Gov’t shutdown - Anyone else denied service ?

wanttaja said:
Remains to be seen. They're just one Executive Order away from NOT getting the backpay. Did you miss a shift during the shutdown? Did you drive an Uber without prior permission? No back pay for you!

Whether or not this is illegal depends on whether Congress and the Supreme Court backs up the POTUS...which they've shown to be willing to do.

Ron Wanttaja
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People who did work during the shutdown will get the backpay - folks who may not get ( and probably should not ) are federal employees who are furlough as for the them the backpay effectively means additional taxpayer funder vacation - albeit even these folks will almost 100% get their backpay.
The whole thing is just a pointless exercise as pretty much every shutdown means we end paying federal employees not to work( which I guess sometimes may still end up being a net gain for the economy )
 
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Tools said:
What SHOULD happen is go home. And no back pay.

Those at home now should not get back pay, like the faa who responds they’re not gonna respond.

This would end IMMEDIATELY. And not happen again.

Like all things in life, if no adverse consequence for bad behavior, it WILL happen again.

Unpaid Tools 2025 assuming unpaid Tools 2026. Nothing new here…

Frankly, I’m going to work because the young pilots I train are showing up. They deserve better. Without leadership by example, what can I expect them to become?
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You sound like you think the government is shut down because of the employees???
 
Tools said:
Some banks offering to forgive late fees on mortgage payments. Quite a few loans and such available. Theres stuff. Think avail to any fed employee, not just ATC.

Of course if furloughed and NOT working, you COULD go EARN money. Just sayin’.
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You are allowed to go get another job while furloughed, but it's tough when you don't know when you'll be recalled. You are expected to return the next day after Congress votes to reopen.

When the shutdown started we were told to expect a couple weeks.

This is only the second time in US history has gone this long. I just started getting the word out that I was available for contract pilot work this past week, but again....how long am I available? You tell me. My guess is this ends after both parties gauge the fallout on the elections next week, but I've been wrong before.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Not necessarily. It’s not legal for most Federal employees to take outside employment without first obtaining legal permission. Being furloughed doesn’t change that.
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Actually that is not exactly true. That specific issue was addressed when we were furloughed at my job. You are allowed to work on the outside during a furlough. Certain occupations have clauses that you can't work in your specific field on the outside, but those are the exception rather than the norm. For example, my buddy is a DOJ lawyer - he can take a job on the outside, but he can't go work for a law firm doing legal work.

You can also draw unemployment while furloughed, but the catch to that is if they back pay for the furlough, you'll be required to pay the unemployment back.
 
I’m more concerned about the food processing plant inspectors, they are not nearly as well payed as the air traffic controllers, and from my experience with the ones I have known most would really be struggling to make ends meet after a month of no pay. They may love the job (most do NOT), but if it comes down to they need to pay their bills they will leave to take other jobs… they have no choice.. I for one prefer that there is some level of oversight over food production plants, it was implemented for a reason. “The jungle” world 2.0 would be bad. I really like to think food I purchase at a store is safe to eat, but that is just me..
 
eman1200 said:
By “different times” do you mean times when people can make up random things and hope they resonate with people to form uneducated and baseless opinions and confirmation bias?
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Different times as is in who knows what is going to happen with the current administration and the courts.

In the past every time there was a government shutdown, Congress voted to back pay Federal employees who were furloughed, but it wasn't legally required. Then after the last shutdown, Congress approved the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019. That was done to acknowledge that it was BS to hold Federal employees hostage for political posturing and it guaranteed back pay.

But the administration has said they don't think it should apply today and they have threatened to not provide backpay. Whether that is just empty threats for the purpose of political posturing or whether DT intends to hold firm on that no one knows. And if he does make good on his threat, what will happen in the courts? Again, these are indeed different times.

It become almost impossible to tell satire from truth in the news these days...
 
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Not to jump in to the discussion around what should happen, but the original question of - is anyone noticing an impact? My take is that it's interesting that one of the most observable things that there's a problem with is ATC, and that ATC is, I believe, less that 1/2 of 1% of the budget. That leads me to two thoughts. First, that if there's a separate deal to fund ATC, this shutdown could go on indefinitely with many people not feeling any impact. Second, that many people may start to wonder what things can be just eliminated from the budget completely. Keeping this within the guiderails of the forum...I think those things could be overall good for aviation, because the situation points out that one of the things that the feds do that we need is ATC. ( I pulled the adjective "few" out of there.)

One thing that I'll toss out as a possible compromise to a complete shutdown is just to put government agencies in a cost reduction mode. That's easy to do, and it doesn't require firing anyone. First step, you put in a hiring freeze for all agencies. Nobody gets fired, but no promotions, no backfills, no exceptions. That will cut numbers and costs instantly. With that, a freeze on all new contracts and contract renewals until they are reviewed by a specially appointed team. In particular, no additional contractor hires. Next, all grants also need to through review and approval. Finally, each group gets a flat budget of the previous year. No increases. If a supplier increases the costs, they need to purchase less, or cut something else, their call. For those that say this is impossible or naive, these steps have been done by state governments in the past, and they work. It's the equivalent of putting a person on a reduced calorie diet, or a person on an actual diet. They don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.

I think it'll all work out, but maybe I'm too optimistic.
 
I have not been able to get ahold of the FSDO to complete required documentation for LSRI certification or updated airworthiness certifications.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Those guys have a TSP as part of their retirement, they can easily tap that for funds and when the back pay comes they can put it back in TSP.
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This is not true. Similar to 401k's, there are penalties for early withdrawals (10%) and limits on contributions, so you have costs that are very similar to tapping a 401k early. If you're already contributing a the max amount, you won't be able to make up for what you took out. Plus (assuming the market goes up) there's the loss of portfolio growth while your capital's not invested, and potential movement to a higher tax bracket since the withdrawal is counted as income and presumably the gov't will eventually pay their employees.

At any rate, that option doesn't come without substantial drawbacks. You can't just "take it out now and pay it back later" and come out even.

 
eman1200 said:
By “different times” do you mean times when people can make up random things and hope they resonate with people to form uneducated and baseless opinions and confirmation bias?
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By "different times" I think he means we've not had an administration that ping-pongs conflicting ideas around so fast that it's hard to keep up. Prior to 2019, when there was a gov't shutdown, fed workers received back pay, but that was only because it was "tradition" to do so--there was no law mandating it. In 2019 (remember who POTUS was then?) a law was passed guaranteeing back pay for federal workers after a shutdown. Today, the same POTUS has said "there are some people who don't deserve" back pay. So you tell me who's making up random things in hopes they resonate with people.
 
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Jim_R said:
…. So you tell me who's making up random things in hopes they resonate with people.
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Well let’s see, several people just threw random bs out there hoping it sticks and I posted references to facts. So the answer to your question is pretty easy.
 
I have no problem with paying back pay to those who were working during the shutdown. In fact that should be mandatory. What I do have a problem with is paying back pay to those that were furloughed dueing the shutdown. In the non-goverment world you don't get back pay when you are furloughed. Heck one time I was furloughed due to the Federal Government telling companies that they had to reduce flying. This was after the PATCO strike during the Reagan Administration.
 
Jim_R said:
This is not true. Similar to 401k's, there are penalties for early withdrawals (10%) and limits on contributions, so you have costs that are very similar to tapping a 401k early. If you're already contributing a the max amount, you won't be able to make up for what you took out. Plus (assuming the market goes up) there's the loss of portfolio growth while your capital's not invested, and potential movement to a higher tax bracket since the withdrawal is counted as income and presumably the gov't will eventually pay their employees.

At any rate, that option doesn't come without substantial drawbacks. You can't just "take it out now and pay it back later" and come out even.

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Jim, you are quoting the wrong part of the rules, which do have the conditions to prove your point.

LOANS may be taken from the TSP at any time, and there is no penalty for early pay back.

The interest is low, and if you pay the loan off with your make up pay check, the 'loss' is truly trivial.

I am not going to look this up, but I recall that the interest is paid to the "Bank" that made the loan, which is your account.

The interest paid is transferred from your present spendable money, to your retirement spendable money.

The non federal people missing pay will never get theirs.

I am a retired non federal employee who did a lot of federal contract work. One year, all of my work was federal contract.
 
geezer said:
LOANS may be taken from the TSP at any time, and there is no penalty for early pay back.

The interest is low, and if you pay the loan off with your make up pay check, the 'loss' is truly trivial.

I am not going to look this up, but I recall that the interest is paid to the "Bank" that made the loan, which is your account.
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OK, I missed that. So that is also similar to how 401k's work. There are some administrative fees that are small, and again if the market grows faster than the interest rate, you'll lose out on that, but yeah, that's an option.

I would guess though that the folks who need extra cash the most are the ones least likely to have a big enough balance in their TSP to help them out.
 
69 Pages of (PDF) Gubbmint Goodness.

There you go, and FWIW.

My late wife worked for Social Security admin and went through a couple of shutdowns. She was flatly told that she could NOT work anywhere else while she was furloughed. Simply put, she had to sit at home without pay. Yes, she did receive the back pay when the shutdown ended.

I guess the details vary depending on the agency, but again: FWIW.

As far as I'm concerned, "essential employees" -- particularly ATC folks -- who must continue to work without pay are heroes. Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.

--- Stephen
 
StraightnLevel said:
This explains why I’m seeing flight delays out of HOU. Lots of them.
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I spoke to a friend who flew near Houston on an IFR plan. Many denied requests for VFR advisories, ‘stay out of the Bravo’, and even a “Don’t call me, I’ll call you if I need to”. Reminds me an old Sugarloaf tune…

 
I was up with BNA approach the other day and they were not taking any VFR flight following request due to staff shortages. Remain clear Class C.
 
Flying home from Georgia this morning, Jax Approach was great, but then they handed me off to Orlando just south of Leesburg, and Orlando dropped me within 5 minutes. Don't know about today, but on Friday Tampa wasn't providing flight following at all.
 
To get back to the original post, the CFO airport has a contract tower. That means the controllers there work for a private company and not for the United States. These contracts have already been funded and are not affected by the current shutdown idiocy.
The CFO tower may or may not be understaffed, as many contract towers are. In this case the denial of service was not likely due to the shutdown. The recommendation to call the tower during normal business hours and ask for the reasoning is good advice.
Jon
 
San Antonio approach was not supporting practice approaches today; I don’t know if this is due to shutdown or not. B
 
4CornerFlyer said:
To get back to the original post, the CFO airport has a contract tower. That means the controllers there work for a private company and not for the United States. These contracts have already been funded and are not affected by the current shutdown idiocy.
The CFO tower may or may not be understaffed, as many contract towers are. In this case the denial of service was not likely due to the shutdown. The recommendation to call the tower during normal business hours and ask for the reasoning is good advice.
Jon
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I was out there today to work on the airplane so I didn't talk to the tower, but maybe tomorrow (Monday) I'll give them a call and see what's happening with them. I know most of them, including the manager. But to repeat my original comment - the OP claimed CFO gave odd directions at 8:45 pm but the CFO tower closes at 7:00 pm. So who was he talking to?
 
Heliflyer5 said:

Gov’t shutdown - Anyone else denied service ?​

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Last week, kmaf; notam says ‘cant accommodate vfr traffic’.


Today, kaus; briefer says “expect delays” - asking for clearance, ‘You’re not getting into kaus today; staffing’.
(I arranged for a nearby destination, kedc, then negotiated with approach to get into kaus after all)
 
Tools said:
I do. They have it no worse than any of the rest of us not getting paid.

Don’t like it, quit. Stay for the money, well, now we know something.

Our govt is no different than any other entity. If you don’t like what they are doing, quit. That’s the ONE THING we have. And money ain’t everything.

Active military a little different… THEM I’ll support to my bankruptcy hearing!
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Understand that people who choose to go Civil Service do so knowing they will make less money than in the private sector in exchange for better job security plus the 30 & 55 rule, a guaranteed retirement plan. For some, Civil Service is the only option for their specific interests and training.

ATC is the most obvious example - it's unique & highly specialized, and it really can't be compared or even lumped into the overall category of Civil Service. Very few Civil Service employees willingly gets furloughed, very few in the private sector willingly get laid off. While I was at Boeing we lost the major contract, I offered to be laid off and was refused. Turns out having certain security clearances is precious to the company and it doesn't want to go thru the process to get someone back inside. So I sat for 3 months doing stuff that justified being somewhat productive, just not what I was hired for. It was interesting, but nothing I hadn't done many times before, just not at Boeing. After that time, this Type A personality with a very low threshold of boredom said thank you and went out the door.

What I don't usually add to the reason was the new manager. My boss took a transfer out of state, and the new guy transferred in. He was incompetent, but had a high enough management title they had to keep him employed.
 
It seems to be impacting DFW. At least one day over the weekend, the west side was closed. The conga line for departures was about 30 deep.
Landed last night and the poor ramp controller was struggling. I called 7 times requesting my gate and no response. She was only responding to pushback requests.
After about 15 minutes parked on the taxiway she called me and a couple others and said there's too much congestion, please hold with ground.
Ground had us taxi in a small loop to make room for others. Another 10 minutes of waiting and she cleared us to our spot and subsequent gate.
I felt really bad for her she sounded really stressed.

I don't have any specifics about delays yesterday but it is the most packed I have seen the airport terminal in the 3 months I have been flying from DFW.
The crowd around all of the gates in B terminal were massive.
 
murphey said:
While I was at Boeing we lost the major contract, I offered to be laid off and was refused. Turns out having certain security clearances is precious to the company and it doesn't want to go thru the process to get someone back inside. So I sat for 3 months doing stuff that justified being somewhat productive, just not what I was hired for. It was interesting, but nothing I hadn't done many times before, just not at Boeing. After that time, this Type A personality with a very low threshold of boredom said thank you and went out the door.
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Security clearance not always a guarantee at Boeing. About ten years ago, we lost a proposal for a major contract, and several of my friends got laid off, despite the high clearance level. Due to the union contract, they got a *very* nice severance package.

Working out of Seattle is a bit different...unlike LA, there's no similar companies eager to hire you if you leave Boeing. "Tree-huggers," we're sometimes called, due to our reluctance to move out of the area.

At the same time, I was offered (threatened with?) a new job at Boeing. The 767 tanker program was in trouble, and they caught wind of an engineer with a pilot's license, a good familiarity with the Federal aviation regulations, and the ability to write. Wanted to stay with the space programs, so told my boss, "You've got many communications engineers, but few communiCATING engineers. You don't want to get rid of an engineer who can write well and quickly."

Worked a small proposal (only three cleared persons, two of which were managers) and brought in a few bucks, then we got the small space program that turned out to be my swan song before retirement.

Ron Wanttaja
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It seems to be impacting DFW. At least one day over the weekend, the west side was closed. The conga line for departures was about 30 deep.
Landed last night and the poor ramp controller was struggling. I called 7 times requesting my gate and no response. She was only responding to pushback requests.
After about 15 minutes parked on the taxiway she called me and a couple others and said there's too much congestion, please hold with ground.
Ground had us taxi in a small loop to make room for others. Another 10 minutes of waiting and she cleared us to our spot and subsequent gate.
I felt really bad for her she sounded really stressed.

I don't have any specifics about delays yesterday but it is the most packed I have seen the airport terminal in the 3 months I have been flying from DFW.
The crowd around all of the gates in B terminal were massive.
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Maybe volume was higher due to everyone wanting to see their favorite YouTuber taxi in?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It seems to be impacting DFW. At least one day over the weekend, the west side was closed. The conga line for departures was about 30 deep.
Landed last night and the poor ramp controller was struggling. I called 7 times requesting my gate and no response. She was only responding to pushback requests.
After about 15 minutes parked on the taxiway she called me and a couple others and said there's too much congestion, please hold with ground.
Ground had us taxi in a small loop to make room for others. Another 10 minutes of waiting and she cleared us to our spot and subsequent gate.
I felt really bad for her she sounded really stressed.

I don't have any specifics about delays yesterday but it is the most packed I have seen the airport terminal in the 3 months I have been flying from DFW.
The crowd around all of the gates in B terminal were massive.
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I think at some airports, ramp control is not done from the Tower. It’s done by airport personnel or the airlines themselves. Do you know for sure the ramp controllers there are FAA Employees?
 
I’ve seen that sort of congestion a dozen times at a dozen airports…. JFK, LGA, LAX, ATL, DFW. MSP, ORD, KOSH, CLT, PHL, EWR, BOS.

Still possibly due to sick outs, but it’s nothing really out of the norm of any system glitch. Any system at critical mass, is subject to big problems with little glitches.

If ONE MAJOR AIRPORT did a complete shutdown… THEN there would be some real pressure.
 
Heliflyer5 said:
Tonight I came back to KCFO at 8:45 local. First call, 10 miles south inbound for touch and go’s.
“Negative, no touch and go’s remain outside class D airspace”. Confused, I was getting close to the the Class D vail so I bank east into the black abyss. I called back and said this is my (temp) home base, is the airport closed? “Cleared to land 35R, full stop”.
...
I’m thinking the controller wanted only to do the bare minimum due to the shutdown
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The shutdown has affected ATC services. I've been training for my instrument rating here in the Seattle area. In this area it's normal during peak busy times for them not to clear practice approaches. About a month ago right after the govt shutdown, they were occasionally not issuing IFR clearances at all. We heard things like, "No GPS, no IFR clearance" (my airplane is equipment SDF). Or, "It's VFR, go fly VFR.". However, yesterday we flew IFR with no problems. The service is inconsistent, at least for those of us flying little bug squashers, and probably will be until things get back to normal.
 
I had three work trips this month and the only hiccup was sitting on a taxiway for 40 minutes at LAG Friday afternoon awaiting departure clearance. Don't know if it was staffing, weather, or just LAG.
 
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