Gov’t shutdown - Anyone else denied service ?

What SHOULD happen is go home. And no back pay.

Those at home now should not get back pay, like the faa who responds they’re not gonna respond.

This would end IMMEDIATELY. And not happen again.

Like all things in life, if no adverse consequence for bad behavior, it WILL happen again.

Unpaid Tools 2025 assuming unpaid Tools 2026. Nothing new here…

Frankly, I’m going to work because the young pilots I train are showing up. They deserve better. Without leadership by example, what can I expect them to become?
 
ATC is getting screwed, plain and simple.
Backpay and all that **** aside, most of us would be pretty ****ed off if our jobs said "hey you still have to come to work like normal but we're just going to stop paying you for the foreseeable future!".
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
ATC is getting screwed, plain and simple.
Backpay and all that **** aside, most of us would be pretty ****ed off if our jobs said "hey you still have to come to work like normal but we're just going to stop paying you for the foreseeable future!".
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I don’t see many arguments against those points.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, but cash flow is an issue. Many people don't have several months of income saved, and even if they do they lose earnings, and possibly pay penalties, by having to tap it.
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Those guys have a TSP as part of their retirement, they can easily tap that for funds and when the back pay comes they can put it back in TSP.
 
I do. They have it no worse than any of the rest of us not getting paid.

Don’t like it, quit. Stay for the money, well, now we know something.

Our govt is no different than any other entity. If you don’t like what they are doing, quit. That’s the ONE THING we have. And money ain’t everything.

Active military a little different… THEM I’ll support to my bankruptcy hearing!
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, but cash flow is an issue. Many people don't have several months of income saved, and even if they do they lose earnings, and possibly pay penalties, by having to tap it.
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Doc Holliday said:
Those guys have a TSP as part of their retirement, they can easily tap that for funds and when the back pay comes they can put it back in TSP.
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Plus, they kinda sorta know it can happen occasional, so having some sort of emergency fund tucked away should be a no-brainer.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
ATC is getting screwed, plain and simple.
Backpay and all that **** aside, most of us would be pretty ****ed off if our jobs said "hey you still have to come to work like normal but we're just going to stop paying you for the foreseeable future!".
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These are professional positions that require extensive training, years of experience, and include retirement plans, paid leave, and sick days. They generally pay well into the six figures. It’s difficult to imagine them living paycheck to paycheck or taking on side jobs as bartenders to make ends meet.

By contrast, I have deep empathy for those earning minimum wage and struggling to get by each month. These workers often lack union representation, receive no benefits, and are rarely acknowledged for the importance of their labor. I’m sure many who clean and maintain government buildings are now out of work, and they may be the ones who are taking other jobs to make ends meet, yet few seem to be talking about them.
 
pfarber said:
What I want to know is how 'essential' workers can be forced to work without pay. Indentured servitude is illegal, is it not?
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When government employees accept their jobs there is a list of items they have to sign and accept as part of taking the job. Included in that is acknowledging they are in a essential position and may be expected to work in times such as what's happening right now. No different than a private employer making a condition of employment in a similar situation (loss of contract, etc)

FAA ATC and certain positions within Flight Standards are essential due to the safety nature of the job. EVERYONE taking these jobs understands what's involved before signing that document and being sworn in.
 
The whole idea that ATC (or any government worker) should not be paid while the politicians are in a ****ing match is ludicrous. Is the federal government still collecting taxes, is the Treasury void of money?! Hell no! These workers can and should be paid while the politicians work on how they will collectively screw the country for another fiscal year.

We are being bribed with our own money.
 
Stephen Shore said:
The whole idea that ATC (or any government worker) should not be paid while the politicians are in a ****ing match is ludicrous. Is the federal government still collecting taxes, is the Treasury void of money?! Hell no! These workers can and should be paid while the politicians work on how they will collectively screw the country for another fiscal year.

We are being bribed with our own money.
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“The government you elect is the government you deserve.” Thomas Jefferson​

 
sarangan said:
These are professional positions that require extensive training, years of experience, and include retirement plans, paid leave, and sick days. They generally pay well into the six figures. It’s difficult to imagine them living paycheck to paycheck or taking on side jobs as bartenders to make ends meet.

By contrast, I have deep empathy for those earning minimum wage and struggling to get by each month. These workers often lack union representation, receive no benefits, and are rarely acknowledged for the importance of their labor. I’m sure many who clean and maintain government buildings are now out of work, and they may be the ones who are taking other jobs to make ends meet, yet few seem to be talking about them.
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I suppose it's because we're on an aviation board that we we're focused on ATC, but the other people do not go unnoticed.
And sure, I doubt most controllers are going to be the first in line at foodbanks when the check doesn't clear. Then again, who knows? Income level is not any kind of a guarantee of budgeting and planning abilities.
 
To answer the OPs question - I've heard FF denied in and around my area, even on the ATIS's sometimes. I have not had any issues with any IFR clearances.

On the pay issue - Are there any orgs that are helping ATC personnel with essentials during this time? that's the kind of stuff I can get behind - would volunteer/donate to. Something to help close the gap until the money starts flowing again.

On a less serious note - if C90 is willing to sell me some Bravo clearances, I'm enough of a capitalist to be willing to invest in that *cough cough*. like $10 for an outer ring clearance - $25 for inner ring... just need to request flight following with a "secret coupon code"...
 
kaiser said:
On a less serious note - if C90 is willing to sell me some Bravo clearances, I'm enough of a capitalist to be willing to invest in that *cough cough*. like $10 for an outer ring clearance - $25 for inner ring... just need to request flight following with a "secret coupon code"...
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"This is N1234 with request."

"N1234, are you a Sapphire Preferred Member?"
 
geezer said:
When I was drafted from a good paying job, and paid $3 a day, with jail for an alternate if I walked out, that was involuntary servitude, near slavery
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I was drafted too, but only after flunking the initial physical for warrant officer flight training. Instead of involuntary servitude, I call it serving your country.
 
schmookeeg said:
I have a friend who asked his FSDO for a ferry permit before this shutdown business. He got kicked to a DAR

Now that we're IN a shutdown, one of the FSDO critters apparently called him to remind him that he needs the DAR and not to just YOLO it -- because "we watch flightaware" -- like, these jerks didn't have time for a ferry permit review but they have time to place menacing calls to their disappointed customers and creep flightaware looking for busts?

F that whole agency at this point. Nothing but a pension farm.
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If they are truly affected by the shutdown (ie they are furloughed and not excepted employees) then it is actually illegal for them to be 'monitoring Flightaware' to enforce compliance matters.

That'd be a fun court case for some defense attorney it they ever tried to violate someone.

I'm not saying anyone should break the rules, but it is absolute BS if a federal employee is trying to play that game. And I say that as a Federal Employee currently furloughed.
 
kaiser said:
To answer the OPs question - I've heard FF denied in and around my area, even on the ATIS's sometimes. I have not had any issues with any IFR clearances.

On the pay issue - Are there any orgs that are helping ATC personnel with essentials during this time? that's the kind of stuff I can get behind - would volunteer/donate to. Something to help close the gap until the money starts flowing again.

On a less serious note - if C90 is willing to sell me some Bravo clearances, I'm enough of a capitalist to be willing to invest in that *cough cough*. like $10 for an outer ring clearance - $25 for inner ring... just need to request flight following with a "secret coupon code"...
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I've seen local flight schools and fbo's buy atc lunch. But nothing more than that.

Had dinner with a C90 controller last night (sisters boyfriend). I'm sure he could be persuaded to issue a clearance to the right individual.
 
Some banks offering to forgive late fees on mortgage payments. Quite a few loans and such available. Theres stuff. Think avail to any fed employee, not just ATC.

Of course if furloughed and NOT working, you COULD go EARN money. Just sayin’.
 
Tools said:
Some banks offering to forgive late fees on mortgage payments. Quite a few loans and such available. Theres stuff. Think avail to any fed employee, not just ATC.

Of course if furloughed and NOT working, you COULD go EARN money. Just sayin’.
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Not necessarily. It’s not legal for most Federal employees to take outside employment without first obtaining legal permission. Being furloughed doesn’t change that.
 
I'll be honest. I'd like to know how much we're saving per day with this shutdown, because at most I am mildly inconvenienced so far, and would rather just pay down our absurd debts. (yes I know "back pay" means we're not saving jack, and we're paying full fare for no-work)

Yeah I know that's perfect fuel to create an economic depression, but... we gotta rip this bandaid off at some point if most gooberment jobs are just make-work BS jobs. Which is my current presumption.
 
Piperonca said:
I was drafted too, but only after flunking the initial physical for warrant officer flight training. Instead of involuntary servitude, I call it serving your country.
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I was responding t a previous post that the controllers were in involuntary servitude.

When they get paid, even the lowest paid of them will receive more FOR THEIR TIME DURING THE SHUTDOWN (edited in) than I did in 2 years.
My other loss was set back promotions that resulted in all my pay for 36 years was about 10% less than if I was not drafted.

That was not quite legal, but the first Promotion Passover cost more in legal costs than it gained.

I served with the best of my abilities, exceeded most of my peers, and achieved top grades in my school.

I volunteered for advanced jobs, and found that I was far better than the incumbent had been, the Major arranged for me to stay.

I was commended by the Commanding General of SETAF as he presented the First Place Trophy for the command rifle matches There were about 6,000 contestants.

Yes, I served my country well, but paid a high financial price. The increase in my Social Security check from those 2 years at less than $3 a day is less than a dollar. The reduction in my SS check from the lower annual pay all those years is much more than a dollar.

ATC employees are not going to pay any significant price, and those who do have failed at budgeting.
 
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AlleyCat67 said:
Not necessarily. It’s not legal for most Federal employees to take outside employment without first obtaining legal permission. Being furloughed doesn’t change that.
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Can’t see that being a problem.

It’s easy to use rules as an excuse.

What’s the worst that could happen? Get fired? Then you’d not get paid for not working. Horrible lesson to teach your kids… or you could try to improve your situation.
 
Not getting paid sucks. However, the government isn't some fly by night operation. I know guys that have worked for people under the assumption they'll get paid eventually. Only to never get paid.

I do jobs under a pay when paid contract. Or 10-20% holdback that goes into escrow when the entirety of the job is completed. I'm but a small cog in the totality of a job and it might take a year to get all what I'm owed. Meanwhile I'm still out my costs on labor an materials. It sucks not knowing when you'll get that 60k check. But I know it will be coming and I plan (and bid) accordingly.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'll be honest. I'd like to know how much we're saving per day with this shutdown, because at most I am mildly inconvenienced so far, and would rather just pay down our absurd debts. (yes I know "back pay" means we're not saving jack, and we're paying full fare for no-work)

Yeah I know that's perfect fuel to create an economic depression, but... we gotta rip this bandaid off at some point if most gooberment jobs are just make-work BS jobs. Which is my current presumption.
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It's not just the alleged BS jobs. I'm no longer a contractor but I've been thru other shutdowns which are known as "stop-work orders". We're not allowed to work on any Federal contract, not even for free. If I wanted to get a paycheck I had a few options: 1) work on proposals (which I enjoy) that are paid using B & P money - bid & proposal which is 100% company money, an expense and "cost of business" whether we get the contract or not. Not everyone is offered nor qualified to work on proposals. 2) use vacation/sick/PTO time, 3) go home, wait for a phone call/email and accept there's no paycheck now or backpay when things re-open.

Things that are shut down or highly reduced now (or during the last 8 months) are medical research into the flu, various forms of cancer, improved weather forecasting for aviation, FDA (working at 85% capacity right now), BLM (at about 60% but don't plan to use the potty at a federal park), CISA (the agency that protects the US Gov from cyber attacks), and...well, you can find the list for yourself. 85% of NASA is closed. Everything public-facing (web, phone calls, email, etc) is down as is all research. Skeleton crew keeping ISS operational and the satellites.

The entire Library of Congress (a single name for a large collection of buildings as well as resources) is shut down. Total. Completely. 100%.

Because you're lucky that it may be a mild inconvenience to you does not mitigate the long-term financial impact of 30-60 days of less money in the economy. When covid hit, one of the most popular & locally owned (for over 40 years) restaurants in Denver closed in 3 months. To this day, the building is still empty. The big name chains, of course, could weather the storm but not the independents. Walmart has even admitted it's going to take a substantial hit. About 25% of Walmart's business is SNAP, forecast is $2 Billion loss for each month SNAP is not distributed. Regardless of your opinion of Walmart, this can lead to reduced hours for employees which means again, less money in the economy.

Too many people claim there's too much bloat in the government without understanding how the economy works. Is there bloat? Definitely....most DoD contracts are designed that way because the contractors can get away with it...fortunately, less and less the past 20 years.

Anything else I'd really like to write will violate TOS around here.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'll be honest. I'd like to know how much we're saving per day with this shutdown, because at most I am mildly inconvenienced so far, and would rather just pay down our absurd debts. (yes I know "back pay" means we're not saving jack, and we're paying full fare for no-work)

Yeah I know that's perfect fuel to create an economic depression, but... we gotta rip this bandaid off at some point if most gooberment jobs are just make-work BS jobs. Which is my current presumption.
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Your current presumption. Let me offer 40+ years of being a Federal contractor (mostly USAF, NASA, FAA and a short trip to BLM). The people doing the hard work, the "boots on the ground" as the Army puts it, are not make-work jobs. These are people doing serious and important work, and most know they can make more money in industry instead of civil service. But they choose civil service for many reasons. My mom was civil service and could never understand why I didn't go that direction. Mostly because I wanted to choose what I worked on, have more flexibility where to live and who to work for.

Guess where I saw the most bloat - middle management. There's really no difference between government service and industry - the Peter Principle exists everywhere.
 
Bob Noel said:
even better would be platinum elite superior diamond member
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You’re not mentioning the MEGA and Ultra levels. MEGA assigns you a security detail, clears the airspace, and gives you a fighter escort to wherever you’re going.
 
Piperonca said:
You’re not mentioning the MEGA and Ultra levels. MEGA assigns you a security detail, clears the airspace, and gives you a fighter escort to wherever you’re going.
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I was paying homage to a movie...
 
Piperonca said:
You’re not mentioning the MEGA and Ultra levels. MEGA assigns you a security detail, clears the airspace, and gives you a fighter escort to wherever you’re going.
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So does being a P-rec… you know, the prohibited area recreational flyer.
 
Our country is going to show lower growth this quarter as a result of the government shutdown and all that it affects. Airline financial performance is an example we can understand and use as an example. Consider all of the adjacent secondary and tertiary businesses affected by air transport related effects.

Not discussing the detrimental or beneficial long-term consequences of the shutdown or principles of shutdown. All I know is that when my various Fortune 500 employers focused more on monthly and quarterly results than longer term finance, it was a downward spiral, and Chapter 11 in one case.
 
Cmi feels less friendly/happy than usual, and it also seems positions are combined more then usual. I haven't heard of any denied requests though.

I had an unusually friendly and chipper c90 controller this morning. I was kind of expecting to get cut loose, but he was great and coordinated my transition of Lewis for me on my way into Clow.

I know they're well paid, and going to get back pay, but it's still BS. It's a stressful job to begin with, then the understaffing and 6 day work weeks, and now this. I wouldn't blame anyone for calling out in this environment. Hopefully not all at the same time....
 
Jim K said:
I know they're well paid, and going to get back pay...
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Remains to be seen. They're just one Executive Order away from NOT getting the backpay. Did you miss a shift during the shutdown? Did you drive an Uber without prior permission? No back pay for you!

Whether or not this is illegal depends on whether Congress and the Supreme Court backs up the POTUS...which they've shown to be willing to do.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Things felt a little odd when I flew last weekend. I was given an unexpected (and, as it turned out, incorrect) departure frequency, so it was a bit of a cluster to get things sorted. Similar goat rodeo on the flight home. Wonder if they had to pull in new folks to staff the sector...
schmookeeg said:
I'd like to know how much we're saving per day with this shutdown
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n=1, but IMO the savings will be negative. The mere threat of a shutdown results in losses due to contingency planning. Knowing the next CR is only X months away also makes planning challenging, the equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck. The costs of an actual shutdown and subsequently ramping back up are tremendous, more like turning off a base load power plant than a light switch. Essential personnel are hamstrung. Attrition is real. Brain drain is real. Loss of momentum, morale and team cohesion are real.
 
wanttaja said:
Remains to be seen. They're just one Executive Order away from NOT getting the backpay. Did you miss a shift during the shutdown? Did you drive an Uber without prior permission? No back pay for you!

Whether or not this is illegal depends on whether Congress and the Supreme Court backs up the POTUS...which they've shown to be willing to do.

Ron Wanttaja
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Can you provide an example of a time when ATC didn’t get their back pay?
 
late to this party; my apologies, my wretched airplaneless hypercommute has been getting in the way of my parasocial life. What's all this smoke about indentured servitude? Yes we do exist, no we're not the majority out there. next.

ArrowFlyer86 said:
Income level is not any kind of a guarantee of budgeting and planning abilities.
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and it really runs the gamut. In many instances it can be inversely proportional. Some of my more left-seaty airline pilot peers come to mind. I have one that's straight walking stereotype, down to wife #3 and a fully-leveraged potemkin village of toys and perma-collateralized human relationships (don't cancel me).

On the other end of the spectrum you have people in my paygrade currently tapping loans against TSP to pay child support this month; he can't do both the support order and pay the revolving axe job he got at the state's property division/divorce order. It's bad enough for me to have one govt (fed) threaten me with imprisonment over indentured servitude, but to have a second govt do so concurrently (state + fed) over having to pay for the kids to stay in the marital home, pay for the marital home without the benefit of its usufruct, and also pay her to take Jody to a dinner-and-slammat, is str8 diabolical work... as my Gen-Alpha spawn would quip. Only time in life I managed to get ahead of my username, was not spawing with my first strike. :fingerwag:
 
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