great soaring weekend

[Matthew]

This instructor has it right. Keep in mind for an off field landing you don't know "field" elevation. TLAR is all you've got. Once you're in the pattern, even at your home field, forget the altimeter. (Not recommended for ILS approaches to minimums )

Yeah, his point, too. I don't bother with the altimeter once I'm in the pattern, I just glance at the airspeed indicator. When the flaps and brakes are out and I'm at the approach airspeed, there's a distinct nose down attitude in the glider that I subconsiously try to correct, that ends up getting me below the airspeed I'm trying to maintain - and the trim doesn't work very well. I know I do it, so I catch it and make corrections, but it hasn't come automatically yet. Something I'll be working on next time.

 

[Matthew]

Dang, guys. All this talk has me itching to get back out there, but:

[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KIXD 041853Z 07006KT 2 1/2SM -RA BR OVC007 18/17 A3007 RMK AO2 RAB1756 CIG 004V009 SLP175 P0011 T01830167[/FONT]

 

[BillTIZ]

It's interesting that the L-13 stall speed without flaps is 32kts, and with flaps it only changes to 30kts.

That is why they are called thermaling flaps.. not landing flaps.

 

[BillTIZ]

Traffic patterns in gliders. We do not use the "Piggot" pattern.
We teach "angles and altitudes".. too many power people are used to, turn over the mall, turn over the barn, turn final. Adjust power as necessary. That does not work in gliders.

We do not like the 180 and land, downwind to final, some consider it the WWII Fighter Pilot roll off. Square up the base leg and adjust either closer in if low (turn towards the runway NOW!!), or get on the spoilers now if you turned base too early. Some teach extending base, or turning outbound slightly if to high. We cannot extend because of the other runway.

We prefer to square up the base and "check BOTH Finals", we have two runways 300ft apart centerline to centerline. Is someone sneaking in on a straight in to your runway you have not seen or heard?

Power pilots are used to the standard 3 degree glide slope. Glider finals are closer to 7 degrees.

A clean 2-33 will have an L/d of about 23/1 in calm air, spoliers will reduce that to about 7/1. For the power pilot, think of the Cessna 150 with no power and no flaps at best glide speed is about 7/1. The L-13 / L-23 is about 28/1 clean.

Students will make the approach to a safe touch down with airspeed and altimeter covered before allowed to solo. Does the pattern look right? Does the nose pitch and noise pitch (speed) sound right?

 

[BillTIZ]

adding half the wind is a good approximation to get best glide angle into a headwind. holding best L/D speed with a headwind will not give you the best effective L/D over the ground, you've got to sacrifice a little vertical speed and push a little faster to get a little higher groundspeed. Similar to going a little faster in sinking air.

What Tony says. I had a "Ride" up and on a windy day.. all was well as we were riding "Wave" at the departure end of the runway about 1000ft above pattern altitude. We were in the 2-33, maintaining 55-60knts face into the wind and going no where, not up, not down, not forward.. then we started backing up. The winds just picked up.

A call to glider ops and it was 25G35 on the ground but straight down the runway. Then we started loosing altitude with the increased speed airspeed. Did I say it was a 2-33?

At pattern altitude I turned downwind, that lasted about 1min and a mile and a half later I turned base before I got abeam the approach end. I had to crab 60 degrees into the wind on base leg to not get pushed farther out. Turning final I had 70knts plus into the wind and with judicious use of spoilers landed helicopter style onto the runway.

If I had been speed limited with flaps (Vfe) would not have been good.

Power aircraft attempting to land into the wind were maintaining close to cruise power settings for their draggy, flapped, 3 degree glide slope trying to fly approach at 70-75knts.

I chatted with them later, they had seen my approach and landing. Why flaps? "I always use flaps for minimum touch down speed" was the standard answer. Why a flat approach? "That is what I was taught", the standard VASI glide path.

We discussed how the "glider pilot techniques" would have made their approach a lot easier on them and their airplane.

 

[jesse]

It really depends on the airplane Bill. Some powered airplanes are very slick and have high stall speeds. If they left their flaps up they would have to come in with excess energy. Given the touchdown speed of these airplanes, more airspeed is a bad idea. They also have a lot of energy to manage after touchdown and the more drag they have to slow them, the better.

What works in your light slow landing glider may not work so well in a heavy slick high wing load powered airplane.

I've flown at least a couple powered airplanes and I may come in with a tight pattern- I'll still be touching down with full flaps in almost every one of them.

 

[BillTIZ]

It really depends on the airplane Bill. Some powered airplanes are very slick and have high stall speeds. If they left their flaps up they would have to come in with excess energy. Given the touchdown speed of these airplanes, more airspeed is a bad idea. They also have a lot of energy to manage after touchdown and the more drag they have to slow them, the better.

What works in your light slow landing glider may not work so well in a heavy slick high wing load powered airplane.

I've flown at least a couple powered airplanes and I may come in with a tight pattern- I'll still be touching down with full flaps in almost every one of them.

I'll agree to the premis on Cirrus type newer aircraft.
But how much excess energy do you really have when you are bucking a 25-30knt wind?

I did mention in a previous thread that landing our Janus C without landing flaps and with an extra 5knts airspeed at touch down can double the landing distance required .. very poor brakes.

But I will not agree to the premis on the old C-172/182/206 or Piper Hershy Bar winged aircraft.

 

[Matthew]

Got another early start today - three more flights this morning, all unassisted. The CFI kept his mouth shut the entire third flight. After we landed he told me to start preparing myself to solo.

After we put everything away, the towpilot, also a CFI-G, asked if I wanted to fly around for a bit in a Citabria he rents. Well, yeah.

We cruised around and found a couple of corn mazes. Attached pictures of one of them, I couldn't get the other, but it wasn't nearly as elaborate. It took me a few minutes to realize there was a design cut into the field.

The field between the maze and the airplane is a pumpkin patch. The pumkins could be clearly seen from the air, but my cellphone couldn't pick them up very well.

Then we headed out to another airport for a BBQ lunch before flying back home.

This was a good day

 

[rottydaddy]

What Tony says. I had a "Ride" up and on a windy day.. all was well as we were riding "Wave" at the departure end of the runway about 1000ft above pattern altitude. We were in the 2-33, maintaining 55-60knts face into the wind and going no where, not up, not down, not forward.. then we started backing up. The winds just picked up.

A call to glider ops and it was 25G35 on the ground but straight down the runway. Then we started loosing altitude with the increased speed airspeed. Did I say it was a 2-33?

At pattern altitude I turned downwind, that lasted about 1min and a mile and a half later I turned base before I got abeam the approach end. I had to crab 60 degrees into the wind on base leg to not get pushed farther out. Turning final I had 70knts plus into the wind and with judicious use of spoilers landed helicopter style onto the runway.

If I had been speed limited with flaps (Vfe) would not have been good.

In conditions like that, must feel good to have a 2-33 around you... I think you'd have to hit another 2-33 to really get hurt in one.

It's revelatory for a power pilot like myself to finally see exactly what the spoilers do (with a 2-33 at any rate): They are not speed brakes and not flaps. And they sure work great when you need them, and can wreak havoc with an approach if you deploy them when you don't need them. So far I've done much better if my mistake happened to be not getting them out soon enough, but not the other way around!

Power aircraft attempting to land into the wind were maintaining close to cruise power settings for their draggy, flapped, 3 degree glide slope trying to fly approach at 70-75knts.

I chatted with them later, they had seen my approach and landing. Why flaps? "I always use flaps for minimum touch down speed" was the standard answer. Why a flat approach? "That is what I was taught", the standard VASI glide path.

We discussed how the "glider pilot techniques" would have made their approach a lot easier on them and their airplane.

Those guys need to do power-off approaches more often... if you're carrying lots of power on final just because the wind is strong, you've already made a mistake. No big deal when the fan is turning, but if it stops...
But I'm nobody special- I got spoiled too, even doing the occasional "simulated engine out" stuff...until I started gliding.
Nothing cures those bad habits like flying an approach when there is no chance of saving your bacon with power.

 

[tonycondon]

i had a nice flight today. Vintage Sailplane Association meet in Wichita. We gave some presentations this morning then flew this afternoon. my first flight was about 1:45. At one time we had 7 or so vintage and classic gliders in a thermal. that was really cool. My first climb was the best of the day, I gaggled with a Libelle (from the KC club) up to 6000 MSL. We had a total of 14 different gliders in the air today, and I got some good pictures of about 9 or 10 of the vintage/classic ships arranged in order of construction. Mine was the 3rd oldest.

here is my flight: http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-108341954

 

[BillTIZ]

Those guys need to do power-off approaches more often... if you're carrying lots of power on final just because the wind is strong, you've already made a mistake. No big deal when the fan is turning, but if it stops...
But I'm nobody special- I got spoiled too, even doing the occasional "simulated engine out" stuff...until I started gliding.
Nothing cures those bad habits like flying an approach when there is no chance of saving your bacon with power.

And there you hit the nail on the head.. they did not alter their normal pattern for the wind conditions.. so when they turned base and got pushed another 1/2 mile from the end of the runway, and too low to make a normal power setting descent.. they needed almost cruise power settings to get back to the airport and maintain their 3degree glide path approach.

 

[BillTIZ]

i had a nice flight today. Vintage Sailplane Association meet in Wichita. We gave some presentations this morning then flew this afternoon. my first flight was about 1:45. At one time we had 7 or so vintage and classic gliders in a thermal. that was really cool. My first climb was the best of the day, I gaggled with a Libelle (from the KC club) up to 6000 MSL. We had a total of 14 different gliders in the air today, and I got some good pictures of about 9 or 10 of the vintage/classic ships arranged in order of construction. Mine was the 3rd oldest.

here is my flight: http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=-108341954

Tony.. sounded like fun.. this weekend just may be the last of our big cross country weekends.. 100F and forecast 6knot lift to 12K MSL. But it did not materialize. The smoke from Ventura County fires up high, a lower altitude north breeze developed. Smaller 3-4knt thermals to about 10K MSL, but still soarable.

Keep in mind when I refer to 10K MSL or 12K MSL, the airport is at 2833MSL, we have a ridge pushing 4500MSL within 2 miles of the airport, and the surrounding terrain easily tops 7-10K MSL.

 

[akite]

Wish I was there Tony! I had a nice ridge flight yesterday. I was able to cruise at 90 knts and maintain altitude, stayed up 4.1hrs and had a ball. I will be flying with students most of the week if the weather holds out.