Ferry Pilot Concerns / Contract

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
A good friend at our local airport is thinking of ferrying a plane for a new owner on our local field. My friend is 1500+ hr commerical pilot, lots of VFR and IFR time and is current. He is planning on taking another commerical pilot with instead of the new owner as it will be a 1600sm flight from the SoCal area back up here to Minnesota.

The new owner seem pretty cool about and really just wants the plane moved. He isn't PPL yet and although it would be a good trip for him he has time constraints so probably best that the new owner not ride with. The new owner seems to be realistic about the ferry costs so as of now there no disputes of any type.

But my friend has the obvious concerns. What if stranded? What if he damages it? What if its a death trap and he decides not to fly it once he gets there. Has anyone done this an written up a contract? What about insurance, is my friend covered even if the new buyer for some reason did not have valid coverage.

What advice or suggestions would you have for them? How formal does this need to be?
 
Doesn't sound like your friend is ready to be a ferry pilot. I've ferried dozens of planes coast to coast.

I can assure you that it NEVER goes according to plan, and the planes are NEVER in the stated condition. Weather is often a factor and you may get stranded for days.

It's also a crap ton of fun and very rewarding. I usually do it for free. Be flexible, fly the plane like it's your own. Stay in contact with the owner of there are any significant airworthiness issues.

Start out by flying legs that are no longer than 2 hours so you can figure your actual fuel and oil burn. If the plane is IFR and you plan to fly in any significant weather, file several legs IFR in VFR weather before you trust any of the equipment.
 
Yeah, he isn't striving to be a ferry pilot. But his seasonal work doesn't start for another few weeks so he's got "time to spare...". His daughter also has her commercial so he is thinking of having her tag along. He is doing it for the experience and not the money.

But at the same time doesn't want to get financially burned if something were to happen beyond his control. Hence the questions about insurance and possible contracts.

He's probably more worried about things beyond his control like they overnight and a ramper rashes or trashes the plane. Or some freak wind storm sitting on the ramp. I'm guessing its the new owner's insurance? Somewhat atypical - the new owner has never even seen the plane so his first view will be the day it lands here at home.

I will definitely pass on your advice!
 
I do this a few times a month.

I estimate my expenses for the entire ferry trip and get it in hand up front. This serves two purposes:

1. It skips an entire category of horse excrement called "stories about money" which I loathe and make no time for.

2. If I only make it part way, I have an unspent budget that I can redirect to extract myself from the situation if I need to. Say, if the owner doesn't want to effect repairs. I also have a day rate if needed to cover time spent in the field dealing with curveballs, and have no problem demanding a "top up" to account for a new plan. Failure to agree at that moment leaves me the option to extract out and bid them bonne chance.

I also don't dispatch unless I'm insured, usually as a named insured on the owner policy. This can be easier if the owner is onboard, insurance is insanely tight and annoying lately.

I don't have a formal contract but I'm increasingly thinking about it. Costs are starting to get high enough to be "worth fighting over" and I prefer things crystal clear and sorted beforehand.
 
schmookeeg said:
I do this a few times a month.

I estimate my expenses for the entire ferry trip and get it in hand up front. This serves two purposes:

1. It skips an entire category of horse excrement called "stories about money" which I loathe and make no time for.

2. If I only make it part way, I have an unspent budget that I can redirect to extract myself from the situation if I need to. Say, if the owner doesn't want to effect repairs. I also have a day rate if needed to cover time spent in the field dealing with curveballs, and have no problem demanding a "top up" to account for a new plan. Failure to agree at that moment leaves me the option to extract out and bid them bonne chance.

I also don't dispatch unless I'm insured, usually as a named insured on the owner policy. This can be easier if the owner is onboard, insurance is insanely tight and annoying lately.

I don't have a formal contract but I'm increasingly thinking about it. Costs are starting to get high enough to be "worth fighting over" and I prefer things crystal clear and sorted beforehand.
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Thanks for the comments and suggestions. If it were 10yrs ago the Dakota he's flying home would probably be worth $ 35K. Now with jacked prices, tricked out panel and who knows what I am sure the buyer paid quite a lot. I could see how that has my buddy wondering about the insurance coverage and possible contracts.
 
aftCG said:
Doesn't sound like your friend is ready to be a ferry pilot. I've ferried dozens of planes coast to coast.

I can assure you that it NEVER goes according to plan, and the planes are NEVER in the stated condition. Weather is often a factor and you may get stranded for days.

It's also a crap ton of fun and very rewarding. I usually do it for free. Be flexible, fly the plane like it's your own. Stay in contact with the owner of there are any significant airworthiness issues.

Start out by flying legs that are no longer than 2 hours so you can figure your actual fuel and oil burn. If the plane is IFR and you plan to fly in any significant weather, file several legs IFR in VFR weather before you trust any of the equipment.
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You’ve ferried dozens of planes coast to coast and usually do it for free? Unless these are all good friends of yours, may I ask why? Your time is worth nothing?

To the OP, yes a contract is important. Pretty standard actually, and they basically say that the owner covers all costs incurred for any delays or early return of the pilot, or late return of the pilot. Mine says that if the plane breaks somewhere, or gets stuck by weather or whatever, we’ll talk and decide what to do. But if I’m sitting somewhere for a few days while the plane is stranded, I’m still making my day rate and getting paid for lodging and meals. It’s either that or pay to get me back home in the interim (and then back out again). Yes, this could get expensive, but I’m not a charity.

I’ve never had anyone balk at the contract. If they were to, I’d calmly suggest that I’m not what they’re looking for.
 
Yes, in every case it is for family, friends, former students. I jump at the chance.

C172 to T-6, I'm your ho. Get me there and cover the fuel and hotels. I was going to eat anyway. I use vacation days as needed.
 
RussR said:
You’ve ferried dozens of planes coast to coast and usually do it for free? Unless these are all good friends of yours, may I ask why? Your time is worth nothing?
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When I retire I would do it for expenses only just as a chance to travel on someone else's dime.
 
I'm with RussR on this. I don't know what profession you guys who do contract pilot work for free are in. But if there were people who would do your job for free (and hence lower or eliminate the opportunity for you to be paid), I think you would look at this differently.
 
Lance F said:
I'm with RussR on this. I don't know what profession you guys who do contract pilot work for free are in. But if there were people who would do your job for free (and hence lower or eliminate the opportunity for you to be paid), I think you would look at this differently.
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I've said if I ever won the big lottery, I would stay in business sell everything for cost/loss, just to put people (competitors) who ****ed me off over the years on the street. Then after they are living in a cardboard box, I'll close things up.
 
Lance F said:
I'm with RussR on this. I don't know what profession you guys who do contract pilot work for free are in. But if there were people who would do your job for free (and hence lower or eliminate the opportunity for you to be paid), I think you would look at this differently.
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That's like a chef getting mad because I'm willing to cook dinner if you buy the ingredients. Everyone in my extended family will line up for my cooking and they compare it to eating at a great restaurant. Yet no restaurant will go out of business over it.
 
aftCG said:
That's like a chef getting mad because I'm willing to cook dinner if you buy the ingredients. Everyone in my extended family will line up for my cooking and they compare it to eating at a great restaurant. Yet no restaurant will go out of business over it.
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a more accurate comparison would be if you opened your own BUSINESS (restaurant) and cooked for free the ingredients other people paid for.
 
If enough people want to do the work you do for less than you are willing to do it, such that it impacts your livelihood, well, maybe you're in the wrong business? Suck it up, buttercup.
 
My buddy moved El Paso to Washington DC area. My other friend flew his cub cross country and delivered it to him. First friend sold same Cub a couple of months later to a buyer who, miracously, lives just north of El Paso. New buyer ferry pilot crashed cub on return to our area and totaled it (ground loop). He had a TON of hours in 737 AC, am guessing not a bunch in tail draggers .... it was a very nice cub until the wreck ...
 
Sinistar said:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. If it were 10yrs ago the Dakota he's flying home would probably be worth $ 35K. Now with jacked prices, tricked out panel and who knows what I am sure the buyer paid quite a lot. I could see how that has my buddy wondering about the insurance coverage and possible contracts.
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Were Dakota's really selling for 35k 10 years ago? Makes me almost wish I didn't buy the house
 
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I would think that when I retire, my time would be MORE valuable, not less. Since basic actuarial data means I have less of it left.

The problem, of course, with aviation is that it IS enjoyable. And many people WOULD be willing to do it for free.

Now, I don't hang out in these communities, but I imagine you don't hear:
- Truck drivers saying that they can't wait to retire so they can drive loads across the country for free.
- Plumbers who will work free just for something to do.
- Doctors doing appendectomies for free just to keep their skills sharp.

There are always exceptions in any field, of course for friends and family, or for charity.
 
aftCG said:
Yes, in every case it is for family, friends, former students. I jump at the chance.

C172 to T-6, I'm your ho. Get me there and cover the fuel and hotels. I was going to eat anyway. I use vacation days as needed.
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EdFred said:
When I retire I would do it for expenses only just as a chance to travel on someone else's dime.
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Screen_Shot_2020-01-14_at_10.34.57_AM.jpg
 
To the OP's original premise, certainly an actual contract would make things indelible. You may or may not need that, you be the judge. I've been lucky, the ferry trips I've done (all with pro-level remuneration) have been done for known friends and acquaintances, all worked out on handshakes. And, never had any huge snafus that, say, doubled estimated charges. And, you certainly want to pin down insurance details, no matter what the other 'arrangements' may be.
But, on the professional side, yes, it's different. Once you've made your living flying, you're not really interested in giving time away any more. There are certainly trips/gigs that I might do for free, say, a travel to locations where I could visit friends/relatives as part of the excursion. Or, maybe, "I need somebody to come along to help ferry my brand new PC-12 from Switzerland to the U.S, we'll have four days in Lucerne and another 4 days in Reykjavik," I might be happy to go and donate time. But, you want a pro-level pilot to airline to Youngstown, Ohio and fly a 1963 Cherokee 180 back to California? I'm charging you the full daily rate plus expense. (Don't get mad, I've got nothing against Youngstown, Ohio!). You may find a young wannabe that would do that trip for free, great, once upon a time I was in that position, too. Great, call them, I'll stay home and go fishing.
 
schmookeeg said:
1. It skips an entire category of horse excrement called "stories about money" which I loathe and make no time for.
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I like this. Can you give some previous examples of "stories about money?"
 
fasteddie said:
I like this. Can you give some previous examples of "stories about money?"
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From this year alone:

A buyer angrily tried to talk down my ferry day rate after I had arrived at the destination to inspect a plane -- apparently he found someone $100/day less than me and was livid that I would charge more. (this is not hard to do, btw) My answer was not only no, but I was happy to forfeit the ferry work completely and save him from overpaying -- I completed the prebuy since I was already there, used the prepaid ferry funds to return myself home, then paypalled him the rest. I have no idea how his bargain pilot worked out, not my issue at that point. The return ticket cost as much as the potential savings so I have no idea what his intended play was.

I had a gentleman at the last minute "clarify" that the intended plane I was to visit was not 20mi from a major carrier airport (served by 12 nonstop flights/day from SFO) but instead out in the weeds at an an airport that would take me a connection and a 4 hour layover to arrive at the only inbound flight each day (at 6pm, too late for inspecting things). He balked when I quoted an extra travel day ($500) to account for it. I balked when he balked. He actually complained about my "bait and switch" tactics to the broker who referred me.

===

But in the context of the original remark, though, these sort of characters are ALL OVER aviation -- cheapasses and scoundrels and bullies who will use any advantage to chew an extra nickel out of you. Avoid them! Without prepaid funds, I would be out of pocket on a ferry operation and basically at their mercy, and for the above scenarios, I might have had no recourse but to just eat it.

Respect your time, because they sure won't. A lot of folks think they're doing me a favor with these flights. With 2500 baron/bonanza hours in my log, I sure don't need another 8.5 pottering westbound into a 50kt headwind with a view of Wyoming. Thanks anyway?

/salt :D
 
Lance F said:
I'm with RussR on this. I don't know what profession you guys who do contract pilot work for free are in. But if there were people who would do your job for free (and hence lower or eliminate the opportunity for you to be paid), I think you would look at this differently.
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Plenty of people practice my profession for free. I've done it too. In fact, the rules that govern my profession encourage it. Even among people who charge in my profession, rates range from "almost poverty" cheap to "why would anyone pay that" expensive.
 
Ferry flights are fun and great, until something goes wrong. I've been asked to fly an experimental with a brand new USED engine installation, that had never yet been flown, a repaired RV-3 that ended up having an undisclosed nasty roll tendency, and ferried a Cub that decided to self-destruct it's gascolator, streaming fuel over the firewall and causing the engine to run rough, stranding me for my birthday in the middle of nowhere Alabama... with no rental car and walking to town. The maintenance team damaging the cowling, when the wind blew it over since there wasn't even a hangar available, and the guy I was ferrying for who was contracting to the buyer asked me cough up some of the pay for the ferry. Honestly, things can go downhill in a hurry, and it's not something I'd do for free. That particular job soured me a bit on the ferry experience, though I had a few more enjoyable ferries after that, and I don't hold any animosity towards the buyer, who is an upstanding member here.
I'd say about 1/3 of the ferry jobs I ever did had something "interesting" happen.
 
aftCG said:
Yes, in every case it is for family, friends, former students. I jump at the chance.

C172 to T-6, I'm your ho. Get me there and cover the fuel and hotels. I was going to eat anyway. I use vacation days as needed.
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Whores are paid for their services. I think slut is the proper word.
 
Perfect timing on this post... I was recently asked to ferry a plane from Atlanta to California. I'm debating on whether to do it or not. The plane just came out of annual and I know the A & P, so I'm not worried about the plane. I guess my decision comes down to expense reimbursement. i.e. fuel, hotels, return flight. Am I missing anything?
 
Flocker said:
Perfect timing on this post... I was recently asked to ferry a plane from Atlanta to California. I'm debating on whether to do it or not. The plane just came out of annual and I know the A & P, so I'm not worried about the plane. I guess my decision comes down to expense reimbursement. i.e. fuel, hotels, return flight. Am I missing anything?
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what type of plane? let me know if you turn it down :)
 
Flocker said:
Perfect timing on this post... I was recently asked to ferry a plane from Atlanta to California. I'm debating on whether to do it or not. The plane just came out of annual and I know the A & P, so I'm not worried about the plane. I guess my decision comes down to expense reimbursement. i.e. fuel, hotels, return flight. Am I missing anything?
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It's pretty straightforward. You shouldn't be "out-of-pocket" for anything.
- You should usually be paid a "day rate". "Trip rate" is possible, but for a long flight like that I wouldn't do a flat rate for the trip.
- Hotels
- Fuel - if you can get a credit card from them, that's best.
- Return flight - if you can get the owner to make these for you, I think that's best. That way you're not out any money if something changes, cancels, whatever.
- Uber from home to GA airport
- Uber from GA airport to Airline airport
- Uber from airline airport to home
- Or airline airport parking fees, as appropriate
- Meals - opinions vary. I often just include those in my day rate, since I don't want to deal with submitting receipts. But many others do submit receipts. Either way.

Upfront payment is very desirable, unless you really know these people well and trust them. I certainly wouldn't be making any non-refundable reservations of any sort without upfront payment for them.
 
RussR said:
Upfront payment is very desirable, unless you really know these people well and trust them. I certainly wouldn't be making any non-refundable reservations of any sort without upfront payment for them.
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Just keep the logbooks (or an easily removable, yet expensive {more than they owe})until they pay. ;)
 
So, when I sell my Cessna T210 and offer to deliver it for expenses, or even for nothing, does that make me a slut, or a whore?

Whatever happened to “let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”?

There sure is a lot of sanctimonious finger pointing on this website.
 
orca64 said:
So, when I sell my Cessna T210 and offer to deliver it for expenses, or even for nothing, does that make me a slut, or a whore?

Whatever happened to “let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”?

There sure is a lot of sanctimonious finger pointing on this website.
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are you in the BUSINESS of repeatedly selling your planes and delivering them for free? then no, it's not the same thing.

and if you don't like the website........
 
And, what about those people who go out and play golf themselves instead of hiring a professional? Shame, shame, shame.
 
eman1200 said:
are you in the BUSINESS of repeatedly selling your planes and delivering them for free? then no, it's not the same thing.

and if you don't like the website........
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I thought it would take longer than that. ………..
 
Sssssshhhhhh. You guys are interrupting my grieving for the poor, unfortunate, ferry pilots that will go hungry tonight because of the greedy amateurs (that spent their own money to get a commercial license) doing it for free.
 
Salty said:
Sssssshhhhhh. You guys are interrupting my grieving for the poor, unfortunate, ferry pilots that will go hungry tonight because of the greedy amateurs (that spent their own money to get a commercial license) doing it for free.
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I don’t know what business you are in, but you would be cool with someone opening up an office next door and providing the same services that you do for free?
 
I REALLY enjoy mowing my lawn. think I'll leave flyers all around town that I'll mow lawns for free.
 
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