Florida Pilot having a bad day.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by wilkersk, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Richman67

    Richman67 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    84
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richman67
    Interesting perspective from someone close the process.

    There was an episode with a Cirrus (I believe the original post was over on the COPA forum) who's pilot was exonerated from a TFR bust WITHOUT talking to Flight Service, and his lawyer went further to get a letter of interpretation from the Feds about the equivalency of a phone briefing from FSS vs an online briefing. That letter is out there if you google search it, and I think there was even an AOPA article about it. Some see it as rock solid you are NOT required to call Flight Service prior to flying, others see it as a "squishy" answer at best.

    After reading about it, I asked the Feds at OSH last year about this, and NOT one would commit to an answer, as nice as they were about it.

    Problem is that there is going to be a fundamental change with ATC that will further reduce Flight Service to irrelevancy. The FAA and NATCO have reached an agreement that will permit the publishing of all facilities phone numbers for clearance delivery/IFR release purposes (in the Chart Supplement). Airports under approach control airspace will have numbers that go to that facilities flight data position, and those outside will be routed to the overlying ARTCC data position. What this means is that without the need to contact Flight Service for clearances, you are left with a program that exists solely to provide voice briefings and enroute services, both of which are already rapidly declining due to online resources and ADS-B.

    As the remaining IFR clearances move to an ATC function, and without the NEED to have a touch point with Flight Service for clearances, the number of contacts will continue to fall away, and you will be left with a program that has to justify it's costs for a VERY low number of contacts (and don't forget...they eliminated the Flight Watch position).

    Now I DO call Flight Service to update any TFRs ( I also make sure I select "update adverse conditions via email" option when I do the web brief, which I do every time), and I agree it is very cheap insurance, but my responses from them is mixed at best. When I call, I try to emphasize that I want an abbreviated briefing, but it takes me time to recite information regarding my flight, then they have to look, and as you point out, they always have to provide adverse conditions AND most usually always review NOTAMS as well. It is rarely a 2 minute process...more like 5 at a minimum. Some briefers sound annoyed that I am calling at all. OTOH, some realize that I have already done a briefing (my caller ID should pull my file up, and some have called me by name when they pick up) have pulled up that information to provide what I am actually calling about and make the process as painless as possible. Pretty inconsistent, as far as I can tell.

    Richman
     
  2. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,271
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RoscoeT
    Don't start feeling all bolstered up over 'likes'. Close to half the country voted for the clown mostly due to tribal party allegiance, so any denigrating joke even when folks know it's a joke will not be liked by about half the folks out there. Then of those half, a few will click 'like'. So I assume you either like the guy or have zero sense of humor. I'm more sure of the latter.
     
  3. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    447
    Location:
    Panama City, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    You won't address the question and just keep changing your position and subject.

    Got it.
     
  4. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    I’ll leave out the politics....

    The only reason to mention the likes is to disprove the 0.01% comment.
     
  5. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    462
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Very familiar with that interpretation (attached, below) from June of 2017, and I reference it often. I even use it in RTs. As is sometimes typical of the Chief Counsel, they give an answer that a layperson might read one way, whereas a pilot may (should) read differently.

    The real nuts and bolts of the interpretation letter lay a strong foundation for the need to call. The following excerpt is from the fourth paragraph:

    "Section 91.103 does not dictate the methods one must use to comply with the requirements of the section. A PIC's failure to contact LMFS prior to a flight would not be a per se violation of 91.103. Similarly, a PIC's reliance on only an EFB would not be a per se violation of 91.103. We note, however that there may be limitations and quality assurance issues in connection with the information available through certain EFB products that may affect compliance with 91.103 and necessitate further information gathering regarding the flight."

    If you launch with nothing but a Foreflight briefing and don't wander into a TFR, you're completely legal. Same brief but you DO wander into a TFR, the first question will be, "Why didn't you call?"

    ... because in the eyes of the FAA, calling is the highest and most direct way of getting the information. There are no internet connection problems, app issues, iOS/Android software update issues, misinterpretation errors, and so on.

    So, always call.

    They like the Chief Counsel to be the voice on those matters.

    I hear you. My longest call, including the "Briefer" and state voice commands, has been 2:36, when there are no TFRs to be reported, but that's just my experience. And they've gotten a lot better, at least in my opinion, about keeping it short when asking for an abbreviated briefing. In years past it was very hard to get off the phone with FSS. Regardless, if we want to simply get TFRs, we should be able to get them without an extra delay. Otherwise, it's a disincentive to call in some cases.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,697
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Am I the only one who goes flying with no course, no destination, just to aimlessly fly around enjoying the feeling of flying and sightseeing?
     
  7. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Airlines never call, and nobody says boo about it. I’m sure if there was a requirement that would have been addressed long ago. Of course it’s a bit more complicated as airlines have certain weather products approved, but that sort of illustrates my point.
     
  8. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Airlines are also on IFR flight plans with a clearance. So if there's a TFR it's already coordinated, or the airline could have a delay possibly.
     
  9. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,697
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    You’re original question:
    “And THIS is "another reason GA is dying"??? Really? People looking to get their pilots license are saying "No, there might be one of those TFR's and I won't be able to go fly. So why bother?" “
    I answered this, in summary, yes.
    If I was thinking of becoming a pilot and reading the news that a F16 was used to force a plane to land because it violated an airspace, this would definitely cause me to rethink that decision.

    In general I don’t think any of the negative press is good for GA...
    Got it?
     
  10. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    That’s true, but we are still approved to cancel for uncontrolled fields and depart with a 50 mile pick up.
     
  11. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    9,999
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    I do that quite a bit. I also tend to wander around and off my course when I am on a cross country to somewhere specific unless pressed for time.
     
    Paulie likes this.
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    IF that's in your airline's Op Specs I believe right?
     
  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    IOW you get lost a lot. :cheerswine:
     
  14. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    9,999
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Lost in the moment.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  15. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    It’s in our manual for certain. Actually it’s in every carriers manual that I know of. Have flown for several, and heard other carriers cancel so I’m sure it’s quite common.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  16. wilkersk

    wilkersk Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,043
    Location:
    Puget Sound
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KennyW
    Interesting, it references AC 00-63A. That AC was revised by "Change 1", dated 1/6/2017. Its a substantial change. I wonder why they didn't cancel and issue AC 00-63B?

    The way I understand it, once SWIM is fully implemented, the need to call an FSS will be all but obsolete. Till then, its a patchwork system at best. But hey, we're making progress, right?

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_00-63A_CHG_1.pdf
     
  17. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Is that what's referred to as a senior moment? ;)
     
  18. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    9,999
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Old dog w/o new tricks
    With which you are probably quite familiar.
     
    timwinters likes this.
  19. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    447
    Location:
    Panama City, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    Yep. Got it. Making yourself aware of TFR's along your route of flight is too much trouble.

    And rather than being forced to wear a seat belt when driving a car is too much government intrusion, you don't drive.

    One less pilot is not going to hurt GA one little bit.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  20. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Uh uh now, we're talking about you, not me. :fingerwag:
     
  21. wilkersk

    wilkersk Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,043
    Location:
    Puget Sound
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KennyW
    I also noticed Foreflight's disclaimer on TFR data:

     
  22. yetti

    yetti Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    499
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Yetti
    This does not work either. There were lots of FAA notes about not flying drone during the Houston flooding. A very large super secret TFR was put up over the Houston area for several days. On of the Houston Pilots posted it on Facebook. A drone operator posted a video about the flooding. He had checked TRF.gov and all the online sources and all the NOTAMs. I called the briefer to find the number of the TFR. The briefer could not find it. I finally found it by looking at the FAA listing of TFRs an told the briefer about it. Then let the drone pilot know to take down his video. The FAA could do a much better job if they would use 20th century tools to publish FAA.
     
  23. Richman67

    Richman67 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    84
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richman67
    But we're not talking about JUST GP, Foreflight or other third party sources/websites.

    We're also talking about sources that are DIRECTLY controlled by the FAA, that is the FAA TFR site, but more relevantly, the 1-800-WX-BRIEF site itself (which, technically, is a third party source). With those two sources, there should be zero "limitations and quality assurance issues in connection with the information".

    If I check the Leidos site right before I launch, that information should be identical to that received from a voice brief. If it is not, then there is a fundamental problem with the way the information system works.

    Ultimately, Flight Service is going to go away. Maybe not now, or a year from now, but certainly in the medium term. With the transfer of clearances/releases at uncontrolled fields to the relevant approach/center facilities, there will be virtually nothing for Flight Service to do. I'm not advocating for that, but you'll have an entire expensive infrastructure in place for a system that is no longer relevant. It would be trivial (from a technical perspective) to add a "airborne flight information" position to most ARTCC facilities to handle airborne information requests (weather updates, filing flight plans, etc). Flight Service no longer really provides in person briefs, DF steers, airport area advisories, Flight Watch, or weather observations. All they really do now are clearances, voice briefs and en-route information (minus flight watch). With clearances going away, you're left with a very expensive way for someone to get a voice briefing or information that most ATC facilities can also provide.

    That is currently only tangential to the TFR drama, but will ultimately become very relevant on this particular issue in the future.

    Richman
     
  24. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    462
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Yeah, the FAA thought of that. This appears on the bottom of every single page on tfr.faa.gov:

    [​IMG]

    Further, scroll down a bit on this page: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ntap/foreword.html

    You'll see text that looks a lot like this...

    [​IMG]
    In all fairness, the FAA does say to call 800-WX-BRIEF... a lot. They never say go to 800wxbrief.com, or to use any other source. They only recommend speaking to a briefer. I was reminded of this at a recent meeting involving the push to issue an InFO. "We already tell pilots to call Flight Service" was a statement I heard more than once.

    As for the system being broken or, at best, less than ideal, I won't argue that point, but in the meantime, this is the best way to avoid busting a TFR.
     
  25. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,396
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kent
    What "FAA listing of TFRs" did you find this "super secret" TFR in?
     
  26. ripnet

    ripnet Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Binghamton, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ripnet
     
  27. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    462
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Regarding the question about the 1800wxbrief.com website, there's no straightforward way for me to address that... keep in mind I'm just a pilot and volunteer anyway. The simplest response I can provide is that from an enforcement perspective you can't go wrong by calling.
     
  28. AKBill

    AKBill Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,538
    Location:
    Juneau, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKBill
    Requiring violation of TFR, I think one of my former Bosses would say "well you have to be tough when your stupid". No real excuse, "if you can't do the time don't do the crime"... :lol::lol:

    Really, to bad the guy didn't check for NOTAMS knowing Trump was in the area. Bet he just gets his hand slapped..
     
  29. yetti

    yetti Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    499
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Yetti
    I believe it was this site https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/

    I too find it incredible that whatever the "official" source that the briefers have is not possible to be made reliably and accurately via the internet. I would think the internet is past the fad phase. Most systems and processes that you want to be reliable remove the human factor from the chain.
     
  30. StevieTimes

    StevieTimes Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    678
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    StevieTimes
    When I watch movies, spaceships are always talking to the right people on the proper frequency.

    I would think maybe this would be a future ADS-B thing. I can see the controller looking at their screen and seeing a slow plane flying towards the TFR. They click the plane, choose "contact", and say "Unidentified space craft, you are about to enter a TFR, please turn around immediately, or if you prefer, state your destination and prepare for vectors."

    You (and I mean YOU, not like, generic somebody) would answer, and only the controller would hear you, because they opened a private chat with you. Why do we have frequencies? I could just choose "GROUND" on my radio, then I cycle through the options, like "TOWER", "APPROACH/DEPARTURE", "CENTER", etc. Why do I care what frequency that is? My plane knows full well where we are.

    In other words, pretend we're in flight simulator, because we can be. Let technology manage the specifics, let us focus on flying.

    The future, man...
     
    SaltH2OHokie, Zeldman and Justin M like this.
  31. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,220
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Any of those incursions involve Stadium TFRs?
     
  32. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    462
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    I don't know. I have only been been personally involved with VIP TFRs. But, I don't get to see the big picture.
     
  33. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    778
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Great info, great post. As an inexperienced student pilot (in Norway, but you never know...might fly in the US on vacation, etc. and it is probably similar here) you mention that they can change "last minute" so I was even seeing a possible problem after following your advice. you check with FSS and get the info, take off 30 minutes later, and maybe the flight takes a while until you are near it. Where would you pick up the updates (if any) while flying?

    Sorry if this is very basic, but I am a little unsure.

    Seems like with todays technology, even though possible, it's not well coordinated. A student could be forgiven for even wondering why if your ground track shows you heading towards a restricted, or prohibited airspace you might get a warning through radio "you are now heading directly for a prohibited airspace 10 NM direct on current track" or just some kind of warning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  34. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    462
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    LongRoadBob, that's a good question and I'm afraid the answer isn't very satisfying (but hopefully a little bit encouraging.) Remember, I'm just the messenger, so while all of the ideas and reactions posted on this thread are completely valid, I can't do anything with them. I'm just sharing how the system works today, how one can best make themselves knowledgeable about the location and status of TFRs, and best protect themselves against possible enforcement actions.

    Generally speaking if you call for a TFR briefing within 30 minutes of departure, it will be quite rare to run into a situation in which the boundaries of the TFR, active times, etc. change while you'e enroute. The key is the call shortly before departure. If you checked TFRs the night before (or even called FSS the night before), take off the next day (without the aforementioned before-departure call) and launch into a TFR whose boundaries and/or active times changed, your actions will not be viewed favorably. Using a defense of "but I called... 12 hours prior" won't get you anywhere.

    If you do everything by the book, call for the TFR briefing just prior to departure, and end up penetrating a TFR whose boundaries and/or active times changed from the time you called 'til the time you penetrated it, you may still hear from the FAA, and definitely will if it's a POTUS TFR. But -- I can only tell you unofficially of course, as a volunteer -- you won't be pursued for an enforcement action under those circumstances. There may still be an investigation, but it would be a stretch to find fault with the pilot.

    There's nothing wrong with checking in with FSS enroute and asking for TFR updates. It would be nice if we could get them reliably from ATC, but there are too many gaps and inconsistencies there, unfortunately. Sometimes ATC is on top of it, sometimes they're not.

    Hope this helps in case you ever fly here!
     
    Hippike and LongRoadBob like this.
  35. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    6,958
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    As long as the FAA insists on using a format for Notams and briefings from 100 years ago when telexing each character costs a dollar then we will continue having problems like this. It's time to lose (loose for those who don't know the difference) the abbreviations and spell things out. Important stuff, type, location, time and duration first, then all the other lawyer crap last. Simplify it, make it readable and these problems will diminish. Put a graphic in the briefings showing locations on charts. This shouldn't be difficult. The problem with bureaucracies is they keep doing things one way because that is always the way it's done, rather than doing what makes sense.
     
  36. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    778
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Thanks for the reply. So it seems one just has to do due diligence. As you say, check close to departure time.

    Good to know.
     
  37. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,230
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I think the better question is when did it become OK to even have TFR's. That patriot act BS during the Bush admin ruined our country...
     
    tawood likes this.
  38. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,635
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    There were presidential prohibited areas (other than the WH) long before the Patriot Act. Not exactly a TFR, but same concept. The area would actually get larger if the POTUS was at the locale, and diminish in size when he wasn’t. Kennebunkport Maine comes to mind.
     
  39. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I remember when Bob Dole was campaigning in Panama City FL. Tower asked if we could depart earlier than scheduled departure as Dole was on his way back to the airport and the airspace would be closed down for him to depart. We got out early and on our way but another of our flights inbound was vectored away until Dole was out of the area. And this was scheduled airline service!
     
  40. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,864
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoCal RV Flyer
    A TFR is useless if it's not enforced and there are no consequences for violating it. This pilot was made an example for the rest of us. Sucks to be him.

    I'm more curious about how an F-16 "intercepts" a Cessna 150 or something that's doing a mind-bending 100 knots. Strafe across the nose? Pull alongside in crazy high alpha flight? Circle around the offender? It'd be great if someone could chime in who knows exactly how this goes down.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.