G3X Upgrade questions

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IBEZY

Filing Flight Plan
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IBEZY
I've been considering a panel upgrade from a while now on my turbo arrow and am curious on the typical amount of hours of labor required to install the following:
-G3X
-GTX 345
-GTR 205
-GI 275
-PMA 450b
-GFC 500 w/ pitch trim

I am currently waiting on a couple of quotes to come in and just want to make sure they aren't inflated. I have a quote for a similar setup from back in 2022 and it was around 445hrs for the install which seems pretty high.
 
There is rarely something like a „similar“ set-up in the avionic world.

It is not unusual to see garden variety in the estimated hours. Same is true for panel cutting or harnesses.

Not sure if this proposed set-up makes really sense. G3X with a/p but no GPS navigator is highly unusual. If there is already one in place, the integration will take a few hours.

Reconsider the GI275. GI275 and GFC500 do not play as nice together as the G5 / GFC500 combo.
 
aggiepack said:
There is rarely something like a „similar“ set-up in the avionic world.

It is not unusual to see garden variety in the estimated hours. Same is true for panel cutting or harnesses.

Not sure if this proposed set-up makes really sense. G3X with a/p but no GPS navigator is highly unusual. If there is already one in place, the integration will take a few hours.

Reconsider the GI275. GI275 and GFC500 do not play as nice together as the G5 / GFC500 combo.
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That’s a ton of hours

I’d also maybe not get the pitch trim, on most planes manually trimming is better for a number of reasons
 
The hours can vary widely. Much depends upon what has been installed in the past and how it was installed. I upgraded a 2000 182S last year and my avionics tech found that prior installs left old wiring in place and just cut off the terminations. Over 21lbs of old wire/terminations and only necessary wires for active components retained. He could have saved a dozen hours (probably more) by just adding in necessary new wiring but neither of us found that acceptable; I gladly paid the extra hours necessary. On an aircraft 20 years or more older than mine, one can find a bird’s nest behind the panel that needs significant time to sort out.
 
450hrs doesn’t seem high at all for what you’re asking for, especially when it comes to wiring, testing, and configuring all the boxes on top of cutting a fitting a new panel.
 
aggiepack said:
There is rarely something like a „similar“ set-up in the avionic world.

It is not unusual to see garden variety in the estimated hours. Same is true for panel cutting or harnesses.

Not sure if this proposed set-up makes really sense. G3X with a/p but no GPS navigator is highly unusual. If there is already one in place, the integration will take a few hours.

Reconsider the GI275. GI275 and GFC500 do not play as nice together as the G5 / GFC500 combo.
Click to expand...

Slight mistake on the original post, It was supposed to include the GTN 650Xi

Great info, I was curious why everyone was choosing the G5 over the GI 275 in newer installs. Is there a loss of functionality or does it have to do with the complexity of the install?
 
Not really.
GI 275 interfaces to the G3X via RS-232 and not via CAN-BUS. As a result GI275 as a stand-by cannot be interfaced with two navigators, simply because there are not enough ports. Furthermore GI275 as a back-up cannot be interfaced with the GFC500. All those issues can be avoided with the G5.
 
400+ hours? Holy hell. Measure the distances, get someone like Steinair or Approach Fast Stack to make the cables, and do everything else yourself under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing and will sign the work. Ultimately, you're tearing everything out anyway that isn't basic (starter, lights, flaps, fuel pump, etc.) circuitry. 450 hours is insane. For 450 hours at $100/hr I'd do it, and I hate that kind of work.

I didn't keep track, but doubt I had much more than 100 hours in installing most of that stuff in my RV-10, including cutting, painting, and labeling the panel.
 
Roller said:
That’s a ton of hours

I’d also maybe not get the pitch trim, on most planes manually trimming is better for a number of reasons
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Get the pitch trim, manual trimming is better? If you worried about runaway trim then be sure to know where the circuit breaker is located. Theres 3 ways to disconnect the autopilot, button on yoke, button on controller, and circuit breaker. I’ve never needed the last two.
Auto trim allows the autopilot to fly the plane without your help, which makes it convenient, kinda of why we have an autopilot.

the YAW servo you can do without unless you have a V tail.

By comparison I had G500 AP and G3X without EIS installed for about a 100 hours, but I already had the G5s, magnetometer, GAD29B box and CAN bus wiring. I would expect your maximum estimate would come in around 150 hours.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Get the pitch trim, manual trimming is better? If you worried about runaway trim then be sure to know where the circuit breaker is located. Theres 3 ways to disconnect the autopilot, button on yoke, button on controller, and circuit breaker. I’ve never needed the last two.
Auto trim allows the autopilot to fly the plane without your help, which makes it convenient, kinda of why we have an autopilot.

the YAW servo you can do without unless you have a V tail.

By comparison I had G500 AP and G3X without EIS installed for about a 100 hours, but I already had the G5s, magnetometer, GAD29B box and CAN bus wiring. I would expect your estimate would come in around 150 hours.
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I prefer manual trim big time

Caravans, most all smaller stuff too, you just have a better feel using it, less stuff to break, and smoother application IMO

Yeah you need at least 2 axis

I’ve flown planes with electric and manual and always use the manual when I have the option
 
Roller said:
I’d also maybe not get the pitch trim, on most planes manually trimming is better for a number of reasons
Click to expand...
The G3X autotrim prevents the autopilot from using the autopilot servos to trim the airplane. You want the trim system performing that operation, not the autopilot servos.

The electrically operated trim will still work when the autopilot is not in use.
 
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To be clear, there is manual trim, electric trim which is manually activated and autotrim which is controlled by the auto pilot.

All 3 are options with GFC500.
 
kyleb said:
The G3X autotrim prevents the autopilot from using the servos to trim the airplane. You want the trim system performing that operation, not the autopilot servos.

The manual trim will still work when the autopilot is not in use.
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Ahh, extra servo, yeah I guess that makes sense

One of my old planes just had a light that would go on for trim up or down, pretty simple and less motors weight and all, but I get the appeal

That plane the guy even installed roll trim because we couldn’t manage fuel balance, just left it on both, that was a pain to remove
 
That is plain BS.

I suggest that you take a factory tour. I am not saying that the production is efficient and that there is no room for improvement.
 
IBEZY said:
I've been considering a panel upgrade from a while now on my turbo arrow and am curious on the typical amount of hours of labor required to install the following:
-G3X
-GTX 345
-GTR 205
-GI 275
-PMA 450b
-GFC 500 w/ pitch trim

I am currently waiting on a couple of quotes to come in and just want to make sure they aren't inflated. I have a quote for a similar setup from back in 2022 and it was around 445hrs for the install which seems pretty high.
Click to expand...

That’s pretty much what I got, except I went with a Garmin audio panel and it’s recommended to go with a G5 with the G3X vs the 275. Also, EIS with your G3X and a GTX345R (remote mounted). Exciting!!

It isn’t anything close to 445hrs, shop around. My final bill came in at 151hrs. You can reach out to the guys who did mine. They do great work.
 
Your options are similar to what I had installed. And, It depends on how much other “while we are here” work gets done too. 300 hours doesn’t sound out of place. You will be amazed how functional the new pan is when you start flying it.
 
I would love to work with you on your upgrade!

I will send a message with my email address to get the ball rolling.
 
455 hours is about 11 weeks of full time with one person working on it.

That seems about right for a full panel like you are doing.

My panel was quoted at 10 weeks. But took a bit longer.
 
Pinecone said:
455 hours is about 11 weeks of full time with one person working on it.

That seems about right for a full panel like you are doing.

My panel was quoted at 10 weeks. But took a bit longer.
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Been there, done that in my garage. I still maintain that 450 hours is insane.
 
Pinecone said:
455 hours is about 11 weeks of full time with one person working on it.

That seems about right for a full panel like you are doing.

My panel was quoted at 10 weeks. But took a bit longer.
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They don’t work on it full time, there’s interruptions for:
Ordering/shipping of parts.
Repairs, AOG.
Outside contractors (panel fabrication, labeling, etc) that do specialized work.
Weather events
Employee sickness, vacation, jury duty, etc

My work is always quoted in hours and timelines are always vague.

And 455 is a GFY quote.
 
I will say that if you are interfacing existing equipment that the labor is much higher. Go all Garmin on an entirely new panel, and you’ll save on labor costs. It’s easier and much faster for them to work on.
 
445 hours @ $125 per hour is over $55,000 labor?? That absolute insanity! I just had a G600 Txi, Stec 3100, GI 275 and an autopilot mode controller installed in my 414. I was under $80K all in. I had a pair of GI 275’s and a GFC 500 installed in my 182, we went with manual trim and it’s fine. I’d definitely look at some options.
 
Why would you go with all this new Garmin stuff, then pollute the install with a PS Engineering audio panel? You can have a Garmin GMA 350c audio panel for around the same price.

As far as the labor goes -

They're going to have to design, cut, paint/powder coat, and etch the TC required placards into a new panel. The design work alone takes longer than the cut/paint/etch process.

They're going to have to spend a day just disassembling the interior. Yes, disassembly takes time because it's not just about removing interior. They also have to tag and inventory every removed part to prevent it from getting lost among the parts of the other aircraft that are being worked on there.

If this plane is old and has old dried out interior plastics, now would be the time to replace all of it.

Another couple of days to demolish the previous avionics installation. Removing all components, servos and servo mounts from previous autopilot installation (if applicable), and all previous avionics wiring.

They're going to have to do a set of electrical/harness drawings.

They're going to have to build an entirely new wire harness.

Then the harness is installed.

Then the panel is installed, along with the new components.

The servos will need to be rigged. This requires going through and adjusting the primary cables to maintenance manual spec prior to the servo rigging.

The whole system needs to be programmed and configured.

Then the calibrations. They will have to do the static calibration along with a 91.411/91.413 pitot/static/transponder certification test.

Then they'll have to jack and level the airplane and calibrate the AHRS, standby instrument, and autopilot.

If you're installing an EIS system, the fuel senders will have to be calibrated.

Then the magnetometer has to get calibrated.

All of this takes time gathering all required procedural documentation from each component's installation manual.

Once everything is done, then the rest of the interior will need to get reassembled.

It will probably need to be reweighed for weight & balance after all is said and done.

This is not like taking your car to a car stereo shop and having a stereo system installed. Quite a bit more involved.
 
Jon Wilder said:
Why would you go with all this new Garmin stuff, then pollute the install with a PS Engineering audio panel? You can have a Garmin GMA 350c audio panel for around the same price.
Click to expand...
Because PS Engineering does one thing, and they do it very well.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Garmin's stuff - I have a GMA 350c myself, mainly because of the Telligence voice command function - but the PSE panels are easier to use. Garmin's are OK, but they're somewhat of an afterthought to have a complete product line, IMO. Garmin isn't spending their best engineering talent on audio panels.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Because PS Engineering does one thing, and they do it very well.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Garmin's stuff - I have a GMA 350c myself, mainly because of the Telligence voice command function - but the PSE panels are easier to use. Garmin's are OK, but they're somewhat of an afterthought to have a complete product line, IMO. Garmin isn't spending their best engineering talent on audio panels.
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Seriously? Are we going full audiophile on aircraft audio panels now?

Garmin audio panels don’t sound any different than PSE unless there’s something wrong.
 
I just had a completely new panel installed, ripping out everything I previously had, including my manual trim and installing electric trim.
I already had a GTN 650, but everything else was new and needed installed/wired. I did a G3X system:
- GDU 460
- G5
- GSU 25
- GMU 11
- GEA
- GTR 205x (remote com 2)
- GMA 245
- GMC 507
- 2x GSA 28
- GAD 27
- GAD 29
- GTX 45R
- GTP 59

Total was around 150 hours of labor.
 
Does anyone get pitch trim on both pilot and co-pilot sides?
 
mandm said:
Does anyone get pitch trim on both pilot and co-pilot sides?
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Have never thought of that. My guess is that would not be available, in that the AP unit probably was never built to interpret two different commands from two controllers. Also begs the question of what should the appropriate response of the trim system be in that situation?
 
WDD said:
Have never thought of that. My guess is that would not be available, in that the AP unit probably was never built to interpret two different commands from two controllers. Also begs the question of what should the appropriate response of the trim system be in that situation?
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The switches would just be wired in parallel to the single controller. The only issue would be if both pilot and copilot tried to operate at the same time.
 
Adam Weiss said:
The switches would just be wired in parallel to the single controller. The only issue would be if both pilot and copilot tried to operate at the same time.
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Copy that - which will happen. And one may trim up, the other down. I also don't see a benefit in a Cessna or Piper 4 seater GA plane.
 
Tom J said:
and it had a cutout switch to disable the copilot.
Click to expand...

That could be very helpful if you have an annoying, chatty right seater- but what about the copilot trim control?
 
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