be funny.

I did have the spoilers on an L-23 surprise me one day. Strong x-wind landing, CAP Cadet in the front seat. Got the glider down and rolling, I let go of the spoilers to reach for the floor mounted wheel brake. The spoilers slammed shut and we were airborne again. :fingerwag:

I flew back down, pulled the spoilers and directed the cadet to hold them while I reached for the wheel brake.
 
BillTIZ said:
I hope you mean "test the air brakes (spoilers) and don't let go of the handle".

The "brake" lever is on the floor. :D and with only one free hand, you will not be able to work the "spoliers".. :yes:

Ok.. I'm done trying to be funny.
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OK, funny guy. Yeah, by brakes I meant the dive brakes. I've had 3 CFI-Gs so far. Each has used the flaps differently during landing. My current CFI teaches full flaps downwind. approx even with the touchdown point or a little earlier - and yes, they are a workout to get open. I have not yet used the wheel brake on landing (CFI has doen that), so I don't know what'll happen yet if I let go of the dive brake handle to work the wheel brake. I don't remember using the flaps during landing with my previous CFIs. One day I noticed a very experienced pilot using the L-13 flaps during landing and asked him about it. He seemed surprised that everybody doesn't do that, too.

I guess I could just hold the stick with my knees and work the wheel brake and spoilers at the same time.

I did watch a guy do something similar last year. He was flying a Pitts and a rudder cable snapped. He grabbed the broken end of the cable with his right hand, wrapped the cable around his hand, and was able to pull right rudder trim. He then used his left foot for left rudder. When he needed to use the throttle he did have to hold the stick with his knees. He pulled out a perfect landing. I have the pictures of him as he climbed out onto the runway, right at the point where his knees gave out and he fell on all fours.
 
Matthew said:
OK, funny guy. Yeah, by brakes I meant the dive brakes. I've had 3 CFI-Gs so far. Each has used the flaps differently during landing. My current CFI teaches full flaps downwind. approx even with the touchdown point or a little earlier - and yes, they are a workout to get open.
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The slower you are, the easier they are to get fully extended. Why fight yourself? Full flaps can create limiting speed issues when the headwind picks up.

I have not yet used the wheel brake on landing (CFI has doen that), so I don't know what'll happen yet if I let go of the dive brake handle to work the wheel brake.
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If the spoilers are all the way back, there should be a "notch" to put the handle into so they do not slide forward. At times they still move though.

I don't remember using the flaps during landing with my previous CFIs. One day I noticed a very experienced pilot using the L-13 flaps during landing and asked him about it. He seemed surprised that everybody doesn't do that, too.
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Flaps on landing can make for a smoother level touch down. I prefer flaps in the L-13. But not when the winds are 20G30 and a crosswind.

I guess I could just hold the stick with my knees and work the wheel brake and spoilers at the same time.
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I would not try that.
 
BillTIZ said:
Turning into a head wind on final may require more speed to make the runway, and also the no wind approach speed plus 1/2 the wind on final can take you up to the "max speed with flaps extended
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Half the wind? If you have a 20 knot head-wind, adding 10 knots, seems like a bit much. The "general rule" people say in the piston world is half the gust speed (which I don't do. IME - In the piston world, if its gusty enough to justify adding speed your airspeed indicator will be unreadable..).

What about gliders makes you want to add half the wind speed? A 20 knot headwind resulting in you adding 10 knots seems like a lot to a glider-idiot like me.
 
adding half the wind is a good approximation to get best glide angle into a headwind. holding best L/D speed with a headwind will not give you the best effective L/D over the ground, you've got to sacrifice a little vertical speed and push a little faster to get a little higher groundspeed. Similar to going a little faster in sinking air.
 
I'll also have to check on any max headwind limitations for takeoff - I don't have the book with me right now.

There's a lot of wind math that goes into flying gliders. I still have a lot to learn.


edit:
According to the book:
Normal approach:
no brakes, full flaps = 40-45kts
brakes extended = 43-51

Steep approach:
brakes extended, full flaps = 51-60 kts

Max flaps extended = 60 kts

"Maximum cross wind component for safe approach and landing is 10kts"

I didn't see any max tailwind component for a downwind landing, which would be the max headwind for takeoff in case of a rope break and a 180 back to the runway.

It's interesting that the L-13 stall speed without flaps is 32kts, and with flaps it only changes to 30kts.

From the numbers above, it looks like my current CFI is teaching the "steep approach" method - full flaps, use of brakes, and between 55-60kts. I'll have to ask him about it, but I think we've been doing that so we can land as short as possible to minimize turn-around time on the ground.
 
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one of the reasons i rarely approached with flaps in the L-13 was that with some wind (add more speed) and some sink (add some more speed) it was very easy to exceed the really low Vfe.

I find that extra 2 knots of stall margin very helpful when thermalling though. When solo I could be stabilized in a thermallying turn at about 38 knots. up up and away!
 
tonycondon said:
one of the reasons i rarely approached with flaps in the L-13 was that with some wind (add more speed) and some sink (add some more speed) it was very easy to exceed the really low Vfe.

I find that extra 2 knots of stall margin very helpful when thermalling though. When solo I could be stabilized in a thermallying turn at about 38 knots. up up and away!
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I'll need to spend some time talking with my CFI about flaps/no-flaps on approach for the same reasons you and BillTIZ gave.

My first flights with my first CFI were more orientation flights than anything. We didn't spend much time working on approaches or landings. We just flew. As soon as we found lift, we cranked in a steep turn, slowed to about 40 and pulled out the flaps. Yeah - "up up and away" is right.
 
tonycondon said:
adding half the wind is a good approximation to get best glide angle into a headwind. holding best L/D speed with a headwind will not give you the best effective L/D over the ground, you've got to sacrifice a little vertical speed and push a little faster to get a little higher groundspeed. Similar to going a little faster in sinking air.
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Interesting. I suppose that makes sense if you're really pushing it to try and make the runway. For the most part though I would think one could just fly the pattern close enough that they wouldn't have to carry the extra energy.
 
jesse said:
Interesting. I suppose that makes sense if you're really pushing it to try and make the runway. For the most part though I would think one could just fly the pattern close enough that they wouldn't have to carry the extra energy.
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The thing with a glider is that on approach you can only give up energy. There is no way (e.g. throttle) to get it back. My strategy was usually to keep the glider basically clean (not give away energy I might need) until actually on final and then using the spoilers as required to dissapate energy. (Keep in mind a high % of my glider time is in a no flap Std. Cirrus.) Frankly I felt the Fowler flaps on the L-13 didn't do much of anything besides create drag and were more trouble than they were worth. I don't have that much L-23 time to comment on.
 
Lance F said:
The thing with a glider is that on approach you can only give up energy. There is no way (e.g. throttle) to get it back. My strategy was usually to keep the glider basically clean (not give away energy I might need) until actually on final and then using the spoilers as required to dissapate energy. (Keep in mind a high % of my glider time is in a no flap Std. Cirrus.) Frankly I felt the Fowler flaps on the L-13 didn't do much of anything besides create drag and were more trouble than they were worth. I don't have that much L-23 time to comment on.
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Yeah -- I suspect the technique really changes depending on the glider. I imagine you have low-drag gliders with extreme high-drag flap/spoilers, and high-drag gliders with ineffective flaps/spoilers, and everything in between -- all of which probably requires different technique.

When I said extra energy -- that was probably a poor phrase. In my mind by going faster intentionally because you're trying to stretch your glide into the wind -- you've already given a lot up. I would think a tighter pattern would result in a landing that was obviously not in question, enough where one wouldn't have to worry about going abnormally fast to penetrate the wind. The ability to do that tight pattern though, probably varies with every glider.
 
Pretty much. The 2-22 is a great example of a high drag glider with laughable spoilers. You pretty much slip it in to get a steeper descent angle. Conversely Lance's Std Cirrus is a pretty slick ship with descent airbrakes. Patterns vary wildly among different gliders. In a 2-22/2-33 you will fly a trelatively close and steeper pattern than you would in something like a high performance fiberglass ship.

In the end it all comes down to managing the altitude (energy) you have to get to the landing spot safely and at a reasonable speed. If you are too high you can always extend your patttern or slip. Too low you better find someplace else to land.

One of the biggest no nos is to stretch a glide. We had a guy stall spin it in at our club a few years ago. Luckily he survived. Ironically the accident saved his life. He went to the doc because he felt bad after the crash, and was diagnosed with a previously unknown aortic aneurism.
 
I've been told that L-13 flaps add lift, but little drag. I think what Tony and BillTIZ are getting at is that with flaps, you limit yourselft to a relatively low airspeed. With a headwind that requires a higher airspeed to ensure you have enough groundspeed to reach the runway, you could be putting yourself at a disadvantage. Once that energy is lost, it won't come back.

We do fly a much tighter pattern than in a powered plane, I'm still getting a feel for that, too. One of my instructors really pushes the "TLAR" method. That Looks About Right. Keep asking, "Too high? Too low?" and adjust everything, including pattern size and shape, accordingly. I'm finding out there is a lot more art to flying a glider than I've needed in an airplane.
 
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Hey Matt do you guys use the clipped "Piggott" pattern?
 

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Matthew said:
One of my instructors really pushes the "TLAB" method. That Looks About Right. Keep asking, "Too high? Too low?" and adjust everything, including pattern size and shape, accordingly. I'm finding out there is a lot more art to flying a glider than I've needed in an airplane.
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This instructor has it right. Keep in mind for an off field landing you don't know "field" elevation. TLAR is all you've got. Once you're in the pattern, even at your home field, forget the altimeter. (Not recommended for ILS approaches to minimums :D:D)
 
vontresc said:
Hey Matt do you guys use the clipped "Piggott" pattern?
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First I've heard of it. I've been told to use the standard "whatever it takes" pattern. I've been trying to do the normal downwind/base/final because that's all I know. Each person I've flown with, though, varies the pattern depending on conditions. If that means a descending 180 instead of a rectangular pattern, then that's what it is.

It's been a little tough since I've had 3 CFIs so far. They've each had their own terminology for things. They've probably been talking about the same things, just saying it differently. They've all used the same terms for the initial point, though.
 
the "whatever it takes" pattern is a good name for it. the key is that landing a glider is a goal oriented approach not a pattern oriented approach (like often is the case in airplanes). takes a little time to get used to that.
 
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