Flaps and Carb Heat on Landing Rollout

WDD said:
My PPL CFI instilled in me to immediately raise the flaps and turn off carb heat - in that order- after touchdown in case had to take off again.

Thoughts?
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That seems odd. Reminds me of when I did my CDL driving test. Sitting at a stop light with the truck out of gear, the examiner told me that I should leave the truck in gear in case an emergency vehicle approached from behind so I could get out of the way quickly. I looked at her and said "I'm sitting at a dead stop. I'm pushing 80,000 lbs loaded and I'm nearly 70 feet long from nose to tail. If an emergency vehicle comes up behind me, the only thing I can do by moving is get in the way." Or at least that's what I said in my head... I just nodded and put it back in gear and sat on the clutch and rolled my eyes.

Like others have said - once the plane is on the ground, that's the place to leave it. I would rather put it in the grass than try to do a dirty takeoff or hurry through getting things cleaned up for takeoff. I've never tried it, but I wonder what it's like to try to take off while the flaps are retracting. Probably not fun.
 
donjohnston said:
First off, however you fly your plane is the right way. I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything different than they want to.

But we are trained to manage the airspeed, altitude, attitude, throttle, mixture, prop, trim, tune radios, talk on the radios, write down things we hear on the radios and few other things simultaneously. And if we're IFR, add in flying courses and glideslopes too.

Yet when we're rolling out on the runway while the only tasks are having to keep the plane on the runway and maybe listening to tower tell us which taxiway to exit on and what the ground frequency is, we're incapable of successfully moving the carb heat control and retracting the flaps?
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I only think of this in terms of the potential for a gear up landing which is why I wait. We make mistakes in all those others too. (At least I do; YMMV). But the results are not as immediate or less capable of correction and there us no countervailing benefit.

I think it was Rod Machado who said that from a psychological standpoint, there is no difference between tuning the wrong frequency and a gear up landing. Except the consequences.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it was Rod Machado who said that from a psychological standpoint, there is no difference between tuning the wrong frequency and a gear up landing. Except the consequences.
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I don’t agree with that at all. Maybe you could compare it to not turning the radio on.
 
Pinecone said:
Why retract the flaps on EVERY landing, because you might need it on a short field? Do you do every take off as a short field take off because you might, one day, have to take off from a short field????

STANDARD procedure should be to leave everything alone until off the runway. It is safer.

If something is DIFFERENT, then you modify your standard procedure for THAT time. So if the field is short, sure, raise the flaps after touchdown for better braking. But in that case, MAKE SURE you are raising the flaps.

Even with a big lever. Think about this, you train yourself to grab that lever and put it to the floor one roll out. Now you get a vintage Mooney. You grab the lever, move it to the floor and retract the gear.
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I should fly a PA-28 like a Mooney because I might fly a Mooney? That's the goofiest thing I've read all day. By the same logic should I fly a 12 mile final because I may, one day, fly a 737? Where's it end? I've actually read that some pilots won't slip a Piper with full flaps because some Cessnas have a warning sticker suggesting avoiding the practice. Should I avoid using heavy braking in a landing in a nosewheel aircraft, because it might somehow cause me to forget how to land a tailwheel? Do you avoid setting 172's fuel on "both" because such a setting doesn't exist in a Cherokee? Fly the airplane you're flying.

I fly PA-28's based out of a short field. Even if I didn't it's still easier to make the first turn at most airports with lighter braking without flaps.

I certain you're passionate about this, but it makes your chances of being right lower, not higher, in my experience.
 
A pilot knows when a go-around may be in play. A pilot doesn’t eff with flaps until he knows he’s down to stay. Retracting flaps is a commitment to staying on the ground.
 
Deelee said:
In the Arrow I dump the flaps when I'm on the rollout. That, plus making sure the yoke is as aft as I can get it helps with aero-braking. Works in the Arrow. But others may behave differently. Don't have a carb to heat, so I don't worry about that.
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Back when the club had an Arrow (along with a C-172 and C-182) I had to remind myself which one I was flying. At least, between the C-172 and the C-182. The Arrow was its own set of problems. Confusing the flaps and gear was NOT one of them. As noted, the flaps in the Arrow were operated by a Johnson Bar on the floor. The flaps on the Cessnas were operated by a switch on the panel. The gear on the Arrow was a switch with a detent so you had to pull it a bit before you could change the setting. Not so with the flaps on the Cessnas. I never had a problem switching between the Arrow and the Cessnas. One thing I liked about the Arrow was I never, in all the years I flew it, had a bounced landing. Once the mains touched down that plane was finished flying. Period. Not so with the Cessnas, although lately my problem with the 182 has been more of the reverse, dropping it in from a few inches above the runway. It doesn't bounce then, either. :D
 
Tantalum said:
Has a plane ever failed to execute a successful go-around because the carb heat was left on? I can't imagine it robs *that* much power
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Yes. All of the accidents I am familiar with where that was the case involved C150s with 2 people onboard.
 
jordane93 said:
There’s literally not one thing leaving your airplane configured that will harm your airplane if you wait until crossing the hold bars
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There is ONE thing that might harm an airplane if you don’t address it before leaving the runway: tailwheel lock on a Beech 18
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes. All of the accidents I am familiar with where that was the case involved C150s with 2 people onboard.
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Always learn stuff here. For what it's worth I'd been taught the "cram" technique, IE, just push everything forward in the event of a go around. carb heat, prop, etc. Was also taught to not fiddle with things during roll out unless there was an atypical need.. like a short field landing that requires immediate flap retraction

Risk is simply too high to gear it up.. and with a fleet of rental planes that have all sorts of various spots for gear and flap switches.. some of which look and feel similar (I'm looking at you Bonanza) that seems like prudent advice
 
Rgbeard said:
I believe he's in the "Ejection handle" category.

And I've got a memory that says the plane was a total loss.
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No, he’s in “Supporter” category. I just checked. That really sucks if he totaled it. I believe he had just joined that partnership.

There’s something about doctors and Bonanzas....
 
midlifeflyer said:
He's the psychologist, not me.
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I've been thinking about this, and I still think it's wrong. I think forgetting to throw the gear switch at the point you normally do is equivalent to tuning the wrong frequency, which is probably what he means. But a "gear up landing" means tuning the wrong frequency (forgetting to throw the switch), not noticing that nobody is talking to you (not noticing your airspeed is higher than normal), and then not looking at the frequency to see that it's wrong (not noticing the gear lights aren't on and the gear alarm is blaring at you).

In short, I think forgetting to throw the switch is an easy mistake to make. Not noticing until you hit the prop on the ground is far more difficult, IMO.
 
Salty said:
I've been thinking about this, and I still think it's wrong. I think forgetting to throw the gear switch at the point you normally do is equivalent to tuning the wrong frequency, which is probably what he means. But a "gear up landing" means tuning the wrong frequency (forgetting to throw the switch), not noticing that nobody is talking to you (not noticing your airspeed is higher than normal), and then not looking at the frequency to see that it's wrong (not noticing the gear lights aren't on and the gear alarm is blaring at you).

In short, I think forgetting to throw the switch is an easy mistake to make. Not noticing until you hit the prop on the ground is far more difficult, IMO.
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Depends a bit on the airplane.

I’m pretty certain it is dang near impossible to not notice the gear is up on my Beech 18. It is impossible to get inside the flap operating arc without the gear down in normal operations. Without the gear down, I would literally have to pull the throttles back to idle and pitch up in order to slow that much.

Other airplanes are a lot easier to not notice the drag if you have enough of the right distractions.
 
I was taught same in PPL because we did a lot of T&G to maximize practice time. Land, clean up, full power, take off.
 
Salty said:
I've been thinking about this, and I still think it's wrong. I think forgetting to throw the gear switch at the point you normally do is equivalent to tuning the wrong frequency, which is probably what he means. But a "gear up landing" means tuning the wrong frequency (forgetting to throw the switch), not noticing that nobody is talking to you (not noticing your airspeed is higher than normal), and then not looking at the frequency to see that it's wrong (not noticing the gear lights aren't on and the gear alarm is blaring at you).

In short, I think forgetting to throw the switch is an easy mistake to make. Not noticing until you hit the prop on the ground is far more difficult, IMO.
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Yep. One would think. I'm sure many CFIs teach it that way too. Look at all the things that tell you the gear isn't down. Nevertheless it happens again and again and again. Mooneys which are "impossible" to slow down with the gear retracted. Part 135 turboprops with 2-pilot crews. It even happens in training flights. I think retracts are more costly to insure than similarly-valued non-retracts for a reason.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’m pretty certain it is dang near impossible to not notice the gear is up on my Beech 18. It is impossible to get inside the flap operating arc without the gear down in normal operations. Without the gear down, I would literally have to pull the throttles back to idle and pitch up in order to slow that much.
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Read the accident report on Continental 1943.

They had failed to put the hydraulic pumps on High, and turn on the Alt Gear Pump and electrical Aux pump, on their descent checklist. In that configuration, there was little to no hydraulic pressure available to lower the gear, slats, and flaps.

They were so busy trying to get the airplane slowed down that they didn't notice the gear horn or their lack of gear and flaps.
 
Larry in TN said:
Read the accident report on Continental 1943.

They had failed to put the hydraulic pumps on High, and turn on the Alt Gear Pump and electrical Aux pump, on their descent checklist. In that configuration, there was little to no hydraulic pressure available to lower the gear, slats, and flaps.

They were so busy trying to get the airplane slowed down that they didn't notice the gear horn or their lack of gear and flaps.
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No offense Larry, but what does that have to do with a Beech 18?
 
Larry in TN said:
the inability to slow down distracted them from noticing that the gear horn was sounding and their gear and flaps weren't deployed
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The human mind is a marvelous thing.. isn't that like starving to death because you were so hungry you forgot to eat and were distracted by how hungry you are?
 
Half Fast said:
I disagree. In my Beech, leaving the flaps down will harm my tires during braking, and I have the flat spot to prove it. That’s why there is a required placard on the panel.

This matter depends on the aircraft and the runway.
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It sure will if you don’t move the control wheel to full aft prior to breaking.
 
Clip4 said:
It sure will if you don’t move the control wheel to full aft prior to breaking.
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The placard required by the type certificate doesn’t say “Move yoke full aft before braking,” though doing so is a good thing. The placard calls for raising the flaps, and that’s because it’s necessary even with good landing technique including an aft yoke.
 
Albany Tom said:
I should fly a PA-28 like a Mooney because I might fly a Mooney? That's the goofiest thing I've read all day. By the same logic should I fly a 12 mile final because I may, one day, fly a 737? Where's it end? I've actually read that some pilots won't slip a Piper with full flaps because some Cessnas have a warning sticker suggesting avoiding the practice. Should I avoid using heavy braking in a landing in a nosewheel aircraft, because it might somehow cause me to forget how to land a tailwheel? Do you avoid setting 172's fuel on "both" because such a setting doesn't exist in a Cherokee? Fly the airplane you're flying.

I fly PA-28's based out of a short field. Even if I didn't it's still easier to make the first turn at most airports with lighter braking without flaps.

I certain you're passionate about this, but it makes your chances of being right lower, not higher, in my experience.
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Huh, you are making my point.

You fly the way you need to fly for THAT plane on THAT day doing what you are doing THEN. Not because you might need to do it another way once or twice.

If you need to do it another way, you think about it and do it the other way.

I don't raise flaps on the runway every landing. But if is is a short field I will consider the need for the extra braking action.
 
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