Flying a DME arc with a Garmin G5 HSI

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Blaze, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    Am I the only one who thinks that a major failure of the Garmin G5 HSI is that they only provide one knob to control two functions, forcing you to continually switch back and forth through the menu to select either the heading bug or the course selector. This is very distracting and labor intensive when flying a DME arc. To fly an arc where I have to continually move them both, it means constantly going into the menu to select which one the knob should move. In other words, move course selector, quickly go into the menu to select the heading bug, exit the menu, move heading bug, then back into the menu to select course selector, exit menu, move course selector, rinse and repeat about 20 times until the arc is complete. Is there a better way?
     
  2. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    Use the bearing pointers.
     
  3. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    I agree that is a better way, but is that the best way? I feel like I’m missing something with the operation of this instrument. It is new to me so I am still in the learning stages with it. But Using the bearing pointer takes me back about 20 years when I was learning ADF approaches. It makes me miss my old Century HSI. It was actually easier with 20 year old technology. Sorry I guess I’m just venting that I spent so much money on this G5 and it seems to have made some things more difficult unless I’m missing something.
     
  4. Jdm

    Jdm Pre-Flight

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    Yeah, bearing pointers, or gps... Modern jets do the same.
     
  5. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    You could just put your little airplane on the magenta line of whatever is displaying your GPS track. "Best" is in the eye of the beholder.
     
  6. Jdm

    Jdm Pre-Flight

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    Ha, I wanted to suggest that but decided against it. We call that “picture naving”. It might not be exactly legal but it works great:) I would keep a bearing pointer pulled up just to be on the safe side.
     
  7. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    If you have loaded the approach in your GPS, does it not actually use the CDI to provide you with course guidance around the arc, by changing the DTK a degree at a time? I know the 430W coupled to an Aspen will. It makes it really easy to fly an arc, and perfectly legit.

    Or, use the bearing pointer. That’s actually a better way than the “turn 10, twist 10” method anyway. The “turn 10, twist 10” method was really only developed as a hack for those who didn’t have a bearing pointer anyway.

    Actually, I no longer teach “turn 10, twist 10”. I just teach to watch the distance and turn more or less. “turn 10, twist 10” is needlessly complicated.

    It sounds like you’re trying to introduce complexity for no reason, when the new technology has made it easier.
     
  8. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    @Blaze, what kind of GPS are you using, if any?
     
  9. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    I’m using it with a Garmin 430W and it actually does a nice job on an arc. The auto pilot will even fly it flawlessly. The reason I’m asking the question is because I like to have a contingency plan in case I lose my GPS signal or if ATC assigns me an uncharted arc. If either of those things happen I will have to fly it the old fashioned way. I train the same way when it comes to holds too. I think we all take holds for granted because the GPS does it for us but what happens when you get assigned an uncharted hold? We better know how to do it manually since, at least on the Garmin 430, you can’t program in a hold manually. At least I don’t know how anyway. But back to the arc, I do have a 2nd com coupled to a CDI I could use probably more easily than continually switching between the heading bug and the course selector. That might be my best contingency plan.
     
  10. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    You have a real stand-alone DME in the stack? Otherwise, you can't fly an arc without GPS.
    Does that happen in real life?
    The newer boxes can do it. I don't know the 430 very well since it's a little bit before my time.
     
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  11. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Cleared for Takeoff

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    What is your contingency for a wing falling off? That has about the same chances of happening as both a GPS failure and getting an uncharted DME arc at the same time. And can ATC even do that? I can't think of any reason why they would.
     
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  12. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    yes I do

    I said one or the other. Not both at the same time. Am I going too fast for you? I can type a little slower.
     
  13. NordicDave

    NordicDave Cleared for Takeoff

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    Ouch!
     
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  14. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    GA is catching up (and in some cases has actually exceeded) the capability of highly automated business jets and airliners.

    In the two jets I fly, I rarely, if ever, touch the "course knobs." The HSI on the PFD generally gets its course information from the FMS. It's a borderline unusual event to need to manually set a course.

    The G5 works the same way. Generally, it will have course information fed to it from the Navigator (IFR GPS such as GTN 650/750) -- whether it's the FAC for an ILS or VOR approach, an RNAV approach, etc. If you're correctly utilizing the suite the way it's designed, you won't have much need of a dedicated course knob.

    As a result the second knob which you miss now would be largely left unused as we progress towards this more modern and elegant way of managing the aircraft's guidance.
     
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  15. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Cleared for Takeoff

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    Whatever, good luck in your future endeavors
     
  16. GMascelli

    GMascelli En-Route

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    http://gmflightlog.blogspot.com/2010/06/garmin-530-buttonology.html
     
  17. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    Point well taken. I think I have an ingrained mistrust for technology and have the attitude of not if it fails but when. I guess I need to develop a little more trust in it. It’s hard to do being raised on steam gauges. But I think it’s time for a change in mindset. I appreciate the comment and agree with you. Thank you.
     
  18. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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  19. Plano Pilot

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    Before GPS I would set the inbound course in the HSI and used the bearing pointer plus DME to stay on the arc. Just moved the heading bug as needed, it was easy.
     
  20. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And that's why I was wondering what @Blaze had hooked up to the G5.

    @Ryan F. you have a GNS in your Twinkie, right? And something like an Aspen or G5? Do you know how it handles DME arcs?

    I was merely wondering whether a 430W/G5 combo could be set up to have the course pointer change during the DME arc automatically.
     
  21. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    I have the Garmin 430W driving the G5. I like the bearing pointer idea. I’ve recently seen you tube videos on it and plan on trying it myself in real life.
     
  22. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

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    Uncharted DME arcs don't exist in real life. Hence one of the reasons they figured it was silly to keep forcing them on IFR checkrides. Also, it is perfectly legal to fly a DME arc on the magenta line - you just have to monitor the underlying VOR. Sure, you can use the bearing pointer on the G5, but that's really just a mental exercise. In real life, probably 95% of folks who have GPS aren't going to have DME if they lose GPS, so you're going to divert somewhere with a non-arc approach, or get vectors to final.
     
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  23. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    I have a G5 (ADI only) and GTN 650. But I've flown the G5 "dual combo" with GTN Navigators. Fantastic setup, by the way.

    You might be surprised to know that even old school manual CDIs handle arcs the "modern" way. I still have dual King (!) CDIs in my TwinCo -- I've had the G5 HSI scheduled for installation three times now, and something always comes up, most recently this darned virus. Flying a charted DME arc means simply keeping the CDI centered. It's actually just as easy to use the GTN's "default nav" display with a XTRK field enabled. And if I use NAV mode on my autopilot (which is not GPSS enabled yet, not until the G5 HSI is added) it'll even fly it, fairly precisely.

    So yes, the G5 works the same way. A DME arc becomes nothing more or less exotic than a curved course to fly.
     
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  24. Jdm

    Jdm Pre-Flight

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    I had this happen once. One time in 6,700 hrs of flying. Of course we screwed it up! The screw up was mostly due to a horrible ATC clearance that got figured out at the last minute. We had to get the controller to repeat it twice because it made zero sense in the 1st place. We were flying a very well equipped jet into a northern airport with winter wx. Two typed pilots with tons of training. By the time we processed the controllers nonsense and jammed it in the box we were already blowing threw the arc. Winds were straight down the runway with no approach in that direction. Wind was about 70 kts at 5,000’ while trying to join the arc to an ILS for a circling approach. The approach was flown partially configured per our procedure. That, plus the 50 kts of tailwind on final made this a super fast approach. GS on final was almost 200 kts prior to breaking off for the circle portion.

    Unless you plan on dealing with this sort of crap I doubt you’ll ever have to fly an uncharted arc. Especially now that RF approaches are becoming more common.
     
  25. Skymac

    Skymac Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hang a 90 at the arc then turn it to the inbound course and just fly the DME value in and out.
     
  26. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    You all have made some really good points. I guess I have two major take-aways from this discussion. 1) It’s probably never going to happen so why put so much effort into that kind of contingency. Vectors would be more likely in the event of a failure. And I could always ask for a vector if not given one. Problem solved. 2) You guys have caused me to give a hard look at bearing pointers if for nothing else but for better SA. I didn't even have them enabled on my G5 until this weekend. I went and flew a DME arc with both the GPS and the VLOC pointers enabled and what a difference. The controller cleared me direct to the IAF. When I enable the approach it wanted to intercept the leg leading to the IAF. Since the next waypoint was the IAF I just put the AP into heading mode and set the heading bug to center the bearing pointer and that took me directly there. I know I could have gone to the 430 and hit the direct button and have it take me there too. But at this point I was experimenting with my new toy. And thanks to you guys I’ve realized more options with it. With the G5/430/Century II combo I feel like I’m cheating on these approaches!
     
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  27. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Remind me what a bearing pointer is on the G5? I've had it installed for over 6 months but haven't done any IFR training with it yet....and the way things are going, may never get back to working on the iFR. (*sigh*)
     
  28. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    See the blue arrow pointing to 345deg?
    (there's another one but it's hard to see because it's hiding under the magenta arrow)
    [​IMG]
     
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  29. Blaze

    Blaze Filing Flight Plan

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    5B223EF2-21FA-444F-B024-11A8CF01FD18.jpeg
    I don’t know if you’re familiar with an ADF or not but the bearing pointer is similar to that. It is a pointer that just always points in the direction of the VOR if it’s a VLOC pointer or in the direction of your next waypoint if it is the GPS pointer ( you can have them both displayed at the same time). So in other words, if the VOR on you GPS is tuned to a VOR that is in range, the VLOC bearing pointer will point to it. If it’s in front of you it points up, or down if it’s behind you and so on. On the attached screen shot you can see that if the plane was turned to a heading of 135, it would move the bearing pointer to the straight up position and the waypoint would be directly in front of you. In a no wind situation, that would take you directly to the waypoint.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  30. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    ah....my G5 replaced the AI, don’t have GPS and don’t have a HSI. Maybe someday.
     
  31. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Great explanation, thanks. My ADF still works, too.
     
  32. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    It's actually more akin to an RMI, which is also similar to an ADF except that the compass card moves.
     
  33. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ah, cool.

    What I'm still wondering is, if you had a G5 HSI, would the bearing pointer auto-slew continuously throughout the DME arc? Because, y'know, that'd be pretty cool.
     
  34. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I believe, you'd keep the bearing pointer pointing directly left or right, depending on the direction of the arc.
     
  35. Groundpounder

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    I found an approach with a DME arc not that far away from me. If the weather is nice later this week, I may go shoot it and see how well it works with a 530/G5 HSI combo.
     
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  36. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Your question has an answer but I wonder if there still isn't some confusion here. The CDI on the HSI itself continually orients to the course of the arc. If you set up a bearing pointer to point at a waypoint (such as the VOR in question for the DME arc), that, too, will continually point at the VOR, but that's nothing special, that's just how bearing pointers work.

    The idea here is that the GNS or GTN creates an electronic course (curved of course) and the G5's HSI will continually adjust the course as you progress along the arc, and show deviations left or right of course.
     
  37. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sorry - I meant course pointer, not bearing pointer. The arrow part of the CDI on an HSI... I understand the needle stays centered, but does the pointer auto-slew throughout the arc as well? And if so, presumably it's pointing along the currently-desired course and NOT pointed at the VOR...

    If it does auto-slew to the currently-desired course... What happens when it's time to turn inbound? Does it just pop to the inbound course at the start of the turn and then show the needle centering throughout the turn?
     
  38. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I remember getting an uncharted arc once, in VFR weather going into Grand Cayman. ATC did not have radar so it was for separation. ATC told us to intercept the, I believe 20nm arc, we were coming from the north. They asked us to report intercepting the arc plus later on passing various radials. We were landing to the east.
     
  39. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Yes.

    Yes. With turn anticipation, too.
     
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  40. smv

    smv Line Up and Wait

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    No...? :p
     
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