Equity or non-equity club? How many planes did you have access to?
Flying clubs - the good , bad and ugly
- Thread starter Pugs
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At 100 hrs a year that’s $180/hr. Not that horrible really. Almost
Certainly less than owning one would cost you.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Where is the LORAN?
40YearDream
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Looks like that ADF is in need of some love -you rang? (yes that's an AV30 matched with those awesome radios)
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Nah, it’s fine. He was just taking a checkride and didn’t want to do an NDB approach.
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I sold my Warrior last year and my Daughter had taken it to AZ for six or so months from Texas so she had something to fly. I ended up selling it out there as she was heading to Alaska and no longer needed. The buyers agent tried to discount the sale due to the “inop” label on the ADF… I inquired to my child as to when that happened and she replied….Check Ride…just had to laugh.Nah, it’s fine. He was just taking a checkride and didn’t want to do an NDB approach.
Club orientation matters - is it designed for travel or training? Or just kinda vague? Check the bylaws fiorst.
I was in a very successful club in MD oriented toward travel. The bylaws were well designed and it worked great for me, but might not have been a good fit for a primary student. Now I'm in a NC club which is doing well, folks cooperative and friendly, good maintenance, and a hangar! Sweet! but I'm not comfortable scheduling the airplane out for a week. I could, by the rules, but I'd not do it more than a couple times a year.
I'm about to join two other guys as ownership partners in a plane, mostly for the much greater scheduling flexibility. If the $$$ works out, I'll probaly stay in the club, to.
I was in a very successful club in MD oriented toward travel. The bylaws were well designed and it worked great for me, but might not have been a good fit for a primary student. Now I'm in a NC club which is doing well, folks cooperative and friendly, good maintenance, and a hangar! Sweet! but I'm not comfortable scheduling the airplane out for a week. I could, by the rules, but I'd not do it more than a couple times a year.
I'm about to join two other guys as ownership partners in a plane, mostly for the much greater scheduling flexibility. If the $$$ works out, I'll probaly stay in the club, to.
Does seem like it can depend a lot on the club. I am in one currently that is very good. $50 a month in dues and unbeatable hourly rates. Planes are taken good care of. Previous maintenance guy let some go but current one is on top of stuff and we are doing lots of upgrades. Members are expected to volunteer for 6 hours a month (attending club meetings counts) which helps with getting stuff done and there are financial penalties if you don’t (don’t know how much that’s enforced). We make it clear for interested members at club meeting that joining the club means you are a part owner and expected to give time helping the club. We also try to only bring on members who seem like they would help. Required to buy 2 hours of flight time a month to keep people flying and can only store up a few months worse. Some members who don’t fly much and forfeit their time definitely help with the financial stability of the club.
Clubs been great for me so far, working with a big group of people will always have some downsides though.
Clubs been great for me so far, working with a big group of people will always have some downsides though.
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They can be a great deal. I loved glying particles in livermore. When i was active, had around 100 active members and 6 planes- from a 152 to an m20
Particulty good for taking planes on multiday trips- no min hrs, but have a daily reservation fee (23.50 for the 172N, 37 for the M20J) tach wet rates (120/175) and a high monthly fee (80)
That incentivizes flying, and to a certain extent, currency.
It’s just too variable a drive for me (can take 90 minutes from the city to livermore) to continue with them
Particulty good for taking planes on multiday trips- no min hrs, but have a daily reservation fee (23.50 for the 172N, 37 for the M20J) tach wet rates (120/175) and a high monthly fee (80)
That incentivizes flying, and to a certain extent, currency.
It’s just too variable a drive for me (can take 90 minutes from the city to livermore) to continue with them
woodchucker
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Only way I can afford to fly is the club I'm in. Us poor people need options too! It's well run and we keep a fixed member number with a waitlist of a year plus. Monthly goes to club expenses and hourly goes to mx reserves. What we do works for us. We do have those that just don't fly, but the planes see plenty of action which covers what needs to be covered for mx.
pfarber
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Not really.
Can you justify the $600k a year in dues alone? That was for outside parking under a shade port for $240 a month. For 6 planes that's $1440 a month.. how is the other $48,560 PER MONTH benefiting club members (long or short term)? For that price they should be flying new AC not 50 year old Pipers and 172s. The 172 I rented had an engine monitor, and Aspen unit and a Garmin 430 (non WASS). That was as high tech as it got.
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- Who you kiddin?
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If they can find a working one among the 170 or so left in the US and its territoriesNah, it’s fine. He was just taking a checkride and didn’t want to do an NDB approach.
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Don’t them shame you. I’ve been flying fairly consistently for over 30 years, enjoying the differences among over 30 different makes and models via clubs, flight schools, and even less formal private rentals. I can count on one hand (if I try really hard) the number of times I’ve had to cancel a trip, even a multi-day one, because of aircraft unavailability.
I’ve been lucky, but it’s about different strokes. Like the details of what a “club” is, there are multiple way to fill the need.
I mentioned fiscal transparency as a key desired characteristic of a club - One of my prior clubs had a really great treasurer who reported every month on finances. I took his idea and adopted it (and continue to evolve it) as treasurer for my club. Thought it might be useful for folks.
In general, our desire is to have monthly dues cover the items to keep the airplane in the hangar and ready to fly with flight hour costs going into upgrades, engine etc.
The dues liabilities are for folks that have paid ahead of time. The money moves among the various bins as needed. I tried to write a formula to do it automatically but have failed so far. We keep a balance for fuel at our 2 local FBOs and they give us a card that stays in the plane so members don't have to pay on their own and get reimbursed for local fuel. They also give us a discount for forward paying for fuel.
In general, our desire is to have monthly dues cover the items to keep the airplane in the hangar and ready to fly with flight hour costs going into upgrades, engine etc.
The dues liabilities are for folks that have paid ahead of time. The money moves among the various bins as needed. I tried to write a formula to do it automatically but have failed so far. We keep a balance for fuel at our 2 local FBOs and they give us a card that stays in the plane so members don't have to pay on their own and get reimbursed for local fuel. They also give us a discount for forward paying for fuel.
Depends. You have shared no information on the structure of the club.
If the club was a non-profit, their 990 return is freely available to review and you would be able to see where the money is going.
$150/hr for a plane with an EFIS GPS and engine monitor is a good deal. Far cheaper than it would be to own.
How much did you have to spend on the annual?
How much did you have to spend on damage repairs?
How much did you spend on regular maintenance?
How much did you have to spend on database updates for the Aspen and Garmin devices?
How much did you have to pay to overhaul the engine?
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Discounting a plane because it doesn't have a working ADF is like discounting a car because it doesn't have a working 8 track player or is missing the cigar lighter.
Even if the directional head doesn't work, you can still pick up sports on AM radio through the audio panel, can't you? What more could you want out of it?Nah, it’s fine. He was just taking a checkride and didn’t want to do an NDB approach.
I’d prefer the 10 pounds back, personally. Getting rid of that ADF and its indicator is on the list of things “to do” when we add an engine monitor to our 172.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
$150 is probably tach reducing the rate down to $138 Hobbs and the scheduling rules likely are more favorable to multi day rentals.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
The club I just departed when I bought the Bonanza had two rules. 1. you had to have a checkflight with an instructor every year to be able to reserve the planes. 2. Every two months, you had a one hour use it or lose it flight charge. This helped a lot of the folks not flying much contribute to the sinking funds.My club has way too many members for one plane yet the plane is still not flying enough. I'm fine w/ it b/c more division of fixed costs and more availability for me
billsgs126
Line Up and Wait
Probably just different verbiage, at my first club everyone needed to be "current" to reserve a time slot. Current being both in dues and checkouts.
billsgs126
Line Up and Wait
I really like your spreadsheet.I mentioned fiscal transparency as a key desired characteristic of a club - One of my prior clubs had a really great treasurer who reported every month on finances. I took his idea and adopted it (and continue to evolve it) as treasurer for my club. Thought it might be useful for folks.
In general, our desire is to have monthly dues cover the items to keep the airplane in the hangar and ready to fly with flight hour costs going into upgrades, engine etc.
The dues liabilities are for folks that have paid ahead of time. The money moves among the various bins as needed. I tried to write a formula to do it automatically but have failed so far. We keep a balance for fuel at our 2 local FBOs and they give us a card that stays in the plane so members don't have to pay on their own and get reimbursed for local fuel. They also give us a discount for forward paying for fuel.
Right now I am sitting on the bleachers and watching as the club I tow for (NOT at HXF) is being rehabilitated. The reformists have put some aircraft costs directly attributable to flight hours (like 100-hour inspections, and consumables with known use rates) on the "Flight hour covered costs" but this is basically what they are setting up.
My first club had a clear vision of what they were. And they had a structured representational board that oversaw the implementation of that vision. This second club was . . . well, it can use a lot of those mission, vision, values, and goals my first club had.
AA5Bman
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Holy hell, this thread prompted me to check out our local club’s website again just for fun - can’t believe the hourly rates, whoa!! What’s the point of being in a club if a legacy 172 costs $175/hr to rent. Maybe I’m out of touch with rental rates these days, but dang…
billsgs126
Line Up and Wait
I don't know where you are. But when I rented the Arrow from an FBO at KUNU (Juneau, Wisconsin) last year, they had a 172 for $140 / hour wet.
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Yikes. Here, where costs are admittedly probably lower than average, i can "rent" the ugly 172M for $107, wet.
The former club lists $145 for an all glass arrow with an autopilot at the high end down to $95 for the somewhat tired warrior. Their rates are dry however, so add another $40/ hour for gas... but they also use tach hours, so anything with a CS prop can be pulled back for a 10-20% discount.
Which brings up another point on clubs. Paying for dry tach hours, I'd run 65% power and lean carefully. Wet Hobbs hours? Full rental power.
DreadPirateWill
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Yikes indeed.
Our club 172 is an M with twin G5 and a 430W.
Local rental at the delta for similar is $190-$250/hr.
We base at an old school airport just north of town in an open T hangar burning Mogas we trailer in($3.87/gal as of today).
Full engine fund with wiggle room for upgrades, yet still manage to keep it at $80/hr wet hobbs.
As the guy who maintains the aircraft I've got no problem with folks running it hard - we average right at 6.5-7gal/hr so I'm fairly sure they're not abusing it. I'd rather run hard than everyone toodling around at 2000 rpm. Burn the carbon out and boil the water please, keeps the engine healthier.
We're a hobbs club (@115 an hour) but I think we're all pretty careful with the engine both in power and CHT tracking. It has 2300 hours on it and it's running great and we'll leave the new one in the hangar as long as possible. It was sure nice to get it over to Middlbury VT (6B0) and get the IFR cert and AP fixed and enjoy flying again. This week is crappy but yesterday was glorious to fly.
Structure means a lot when it comes to a club. At least two local FBOs offer a non-equity ‘club’ subscription. $50/mo gets 10% off the wet rare of their Pt 61 flight school rate. No limits on membership size. They also require a non-owned policy w/$100K hull.
Us? We’re limited to less owners than most folks have fingers and toes. Our dry rate is $85/hr after you burn thru your 20hr block. Tach time. And there’s member that complain about that being expensive.
pfarber
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Yes, for career track pilots… but again, the vast majority of PPL fly less than 20 hrs a year. 5-10 is a more sane number. From my conversation with the MX officer less than 20 people had flown in the last 3 months. So that’s 180 ppl just paying dues.
Again, I’m not concerned with the hourly rate, my beef is with clubs is dues. That money is not for MX, the hourly rate includes that. In the two years I was part of the club the main push was to get an SR22… that’s a million dollar AC that almost none of the ‘rank and file’ would be able to fly due to extremely high requirements.
The old heads screwing over the new folks. It would cost me $50,000 to get the hours (250) plus IFR (another $5-6k) ON TOP of the $3k in dues that goes to NOT making my ‘club experience’ any better.
pfarber
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It was not a non-profit private club. I don’t think many larger clubs are non-profit. The biggest one in my state is not.
So those charges were to companies that held no tax advantage and likely paid salaries. Painting all clubs, especially 501c7s with that broom is disingenuous, but you do you.
If you aren’t flying 20 hours a year, then I agree a club is stupid. You cant stay proficient at 20 hours a year, you shouldn’t be flying without an instructor at all IMO.
While I agree 20hrs/year doesn’t produce much, if any, proficiency, 15+ years of data from our club indicates our average pilot flies 16hrs/yr.
The data shows our pilots that routinely fly 40+ hours/year move on to a different arrangement after 4 or 5 years. Anecdotally, those guys fly more cross countries and move up to a smaller partnership in 135-150kt piston singles right around 500TT. That’s a large part of the ‘why’ we want to add a 182.
The other defining characteristic is an advanced rating. The folks that fly more as a whole are instrument rated.
flyingcheesehead
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It's all about the people. Any club structure can be good or bad, and what's good for you may not be good for others.
Find a club that has the kind of planes you want to fly, equipped how you want. If you can't find that, start your own!
If you just want to be able to bop around the pattern cheaply, one of those clubs with a bunch of old guys who can't/won't fly any more is great as there's plenty of people helping to pay the bills that aren't affecting scheduling. However, if you want to fly newer, fancier, well-equipped airplanes good for long cross country flights, you probably want to steer clear of that.
To me, one of the important aspects of going to a club vs. renting was the ability to schedule planes for longer trips. My longest trip in the club was 19 days and 63 hours.
Also, if fees are set up correctly, there's nothing wrong with "smashing out 1500 hours on the cheap". If all of the variable costs (overhaul reserves, upgrade reserves, maintenance, fuel, consumables) are accounted for in your hourly rates, a person who is time building is not taking advantage of anyone else in the club. My former club was set up that way and we had both time builders and long-term pilots and everyone got along...
We did have a rule that you could only schedule 6 future flights at a time. That prevented anyone from scheduling a Saturday flight lesson every week in perpetuity. You also weren't allowed to schedule anything more than 180 days in advance. Finally, if you had a reservation and you weren't there within a half hour of when it started, it was fair game for another pilot to take the plane. That was all it took to keep everyone happy WRT scheduling, and didn't take away one of the primary "Pros" of the club.
Find a club that has the kind of planes you want to fly, equipped how you want. If you can't find that, start your own!
If you just want to be able to bop around the pattern cheaply, one of those clubs with a bunch of old guys who can't/won't fly any more is great as there's plenty of people helping to pay the bills that aren't affecting scheduling. However, if you want to fly newer, fancier, well-equipped airplanes good for long cross country flights, you probably want to steer clear of that.
That's... Interesting.
To me, one of the important aspects of going to a club vs. renting was the ability to schedule planes for longer trips. My longest trip in the club was 19 days and 63 hours.
Also, if fees are set up correctly, there's nothing wrong with "smashing out 1500 hours on the cheap". If all of the variable costs (overhaul reserves, upgrade reserves, maintenance, fuel, consumables) are accounted for in your hourly rates, a person who is time building is not taking advantage of anyone else in the club. My former club was set up that way and we had both time builders and long-term pilots and everyone got along...
We did have a rule that you could only schedule 6 future flights at a time. That prevented anyone from scheduling a Saturday flight lesson every week in perpetuity. You also weren't allowed to schedule anything more than 180 days in advance. Finally, if you had a reservation and you weren't there within a half hour of when it started, it was fair game for another pilot to take the plane. That was all it took to keep everyone happy WRT scheduling, and didn't take away one of the primary "Pros" of the club.
pfarber
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I have yet to meet a club that was worth a darn. They promise low rentals (kinda sorta) but the to me the reality is that the old heads feed off the transients.
Let me take a local large club, it doesn't claim to be a non-profit nor does it post bylaws online, or membership numbers info.
$175 mo membership and the cheapest rental is $100/hr dry PA-28-140 IFR certified. At 8gal per hour $6/gal that's $156-ish + tax so call it $175 (not including an assumed 3% CC fee). If you fly 20 hours a year that's ($175x12+[$175*20]) $5600 or $280/HR
Lets say you hit the sky 50 hours a year.. that's a lot of recreational time... your per hour cost drops to still whopping $217/hr for a PA-28-140.
I can rent a 172 wet for less than $200/hr at a local airport. 20hrs * $200 = $4000. $1600 less than a 'money saving' club.
The only benefit is that a club *might* have more lenient weekend/overnight fee's. My last club would bill a min 3 hours a day if you took it for a weekend.
I can go on about the membership fees... but its simple math... a club has 300 people @ $175/mo $52,500 in free cash not tied to rental time. Most clubs don't have multiple full time employee's. At my last club IIRC officers were compensated about $25 hr for about 5-10 hours of work a month.
Clubs are like that old t.v. commercial line "The more you spend, the more you save!" lol no. If you are flying 50+ hrs a month its time to start thinking about ownership, not a club.
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DreadPirateWill
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Well, as with many things - it depends. Problem is if you have folks flying the pants off the airplane it puts more pressure on maintenance - even if you're miraculously lucky and it's just oil changes and eventual motor swaps. In our case we do almost exclusively owner Mx, and it's me doing it. I do so in exchange for hours, so it effectively costs the club very little. If we had to budget to actually pay someone for all of our maintenance our rates would go up severely. Our club with its 200-300 hours per year is "reasonable" for the owner Mx, bump that up to 500+ and we'd likely either need a couple of maintenance members or would have to start really looking at keeping an A&P on retainer and pay a heck of a lot more. Finding good maintenance members is not easy.
Side note - this learning was one of the main reasons my dad bought into the club in the first place - to figure out what airplane ownership looks like. We quickly knew that our wholly owned airplanes would have a lot of our fingerprints everywhere for the maintenance to keep it a bit more affordable.
For the long trips, the club has the ability to make allowances - so if someone wanted to take the plane from Eastern WA to Oshkosh or something they'd likely get a nod at standard rates. That said if someone's use case was a lot of long trips not sure I'd recommend our non autopilot 172. I'd also guess if everyone's use case was a lot of multi day weekend away type trips you'd probably be happier in a smaller club, 3 or 4 people on an appropriate plane.
For someone like that, once they start racking up 100 hrs/year regularly, sole ownership or a small partnership is more appropriate for their needs.
We charge a premium for every hour beyond 20 a member flies; though it’s always been less than half the members who fly beyond that. We average 330 hours/year with 12 members and have found availability is the short pole, even with several members who exclusively fly during the week, so we’re looking at purchasing a second plane. The second plane will allow us to expand our membership from 12 to 18 members over time, allowing us to spread our costs across a wider base. A second plane adds about 50% to our fixed expenses with the increased membership mainly driven by insurance.
Your point about maintenance cost is valid, but your rates should reflect your fixed and variable expenses. Our base rate )$55) accounts for fixed expenses, 350hrs/year of variable expenses using paid labor, and an amortized engine and prop reserve. Our premium adds about 30% more to our base rate to account for costs higher than budgeted.
Every club is different and each one needs to find what works for them.
Far be it from me to question what's working for you. I can't agree more with:
That said, I would think it is in the club's interest to have all its members be more active, not less. First, my unprofessional SWAG is that any pilot flying less than 50 hrs/yr is compromised in proficiency. Why penalize the 21st and every subsequent hour flown?
Second, as you note, some members will always fly more than others. More hours flown disperses costs over a greater base of hours. Even stepping past things that are not DOCs -- hangar, insurance, annual -- conventional wisdom is that maintenance is less per hour as hours flown increases.
That being the case, it becomes a mutual cost sharing arrangement. The inactive pilots are benefitting from cheaper hours because active pilots fly more. The active pilots are benefitting from the fixed costs being subsidized by the inactive pilots. At least that's my experience.
So, every member pays an assessment that includes the cost of 20hrs of flying, whether it gets flown or not. That feature was added ~10 years ago because there were more members than flyers and the club was broke. The theory was this would entice the non-flyers into flyers. Well, it didn’t work and in the decade since, the non-flying members have sold their memberships to flyers. Net positive.
I concur, more active flyers is desirable and proficiency is an issue for some, but we can’t force a pilot to fly although we can (and do) prevent scheduling if a current flight review and medical/BM aren’t on file.
As for the premium rate, those who fly more have actually preferred because they felt it gave them more say in upgrades since they were paying in more than the non-flyers. I’ve been on the board for going on four years and am slowly transitioning the club towards a more board directed operation than a consensus building operation. When we add a second plane, I plan to kill off (or significantly reduce)the premium. But that won’t get the (now few in number) non-flyers to fly more.
We have one member who will fly exactly 20.0 hours per year. In his mind, one hour less and he’s being cheated and one hour more isn’t in his budget. He’s publicly stated no pilot should be flying more than 20hrs and no overnights should be allowed, since that impedes others from scheduling the plane.
It is what it is.