Flying clubs - the good , bad and ugly

[flyingcheesehead]

I have yet to meet a club that was worth a darn.

There are plenty of clubs that are well worth it, but every pilot needs to find a club that fits their own mission and desires.

Clubs are like that old t.v. commercial line "The more you spend, the more you save!" lol no. If you are flying 50+ hrs a month its time to start thinking about ownership, not a club.

My previous club, you only needed to fly 3-4 hours per month to break even on the dues compared to the local FBO rentals, and the club's airplanes were FAR nicer. FBO planes were clapped out old Cessnas and Pipers that maybe had a 430 with expired databases if you were lucky. Club planes are a DA40, R182, and a really nice Archer that all have glass and 2-axis autopilots (that work!) with current databases and all the other things.

Well, as with many things - it depends. Problem is if you have folks flying the pants off the airplane it puts more pressure on maintenance - even if you're miraculously lucky and it's just oil changes and eventual motor swaps.

While there are obviously wear items that will go faster if the plane is flown more, there are also a lot of things that work better when the plane is flown regularly. 300+ hours per year on each plane is far better than 50 hours per year.

In our case we do almost exclusively owner Mx, and it's me doing it. I do so in exchange for hours, so it effectively costs the club very little. If we had to budget to actually pay someone for all of our maintenance our rates would go up severely. Our club with its 200-300 hours per year is "reasonable" for the owner Mx, bump that up to 500+ and we'd likely either need a couple of maintenance members or would have to start really looking at keeping an A&P on retainer and pay a heck of a lot more. Finding good maintenance members is not easy.

We were using the local FBO for most maintenance, and flying the planes elsewhere for annuals. Maintenance cost was about $50/hr on the older metal birds and $30/hr on the Diamond pre-pandemic, which is reasonable.

Side note - this learning was one of the main reasons my dad bought into the club in the first place - to figure out what airplane ownership looks like. We quickly knew that our wholly owned airplanes would have a lot of our fingerprints everywhere for the maintenance to keep it a bit more affordable.

This is a great way to learn about ownership! Being on the board of my flying club taught me a LOT about aircraft ownership, and I'm really glad I had that experience.

 

[DreadPirateWill]

There are plenty of clubs that are well worth it, but every pilot needs to find a club that fits their own mission and desires.

Definitely agree

My previous club, you only needed to fly 3-4 hours per month to break even on the dues compared to the local FBO rentals, and the club's airplanes were FAR nicer. FBO planes were clapped out old Cessnas and Pipers that maybe had a 430 with expired databases if you were lucky. Club planes are a DA40, R182, and a really nice Archer that all have glass and 2-axis autopilots (that work!) with current databases and all the other things.

We're still worth it at 2 hours per month, and with a nicer 172.

While there are obviously wear items that will go faster if the plane is flown more, there are also a lot of things that work better when the plane is flown regularly. 300+ hours per year on each plane is far better than 50 hours per year.

True, to a point. One caveat I forgot to mention is we had concern on airframe as well - 10 members going zero to 1500 puts 15000 hours on that bird. 6 engine overhauls and at the end you've got a really high hour bird. We don't currently have a reserve for new airframe in this club. Semi related - carrying too large a contingency fund is a risk as well, I know of a club that got into a situation where mostly non flying members chose to liquidate and walk away with cash.

We were using the local FBO for most maintenance, and flying the planes elsewhere for annuals. Maintenance cost was about $50/hr on the older metal birds and $30/hr on the Diamond pre-pandemic, which is reasonable.

Yeah, we're definitely cheaper than that but at the mercy of having a member like myself who's capable/willing/able to get hands dirty. And keep an A&P IA happy while doing it.

This is a great way to learn about ownership! Being on the board of my flying club taught me a LOT about aircraft ownership, and I'm really glad I had that experience.

100%

 

[pfarber]

I am a way to risk averse to be in a 5-10 member club.. that's more like fractional ownership and the MX costs are split 5-10 ways not 200-300. My current ownership of an E/AB erases 90% of the certificated expense.

My last club had an active dues paying base of $175 a month capped at 200 people for 5 aircraft. Most were non-flyers (for some reason) maybe the club's social status was something I was unaware of. Even then the math, for less than 50 hours a year, didn't work out.

 

[StraightnLevel]

My experience is the non-flyers won’t magically start flying more with block hours.

[...]. On a per pilot basis, 15 years of data tells us the club’s average pilot flies 16 hours/year.

I'm not sure I'd want to have any financial responsibility tied to pilots who fly that infrequently. How proficient can you be at that rate?

 

[TCABM]

I'm not sure I'd want to have any financial responsibility tied to pilots who fly that infrequently. How proficient can you be at that rate?

To a degree, that’s what insurance is for; we’re appropriately insured to replace what we have with a similar aircraft or just dissolve the club and let everyone walk away with at least 1.5x what they bought in for.

The FAA sets minimal requirements to legally operate an aircraft and those don’t define proficiency and our insurer prohibits primary instruction. Clubs are the right answer for many pilots, but not all. Smaller partnerships and even sole ownership does nothing to increase proficiency though; that’s entirely up to the pilot.

 

[Pugs]

I'm not sure I'd want to have any financial responsibility tied to pilots who fly that infrequently. How proficient can you be at that rate?

Depends - We have pilots that fly the club plane that or less but they also own their own plane and/or fly professionally. The guy that has 3000 hours that flew 20 hours last year is different than the guy that just got his ticket and flew 20 hours.

 

[pfarber]

I'm not sure I'd want to have any financial responsibility tied to pilots who fly that infrequently. How proficient can you be at that rate?

bylaws. my old club is if you didn't rent for 90 days you can't reserve a plane until a club CFI checked you out.

so if you're a CFI join a club and make those rules lol

 

[pfarber]

At 100 hrs a year that’s $180/hr. Not that horrible really. Almost
Certainly less than owning one would cost you.

For a time builder? sure. but most members are not. average PPL flies less than 20 hours a year.

The math breaks even at about 50 hours that's $10,000 of disposable income and realistically over 100 hours of time (driving to from/preflight/weather etc)

 

[Salty]

For a time builder? sure. but most members are not. average PPL flies less than 20 hours a year.

The math breaks even at about 50 hours that's $10,000 of disposable income and realistically over 100 hours of time (driving to from/preflight/weather etc)

I don’t think you even know what you are arguing.
You’re mad at clubs because it’s too expensive if you only fly 20 hours a year? As I said before:

If you aren’t flying 20 hours a year, then I agree a club is stupid. You cant stay proficient at 20 hours a year, you shouldn’t be flying without an instructor at all IMO.

So you are right. If you don’t fly, it’s stupid to pay dues to fly. Great job figuring that one out.

 

[pfarber]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175? Before you say 'hangars' or somesuch hourly rates are only about the engine fund, maint, and gas. You can't pay for a hangar without a monthly dues because flying hours are variable while hangars are fixed... so that's not the reason.

Read my posts and look at the cash flow on dues alone. I don't think my last few clubs with over 100 people and 4-6 AC is rare. Heck the local club in the metro area has 6 planes at two fields. You can't do that with only 5 ppl per plane.

And the point is not about clubs vs owning. Its that clubs, for the average person, are not the deal people think they are.

Flying clubs are the vacation timeshares of the sky. It works for a very small minority of the members... they rest just get the annual maintenance fee and two weeks in Florida during the rainy season LOL

 

[Salty]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175? Before you say 'hangars' or somesuch hourly rates are only about the engine fund, maint, and gas. You can't pay for a hangar without a monthly dues because flying hours are variable while hangars are fixed... so that's not the reason.

Read my posts and look at the cash flow on dues alone. I don't think my last few clubs with over 100 people and 4-6 AC is rare. Heck the local club in the metro area has 6 planes at two fields. You can't do that with only 5 ppl per plane.

And the point is not about clubs vs owning. Its that clubs, for the average person, are not the deal people think they are.

Flying clubs are the vacation timeshares of the sky. It works for a very small minority of the members... they rest just get the annual maintenance fee and two weeks in Florida during the rainy season LOL

LOL

It's a shame you can't save all the stupid people from losing money on things that don't make sense to you.

 

[WDD]

Mixing fiscal responsibility and airplane flying in the same conversation - that is a paradox generator if there ever was one. No rational outcome is possible.

 

[TCABM]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175? …

Depends, but without seeing the details, nothing can be known.

What I do know is that for every hour flown, our 172 needs $30 set aside for overhaul and $25 set aside for routine maintenance (six 50/hr oil changes/year). That’s $55/hr base rate dry. Using the national average for 100LL if $6.51 and 8gph for burn ($52/hr), that’s $107/hr before fixed expenses.

If there’s a dry lease involved, the club may have to pay an hourly usage fee to the lessor, depending how the lease is structured. We haven’t even touched the discussion if the rates are Hobbs or Tach.

You don’t like flying clubs, so I don’t know why I bother responding except for the broader audience’s edification.

 

[EdFred]

Mixing fiscal responsibility and airplane flying in the same conversation - that is a paradox generator if there ever was one. No rational outcome is possible.

There are some small areas of the Venn diagram that it does. Our 8 hour trip to the cabin via automobile vs a 2 hour or less flight in the plane allows us to enjoy 2 full days up there every weekend we go without having to take PTO on Friday, or have to leave early on Sunday to be back. Not even taking into account the personal travel time saved, we come out well ahead.

60 gallons of AvGas vs 35 gallons of autogas we spent about $150 more in fuel, but the 16 hours of work we still get done (or at least paid for) on Friday easily outpaces that. And that's just trips to the cabin. That doesn't include the family trips, where 4 airline tickets will easily be more than fuel and parking in the plane. Even if I figure the all in every penny cost (mx, hangar, insurance, etc) we still come out better. But I don't figure that, because I don't figure that on road trips for the ground vehicles. It's gas and parking for that, so it's gas and parking for the plane as well.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

... for the broader audience’s edification.

I certainly feel edificated.

 

[EdFred]

I certainly feel edificated.

My wife always feels that way.

 

[billsgs126]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175? Before you say 'hangars' or somesuch hourly rates are only about the engine fund, maint, and gas. You can't pay for a hangar without a monthly dues because flying hours are variable while hangars are fixed... so that's not the reason.

Read my posts and look at the cash flow on dues alone. I don't think my last few clubs with over 100 people and 4-6 AC is rare. Heck the local club in the metro area has 6 planes at two fields. You can't do that with only 5 ppl per plane.

And the point is not about clubs vs owning. Its that clubs, for the average person, are not the deal people think they are.

Flying clubs are the vacation timeshares of the sky. It works for a very small minority of the members... they rest just get the annual maintenance fee and two weeks in Florida during the rainy season LOL

The first club I belonged to had a buy-in that covered one's portion of amortized costs. All fixed costs were paid by the monthly membership fee, and hourly costs were recovered through an hourly rate to reserve and use the equipment.

But, the mission, vision, values, and goals of the club must align with that of its membership. My clubs goal was to provide safe, affordable aircraft for primary flight training and for use by recreational pilots with budgetary constraints. "Pretty", "new", or "advanced" were not in the vocabulary. Keeping costs at $12 hour for an SGS 1-26, or $72 hour for a wet C150 were more important.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I certainly feel edificated.

Edificed? Edificationed? Edified?

 

[billsgs126]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175?

What I do know is that for every hour flown, our 172 needs $30 set aside for overhaul and $25 set aside for routine maintenance (six 50/hr oil changes/year). That’s $55/hr base rate dry. Using the national average for 100LL if $6.51 and 8gph for burn ($52/hr), that’s $107/hr before fixed expenses.

If there’s a dry lease involved, the club may have to pay an hourly usage fee to the lessor, depending how the lease is structured. We haven’t even touched the discussion if the rates are Hobbs or Tach.

You don’t like flying clubs, so I don’t know why I bother responding except for the broader audience’s edification.

Using my $72 hour C150 example in #97, if the base rate were $50 and Mogas figured at $3.50/ gal, 6 gph, that's $71.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Mixing fiscal responsibility and airplane flying in the same conversation - that is a paradox generator if there ever was one. No rational outcome is possible.

I don't fully agree (((***official motto of PoA***))).

Most of us allocate our earnings to 3 general purposes: needs, savings, and wants. After you meet your needs and save for the future, you can spend the remaining amount on wants. If you can find a flying model that fits your wants budget, that is fiscally responsible.

There are 3 basic flying models: rent, club, or own. Clubs require less financial commitment than owning, but more than renting. Clubs provide some of the benefits of ownership, but not all. For many people, they are a middle ground to balance cost and benefits, and thus a fiscally responsible choice.

I am firmly convinced that almost anyone can find a way to fly affordably and safely. For some people, that may be partnership in an ultralight, or renting a 150 once a month. For others it is sole ownership of a pressurized twin turboprop. For the rest, it is somewhere in between. Clubs are a great way to provide more choices to more people. I love to see them, and appreciate the people that put effort into establishing and running them.

 

[TCABM]

Using my $72 hour C150 example in #97, if the base rate were $50 and Mogas figured at $3.50/ gal, 6 gph, that's $71.

So, as I mentioned, it’s $55/hr just to fly the plane. Our assessment includes 20 hours of flight credit and the apportioned share if fixed expenses in an annual basis.

We have one member who’s dead set that we “charge” $130/hr for the plane.

Our guy that is down for a medical issue counters that he’s paying $2600 to listen to the other guy gripe.

Our guys flying a lot just chuckle and are grateful we have others to share the expense. For $5K/year, they’re getting 50hrs/year, a hangar, maintenance done, and occasional upgrades on a plane that’s insured for $105K with 200hrs on an OH’d engine.

 

[WDD]

I bought a skylane last year, and still pay $60 a month to stay in my club. Social gatherings, fly approaches with SP, get to participate with doing things for the club, access to CFIs for reviews, etc. So far it’s worth it.

 

[Jim K]

I bought a skylane last year, and still pay $60 a month to stay in my club. Social gatherings, fly approaches with SP, get to participate with doing things for the club, access to CFIs for reviews, etc. So far it’s worth it.

Yep; I've owned my plane for...5,6?...years now. I've been in a club as well the entire time. Plane's broke, in annual, not suitable for the mission....I have another option. I love to ***** about the 172, but it's been invaluable to me a number of times. $50/month...can't even feed my family at Mcdonalds for $50 any more.

 

[Salty]

...can't even feed my family at Mcdonalds for $50 any more.

You can't feed your family with Ramen for $50. lol

 

[Jim K]

You can't feed your family with Ramen for $50. lol

We'll make a pot of 7 packs of Ramen, add a carrot, some onion, a little garlic, and a can of chicken. Tasty, and feeds all of us for like $5.

There's a little tip for you @SkyChaser , although I'm guessing you already know the versatility of Ramen.

 

[iamtheari]

We'll make a pot of 7 packs of Ramen, add a carrot, some onion, a little garlic, and a can of chicken. Tasty, and feeds all of us for like $5.

There's a little tip for you @SkyChaser , although I'm guessing you already know the versatility of Ramen.

Ironically, our $100 hamburger is actually a ramen restaurant about 85 nm away.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

How can some clubs rent for < $100 wet but others are still at $175? Before you say 'hangars' or somesuch hourly rates are only about the engine fund, maint, and gas. You can't pay for a hangar without a monthly dues because flying hours are variable while hangars are fixed... so that's not the reason.

Sure you can. There are "clubs" of all shapes and sizes, and they are all run differently. If you charge enough per hour that you "profit" on the hourly rate, maybe you'll be able to pay for the hangar with the hourly rates even on a slow month. I don't think it's very smart or fair, but that doesn't mean that you can't, or that it isn't done.

And the point is not about clubs vs owning. Its that clubs, for the average person, are not the deal people think they are.

Then find a better club. I have had fantastic experiences with flying clubs.

Flying clubs are the vacation timeshares of the sky. It works for a very small minority of the members... they rest just get the annual maintenance fee and two weeks in Florida during the rainy season LOL

It worked well enough for the club I was more involved in that we only turned over 2-3 memberships per year out of a 30-member club.

I bought a skylane last year, and still pay $60 a month to stay in my club. Social gatherings, fly approaches with SP, get to participate with doing things for the club, access to CFIs for reviews, etc. So far it’s worth it.

Yep; I've owned my plane for...5,6?...years now. I've been in a club as well the entire time. Plane's broke, in annual, not suitable for the mission....I have another option. I love to ***** about the 172, but it's been invaluable to me a number of times. $50/month...can't even feed my family at Mcdonalds for $50 any more.

I stayed in the club I was in for the first 7 years I owned the Mooney. Dues were $170/mo but I was on the board of directors so I didn't have to pay the full rate. I figured the time I spent working on club stuff was still fun (hey, airplanes!) and was my way of giving something back to the club, because the club was a GREAT way to bridge from being a newish Private pilot to being an owner, and have a metric crapton of fun in the process. I flew club planes to ~35 states.

It was also nice to occasionally have a plane that was better for the mission than the Mooney. The R182 was great when I needed extra useful load or to operate from shorter/unimproved strips like when going to 6Y9 or the Washington Island Fish Boil.

Alas, when the kids started sucking up more time, I had to shed some of my other time commitments, and the club was one. I didn't even come close to using the planes enough to justify the dues, so I left. I do wish I could still go fly any of the club birds - DA40 was a hoot, R182 was versatile, and now the Archer has a panel full of all the Garmin toys I wish I had in the Mooney.

 

[SkyChaser]

We'll make a pot of 7 packs of Ramen, add a carrot, some onion, a little garlic, and a can of chicken. Tasty, and feeds all of us for like $5.

There's a little tip for you @SkyChaser , although I'm guessing you already know the versatility of Ramen.

A lot of the kiddos weren't fond of brothy "soups", so one of our favorite stirfries was ramen, chicken, and a bag of "asian medley" frozen veggies or cabbage with soy sauce. It tasted surprisingly good for how cheap of a meal it was. I think it usually came out to about $10 all told, and considering it was feeding 10 people, that was pretty darn good! Sometimes, my dad would pop some stove-top popcorn to go with it. Somehow, I still like ramen despite how many times a week I ate it in college. There's just something very satisfying about a hot, steaming bowl or mug of noodles and broth, especially once it cools down outside.

 

[Half Fast]

There are 3 basic flying models: rent, club, or own.

I think I'd also include "partnership." Might be a subcategory of "own" but it's worthy of consideration. Having a partner (or two) imposes fewer constraints than a club while having the advantage of sharing expenses.

A pilot I know at my home drome is in a partnership on a Mooney with a couple of other guys. He's the only one who flies any significant hours, though, so he almost has a personal plane for 1/3 the expense.

 

[Half Fast]

There's just something very satisfying about a hot, steaming bowl or mug of noodles and broth, especially once it cools down outside.

Maybe so, but mom and I are going to feed you a bit better than that this weekend!

 

[Half Fast]

I love owning my own plane, but I will say that in retrospect spending a year or two in a club first might have made things easier. Learning about maintenance, developing a network of A&Ps and CRSs and so forth, and just learning the ropes of plane ownership from a more experienced partner or two would probably have been helpful.

 

[Salty]

I love owning my own plane, but I will say that in retrospect spending a year or two in a club first might have made things easier. Learning about maintenance, developing a network of A&Ps and CRSs and so forth, and just learning the ropes of plane ownership from a more experienced partner or two would probably have been helpful.

Sure, but you still would have been unprepared for ownership. lol

 

[Jim K]

I love owning my own plane, but I will say that in retrospect spending a year or two in a club first might have made things easier. Learning about maintenance, developing a network of A&Ps and CRSs and so forth, and just learning the ropes of plane ownership from a more experienced partner or two would probably have been helpful.

My excellent mechanic, whom I brag about often, and who saw fit to sign off my engine overhaul...I first met him and started the relationship because he was working on the club plane. The club also hooked me up with my primary instructor. While a member, I met my cfii.

It was great networking for me, and I'm certain I wouldn't have ever become a pilot without that club. Both from the standpoint of costs as well as pointing me in the right direction. Aviation is not so easy to just jump into if you don't have a family member or friend to mentor you. I do think my eaa chapter could've filled that role, had I known about it.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I think I'd also include "partnership." Might be a subcategory of "own" but it's worthy of consideration.

Agreed, but I was trying to keep it pithy.

 

[rwellner98]

We'll make a pot of 7 packs of Ramen, add a carrot, some onion, a little garlic, and a can of chicken. Tasty, and feeds all of us for like $5.

There's a little tip for you @SkyChaser , although I'm guessing you already know the versatility of Ramen.

These are staples at my house for the past year or so. Combined cost is about $1.70 per serving. Great camping option with no refrigeration required and no compromise on flavor.

 

[Half Fast]

Agreed, but I was trying to keep it pithy.

Well, I wathn’t trying to pith on your potht.....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think I'd also include "partnership." Might be a subcategory of "own" but it's worthy of consideration. Having a partner (or two) imposes fewer constraints than a club while having the advantage of sharing expenses.

"Partnership" is merely one end of the "multiple ownership" spectrum. The line between them is not well defined.

When does a partnership become a club?
Is it when two partners becomes three? Or four? Or five? Or six?

I think we'd probably all call more than one plane a "club" but there's plenty of clubs that have one plane too.

 

[Pugs]

When does a partnership become a club?

In my ever-evolving opinion, it’s an equity vs. non-equity organizational structure. That being said, I’ve been in both equity and non-equity clubs and it’s just my current opinion that non-equity is a better structure for long-term clubs.

 

[GMascelli]

I'm late to this party but I thought I would share my club experience. I was introduced to a one plane club through my brides friend. We liked the setup 3 pilots including the owner, I would make it 4. The plane was well cared for and on a very strict maintenance routine. The owner, who never flew, took us on and we were excited to fly the Archer. My brides friend left the club when we signed on, she had discovered the world of meat bombs and rather jump out of planes then fly them.

We paid a monthly fee and then by the hour dry rate. The monthly fee was for a few hours, then the dry rate anything above that. Mary and I flew the heck out of that Archer and thought about offering to buy it. A few years into the club the owner took on another pilot, a friend from his work. The guy was a CFI so it was nice to have him available if needed. The only down side is he left the plane a mess every time he flew it. I always attended the owner assisted annuals and waxed the plane every year. Mary and got tired of cleaning up his mess and decided it was time to become owners. We left the club and purchased our first plane. The rest is history. The plane eventually was sold and now resides in the land down under sporting a new paint job and avionics.

 

[TCABM]

In my ever-evolving opinion, it’s an equity vs. non-equity organizational structure. That being said, I’ve been in both equity and non-equity clubs and it’s just my current opinion that non-equity is a better structure for long-term clubs.

Interesting, I’m curious why.

As an equity partner in a non-profit corp/club that’s been filing it’s 990 under our current EIN since 2007 (and existed for a decade or so previous to that), I’m probably biased the opposite, but we also have found it challenging to find a dry lease on an airworthy plane that was more affordable than financing it.

Setting aside the tax structure, I would think an equity club suitable for a small member base/smaller fleet size.

I will add the term ‘club’ has little appreciable definition outside the 501(c)(7) definition and associated constraints.