Florida Pilot having a bad day.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by wilkersk, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    At least...maybe the guy should go to prison?
    He violated airspace by 1 mile, it’s like going 62 in a 60mph speed zone, but getting pulled over by a tank. Since when did it become ok to use military power to control the citizens as normal operating procedure?
    The appropriate response would be call on guard and warn him off.
    Just another reason GA is dying...
     
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  2. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think there's a little more to it than that.

    For example, was the plane skirting the TFR and happened to get just get inside the TFR. Or was heading directly for the center of the TFR? Do you know that they didn't try to call on guard?

    Based on one report "The pilot of the private plane was unaware of the airspace restriction" it would appear that the pilot did not check the TFR's before launching. And it's not like presidential TFR's are a rarely used, surprise event.

    And THIS is "another reason GA is dying"??? Really? People looking to get their pilots license are saying "No, there might be one of those TFR's and I won't be able to go fly. So why bother?" o_O
     
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  3. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    You do realize that it's the FAA who hands out both violations and penalties? Not "law enforcement"? And that it's military aircraft that do the escorting because they are fast and available, not law enforcement?

    Just thought you might want to vent some anger on the actual groups involved in this event . . . .

    P.S.--the FAA is answerable to Congress. Where you live is covered by two Senators and one Representative, if yiu want to complain.
     
  4. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Tight regulations and expense are two reasons why GA is having problems. So yes, he's correct IMO.

    As for the TFRs, they are annoying and silly. The chance that a GA plane can or will cause harm to one of our "betters" is very slim. Its security theater.
     
  5. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    I agree with the prior comment about the ground track being a determining factor.

    If the incident pilot was 1 mile in and headed further in, scramble alert one!

    If he was more or less tangent to the TFR but slipped in a bit, maybe not so big a deal.

    Was he talking to anyone? A reminder and a phone number to call would have kept the poor guy out of the news.
     
  6. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Welll there was this incident referred to as 9/11 see. And the terrorists had hijacked an airliner and were headed for DC but the passengers overwhelmed the hijackers and, sadly, the jet crashed in PA, killing everyone. Regardless of what you think of Trump, he is the President and a target, same as all previous Presidents.

    And yes, I agree a lot of TFRs are ridiculous and could be changed.
     
  7. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Saying that since a TFR is a "regulation" and because of the "tighter regulations" GA is having a problem is comparing apples to asphalt. There have ALWAYS been areas where we can't fly. Saying that GA is experiencing problems because of TFR's is just ridiculous.

    You want to say that these presidential TFR's are stupid and don't accomplish anything worthwhile and I'll be the first to stand beside you and agree. But to say that the lower number of private pilots or the decrease in the number of GA aircraft sales is down because of TFR's makes no sense at all.
     
  8. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    The real problem is we have too many living Presidents. We're at a record high (7)

    We can reduce these TFR's by euthanizing former Presidents the day their successor is inaugurated. Net effect is an 86% reduction in Presidential TFR sources and $3.4 million dollars in savings to the budget.

    Edit: There are a record SEVEN Vice Presidents too. They get TFR's and $260k per year each too!

    We've got to trim the fat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  9. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don't forget the attack on the White House with a Cessna 150, and the attack on the Bank of America Tower in Tampa with a 172! In the second case, it was only the flight restrictions and the intercept by the Coast Guard that prevented much worse consequences.

    On the other hand, you gotta be a dumb **** to not know about the TFR.
     
  10. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    I'm curious what if any implications does that have in relation to the Posse Comitatus Act. Is using military jets and personnel to help enforce laws and regulations a violation of that act? If not, why?
     
  11. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    As to GPS error not being an excuse, I have a question. Which is typically more accurate, GPS or ATC radar? Isn't it possible that the error was with the radar that determined he violated the TFR and he actually did not? I agree that as a pilot I would add a margin to the TFR and stay outside of it to avoid any possibility of a violation. That seems more than prudent. But if the law is the line is the limit and the method of measuring that line by the authorities is flawed, then is it just to go after someone who bumps the line?
     
  12. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nah very doubtful the radar is inaccurate. No doubt the plane was being track and didn't alter course. I think I read the F16s were airborne already so they got there quick. The plane penetrated the TFR so no excuse. Like you said I would give myself a bit of buffer, just like one would avoiding Class B airspace.
     
  13. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    I have no problem with the inner ring, but 30 mile outer ring?!

    If you talk to some pilots who fly out of KLNA I bet you get a different opinion.
     
  14. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Thank Odin we have expensive and powerful military jets with guided missiles and guns to protect the President from some poor schlub out for a New Year's Eve pleasure flight. Your tax dollars at work. Yippie.
     
  15. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    I disagree because TFRs are making ME rethink my flying hobby. Just one more BS hassle to slightly tip the scales against my decision to continue flying. The scale hasn’t tipped “against” yet but it’s close.
     
  16. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    We're all looking at this the wrong way.

    We need to thank the incident pilot for volunteering to be a clay pigeon for our guys to practice on. Talk about shooting a fish in a barrel.
     
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  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    I don't think that's the right attitude with flying.. if we start putting self imposed "buffer zones" that go beyond published rules around different areas of aviation that could lead to poor ADM down the road. Maybe a 1 mile bust on a TFR on a severe clear day seems aggressive, but it's good to habitualize playing by the rules

    Someone above posted "the buffer zone is whatever additional you give around the TFR" - that's the right attitude with flying. Just like you shouldn't get used to making long low slow approaches dragging it in at 58 knots. Sure on a clear day at your home field it may not be an issue, but you don't want to habitualize sloppy flying

    *third person "you" - not personal "you" @teejayevans
     
  18. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    I generally agree with you there, no one seems to really be making a concerted effort to actually bring GA back, not as long as a 100 knot s***box costs half a mil new.. (oh but it has a G1000!! /s) sure there are used planes on the market for $50K-$60K, but ownership is a whole other hassle, and these $50K planes might be good enough for us diehards, but in the modern era stepping into a 1960s jalopy is not really going to bring anyone new into flying

    I don't really think TFRs, airspaces rules, and other general "rules of the road" that we all learned in our PPL days are the straw on the camel's back though, those have always been around
     
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  19. donjohnston

    donjohnston Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So now you're saying that TFR's have nothing to do with the death of GA? And that the problem is the size of the TFR is a problem? :rolleyes:
     
  20. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    It’s really not that hard to not bust a TFR like this. It’s been all over news that Trump was going to be in Florida and he goes like every week. There’s no excuse.
     
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  21. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A bit more on this.

    We have a lot of airspace incursion violations in the northeast, especially VIP TFRs. I work with the FAA when the violation falls under the Compliance Philosophy and the investigating inspector chooses to pass the incident off to the applicable FSDO's FPM. When the pilot shows up to the meeting with a compliant attitude the FPM may choose to assign RT (Remedial Training). RT is neither an enforcement or administrative action, so nothing ever appears on the pilot's record -- that's a good thing.

    My lead rep and I conduct RTs and most of them are TFR-related. Because this is such a big issue at present it's a FAASTeam area of emphasis. We have conducted safety seminars on this topic and I co-wrote a "decoder" document for the Bedminster TFR in mid-2017. We deal with this topic weekly if not daily, with the involvement of the FSDO on a regular basis.

    The problem we see time and time again in these RTs is basic lack of awareness of the TFR on the part of the pilot. The two most common problems are:
    1. No briefing, no awareness of the TFR.
    2. An electronic self-briefing only, which for one reason or another ends up incomplete or misinterpreted.
    It's fairly uncommon to run across an incursion which resulted from a true navigational error. In the vast majority of the cases, the pilot was unaware of the TFR, or believed it to be inactive (or in a different place.) To be fair to the incident pilots, some of the POTUS TFRs have been quite complex, with last-minute changes to dates/times and locations. That adds to the challenge of staying up to date.

    We have identified, and heavily recommend, one virtually sure-fire solution to avoid an inadvertent TFR incursion:

    Call Flight Service within 30 minutes of your departure time.

    That is to say, don't use tfr.faa.gov; don't use Foreflight/WingX/Garmin Pilot/etc.; don't use your in-panel avionics which receive TFR alerts via ADS-B In; call Flight Service. Further, call as close to your departure time as possible to get the latest possible information.

    If one calls and ask for an abbreviated briefing, TFRs and adverse conditions only (Leidos is required to always provide adverse conditions), the typical length of call is under two minutes. I tend to call right after I pull my plane out of the hangar and am doing a leisurely walk-around. I call every single time I fly, even if it's just for a flight in the pattern, even if I've called two hours prior for an earlier flight. It's the cheapest insurance imaginable.

    This is an article which appeared on my facebook page, GA Safety Briefing:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/ga-safety-briefing/i-flew-into-a-presidential-tfr/338556203223703/

    It's a great analysis of what went wrong for a pilot who thought he could trust his EFB weather briefing to keep him appraised of TFRs. He's a convert for the "always call FSS" philosophy. Incidentally the FAA picked up and shared this article along with a number of FSDO's FAASTeam pages. The pilot involved has been asked to speak at a number of clubs and safety seminars. It's a pretty interesting read, and a good example of why it's so important to call rather than trust a self-briefing, when it comes to TFR incursions.

    Good luck to all!
     
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  22. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Ryan, you're just the guy I need to talk to about a TFR situation I had a year ago or so. My girlfriend and I were flying to a "somewhat" local airport (about 70nm), to visit a casino that was nearby. The airport also serves a college town so they occasionally get stadium TFRs. I preflighted my plane, then right before take-off (like 10 minutes before) called Flight Service, and got a briefing. No TFR was mentioned. As we get close to the airport, I notice on Foreflight the TFR circle around the stadium that covered the airport. I called FSS from the air to file a flight plan...the FSS states that they don't see a TFR, and they said something about (it was a year ago, so I'm not sure I'm remembering it right) that if the stadium TFR has already started, its harder to find (?). Foreflight said the TFR was expected to end at like 9:30 pm local, and I was calling the FSS from the air at like 9:25 pm, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it. I then called the local radar services tower to get a transponder code, and they also said they didn't see a TFR (but they admitted that they knew a football game was scheduled earlier in the day). While I was circling around doing this, at just about the time I called the tower, the TFR ended at 9:30 and disappeared from Foreflight, but I kept the flight following /transponder code until landing just to be on the safe side....so what the heck happened here?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  23. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Leidos will not give you stadium TFRs as they are covered under this blanket NOTAM, which is FDC 7/4319:

    http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_7_4319.html

    Although it stinks, the burden is on you to figure out where the stadiums are, if there's a game or race that day, and so on. Fortunately, Foreflight and Garmin Pilot (and possibly other EFB software app providers) will depict these based on known sports schedules. If you rely on this, it's still not enough to get you off the hook if there's an error by the provider in transcription, etc., so your safest bet is to back this up with your own research (think rain delays for races and games, etc.)

    Your chance of getting violated for skating into these is variable, maybe 50/50 depending on how close you get to the stadium both laterally and vertically.
     
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  24. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    @Ryan F.
    Excellent article, thank you for that. I'll make copies for any students I may have, and others that are interested. Is there anything in the works of trying to improve notification to pilots thru electronic means, like Foreflight etc, that would improve or eliminate a phone call to WX Brief?
     
  25. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Wow, I had no idea. Its like a street, where the speed limit changes, without posting the limit, and its up to you to figure out the limit....
    This is what I mean, when I said that TFRs could make me leave GA. I'll keep flying, but if I ever violate one of these, I'll just hand them my license. Complete BS.
     
  26. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    Unreasonable government regulations.
    Some are very reasonable, like requiring transponders or radios in controlled airspace.
    Some are not...blocking off 8000+ cubic miles of airspace is one of those.
    Take this to the extreme, if 30nm is safer, why not make it 300nm, because 300 would be safer.
     
  27. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    im sorry, in this day and age it is a total lack of effort on the FAA's part not to have a electronic system in place to not only uplink them to adsb, but a real time link to tfr.faa.gov and open source so EFB makers have access to them. the flying community should not have to make phone calls to take a local flight because the FAA is not tech savy. what should a pilot do when he is on a 3hr cross country and a TFR pops up? the FAA really needs to move into 2001at least.
     
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  28. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    OK, not ragging on you personally. But...

    it's been this way for 16 years. Assuming you have been an active pilot all that time, you have received eightish flight reviews plus whatever other instruction, communications, contact you have had with the FAA and it's reps., and hundreds? of briefings. And, yet, somehow the fact that the FAA will not tell you about stadium TFRs has yet to filter down. Think about it.

    We have a urine poor, 100% deficient, communication system. It's just not working. The fact that a pilot can fly for 16 years without knowing about the fact that briefings do not cover all TFRs even when you ask for TFRs is an indication of a system that is beyond broken.

    Of course, if the FAA (including the minions at LocMart) "don't know" when stadium TFRs are active, that begs the question on how can it be enforced...
     
  29. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you're asking me what I think of this personally, I would definitely agree that what we have in place right now is not ideal. I think the aviation industry as a whole has been saying that the NOTAM system as we know it (which includes TFRs) has been broken for many years now. The "Super D" NOTAM improvements were a nice enhancement to readability and organization, but only incrementally improved the process.

    The challenge at hand for the FAA is gathering information from disparate sources, aggregating them into one realtime, one-stop shop, and then making that accessible (and verifiable) via electronic medium. I would certainly support that effort, but in the meantime I'm all about realistic solutions.
     
  30. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If there is something in the works, I'm not aware of it. I would certainly hope so, however. In the meantime our team is strongly encouraging people to take two minutes to call FSS before flying. Although some pilots embrace the message, we've seen some resistance from people who really believe the Foreflight or GP briefing will cover them. But the short story there is, it won't. (The hows and whys get a bit complicated, but the result is always the same. I have seen it personally -- more than I would like to.)

    I'm part of a developing effort, ongoing at this time, to convince the FAA to release an InFO on the topic of phone calls to Flight Service for TFR briefings. Internally it is very clear that the only thing which comes close to a get-out-of-jail-free card for a pilot who ventures unaware into a POTUS TFR is a phone call to FSS, in which the briefer failed to mention the TFR. There is no official FAA guidance on that topic, although in "unofficial" conversations I've had with some folks in enforcement roles, that's pretty much the only acceptable excuse for not being aware of a TFR. So we see the intermediate solution being the phone call to Leidos. Out of the 33 TFR incursions we had in three days for the Bedminster POTUS TFR, every single one of them could have been avoided if the pilot had simply made that two minute phone call before departure.

    We'd like the FAA to back it up with an actual InFO. We have some encouraging signs on that front but it's too early to say if or when it will happen. It's a government operation, after all... but it would give some weight to these recommendations. If you're unfortunate enough to be involved in a TFR Incursion, the first thing the investigating inspector will look into is whether the pilot called for a briefing. If not, it's a surefire bet that the best case scenario from that point forward will be RT, and worst case, an enforcement action.

    It's a pretty easy short term fix for this problem. I do agree that we need to get something better in place, but for now, this is the best we've got.
     
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  31. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I only count 6 living presidents, Including President Trump. Who am I missing?

    Donald J Trump, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush and Jimmy Carter.

    Unless we are counting the headless body of Spiro Agnew.....

    [​IMG]
     
  32. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It’s a little known fact that Bill let Hillary be president for a day after the cigar incident.
     
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  33. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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  34. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah I had only counted six too. C'mon get with it Ravioli!
     
  35. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Guess you hit the nail on the head...I haven't been active for the past 16 years. I got my license 25 years ago, but quit flying about 18 years ago...I just got back into it. I thought all TFRs would be included on a briefing. I now find it beyond ridiculous that they are not.
     
  36. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So, when you got your re-tread review your instructor didn't mention changes in how airspace works and all TFR activity is not included in a TFR briefing because:
    A He was a young guy and thought it was always that way.
    B Couldn't do the math to figure out the last entry in your log book predates the changes.
    C Just plain forgot.
    D Didn't know his/herself.

    My money is on D.
     
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  37. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Aim small, miss small. A mile is pretty damn far off course...
     
  38. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    "C", I'm guessing. My re-tread was done by a guy just recently retired from the airlines.
    Although, I'm never one to throw blame without at least looking at myself, so it could be: E He said it but I didn't hear him, or thought I heard him wrong, because it would be ridiculous to think you could be violated by flying through airspace that even the FAA doesn't know at the time is a TFR.
     
  39. ripnet

    ripnet Pre-Flight

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    What about using www.1800wxbrief.com for your briefing? Since this is run by FSS (Leidos?) isn't this the exact same information you'd get from a human briefer? I use this site religiously before every flight.
     
  40. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    That is asinine. Seriously. I write software for a living. Who do I contact to fix this for them? This stuff isn't hard. It just takes willingness to recognize the problem and fix it.