Ferry Pilot Concerns / Contract

[Tarheelpilot]

So, when I sell my Cessna T210 and offer to deliver it for expenses, or even for nothing, does that make me a slut, or a whore?

Whatever happened to “let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”?

There sure is a lot of sanctimonious finger pointing on this website.

I was not pointing any fingers. I was correcting someone on their vocabulary. They referred to themself as a “ho”. Slut would have been more appropriate since they were working for free. Whores work cheap. Escorts are expensive and much harder to pick out from the crowd amongst “respectable” people. I’m an escort. You can be whatever you want to be and I could not care less.


I’ll just add that “You get what you pay for” is not always true but it is often the case.

 

[orca64]

I was not pointing any fingers. I was correcting someone on their vocabulary. They referred to themself as a “ho”. Slut would have been more appropriate since they were working for free. Whores work cheap. Escorts are expensive and much harder to pick out from the crowd amongst “respectable” people. I’m an escort. You can be whatever you want to be and I could not care less.


I’ll just add that “You get what you pay for” is not always true but it is often the case.

I agree with your last sentence. That was my point. It’s really not my place to tell someone what they may or may not do, as long as they are safe and legal. Even if their actions hurt my feelings. Life is not fair.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I agree with your last sentence. That was my point. It’s really not my place to tell someone what they may or may not do, as long as they are safe and legal. Even if their actions hurt my feelings. Life is not fair.

Nope. It’s not.

I have lost revenue as a commercial pilot to guys working free to build time, have fun on the side or whatever ******** reason they had to provide commercial services for free. That’s their choice. I can’t change it. I mean people do stupid stuff all the time. I never took it personally or thought it was my place to try stopping people.
I have also seen how getting the free ferry pilot can end up costing a lot more money than hiring someone that actually knows what they are doing.

 

[orca64]

Nope. It’s not.

I have lost revenue as a commercial pilot to guys working free to build time, have fun on the side or whatever ******** reason they had to provide commercial services for free. That’s their choice. I can’t change it. I mean people do stupid stuff all the time. I never took it personally or thought it was my place to try stopping people.
I have also seen how getting the free ferry pilot can end up costing a lot more money than hiring someone that actually knows what they are doing.

You’re right, Tar Heel. You do, nearly always, get what you pay for.

 

[Lindberg]

I don’t know what business you are in, but you would be cool with someone opening up an office next door and providing the same services that you do for free?

If someone can consistently deliver the same level of service for free that I charge for, and they can do it in enough volume to hurt my business, then the problem is with me, not them.

Do you guys hate on free products like MyFlightbook and Avare that provide services other companies charge for?

 

[RyanShort1]

I agree with your last sentence. That was my point. It’s really not my place to tell someone what they may or may not do, as long as they are safe and legal. Even if their actions hurt my feelings. Life is not fair.

At the end of the day, deliberately undercutting those who are charging a reasonable rate to pay their bills is annoying. Doing a few jobs for free to help a friend is one thing, intentionally stating you want to hurt other people that have kids to feed, etc... that's where what may be legal, is definitely not kind, or moral.

 

[bflynn]

At the end of the day, deliberately undercutting those who are charging a reasonable rate to pay their bills is annoying.

I think you meant to say being undercut is annoying. The one doing the undercutting probably doesn’t care.

 

[orca64]

At the end of the day, deliberately undercutting those who are charging a reasonable rate to pay their bills is annoying. Doing a few jobs for free to help a friend is one thing, intentionally stating you want to hurt other people that have kids to feed, etc... that's where what may be legal, is definitely not kind, or moral.

There have been many times that people have annoyed me by doing or saying things, inadvertently or unthinkingly, that impact me. There have been many times that people have ****ed me off by purposely doing or saying things that have impacted me.

I might want to shut them down or make them stop. But it is a free Country. Unless they break a law that results in a criminal act, or break a law that results in a civil tort, i hitch up my big pilot pants and press on.

I cannot save, or even change the world. Only my very, very little corner of it.

 

[Albany Tom]

I don't know anything about ferrying aircraft. But I do know that if a random person offers to mow your lawn for free, and you let them, and they wreck your lawn, you're pretty much just going to get laughter from anyone that you tell the story to. "Your honor, he said he'd mow my lawn for free, then he....."

When I had a computer consulting business, I was sometimes annoyed by being under bid by people that didn't know any better. But I never worried about somebody's brother in law working for free.

 

[Sifossifoco]

I have, among other silly things, a PADI diving instructor license, which I got without any intention of using for work. For a while I took friends out on a discovery dive, or even did an open water course for them, obviously for free. I didn't see any issue till another friend of mine, who actually works as a diving instructor for a living, made me notice that I was taking potential income away from him and others like him. I tried to ignore the thought, initially, but eventually it made me feel uncomfortable, knowing that diving instructors are not exactly rich people. I stopped teaching friends for free, and now I refer them to 'real', full time instructors. I believe they get served better, and we can still dive together after they finish their course. I have no commercial pilot license, but I would think the same way about ferrying a plane for free. It would be best done by a full time professional, even if I had the ratings to do it, and would enjoy doing it once in a while.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I have, among other silly things, a PADI diving instructor license, which I got without any intention of using for work. For a while I took friends out on a discovery dive, or even did an open water course for them, obviously for free. I didn't see any issue till another friend of mine, who actually works as a diving instructor for a living, made me notice that I was taking potential income away from him and others like him. I tried to ignore the thought, initially, but eventually it made me feel uncomfortable, knowing that diving instructors are not exactly rich people. I stopped teaching friends for free, and now I refer them to 'real', full time instructors. I believe they get served better, and we can still dive together after they finish their course. I have no commercial pilot license, but I would think the same way about ferrying a plane for free. It would be best done by a full time professional, even if I had the ratings to do it, and would enjoy doing it once in a while.

Yeah you get it. I have a CFII MEI. I don’t teach at all anymore. Have had several friends ask me to help them out and I gladly refer them to a local cfi and offer to be their mentor. I fly full time but I have not taught a primary student in over two decades. I would be a terrible instructor. Unless you want me to get you ready for a type ride. I could do that for you. Need me to teach you for a private. Oh man that would be a mess.

 

[RyanShort1]

I think you meant to say being undercut is annoying. The one doing the undercutting probably doesn’t care.

No, I said what I meant. If someone is intentionally doing it to stick it to people, as some in this thread have intimated, that's a moral issue. No, it's not a crime, and I'm not advocating that it should be a crime, but it is still wrongly motivated. OTOH, if you are a friend helping a friend, I don't think it's immoral at all, and I'm not hurt about it.

 

[RyanShort1]

There have been many times that people have annoyed me by doing or saying things, inadvertently or unthinkingly, that impact me. There have been many times that people have ****ed me off by purposely doing or saying things that have impacted me.

I might want to shut them down or make them stop. But it is a free Country. Unless they break a law that results in a criminal act, or break a law that results in a civil tort, i hitch up my big pilot pants and press on.

I cannot save, or even change the world. Only my very, very little corner of it.

Yeah, I'm just saying that if those people are doing it for the wrong motive, it's wrong, whether or not it's a crime. Purposefully being rude to another person is a moral failing, and yes, big boys let it roll like water on a duck's back, but I still think it's ok to point it out as wrong. At the end of the day, the principle of loving your neighbor as yourself should guide people.

 

[Salty]

Wow. Lots of people do what I do for less than I do. The better I get at what I do, and the more connections I make, the more that becomes true. In fact, at this point, there are very few people that do what I do for MORE than I do it for. It never has and never will bother me one bit when someone does it for less, or free. Long ago, I was that guy willing to do it for free to get a chance to do it at all.

looking at it from another perspective. Maybe you guys need to lobby to get EAA banned from flying young eagles. I mean, I don’t even have a commercial yet, and here I am flying kids for free, practically stealing money out of your pocket. I’m such a dirt bag.

And yet another perspective. I am already screwed because I would love to be a professional pilot, but all you pros work too cheap for me to change careers. *Shakes my fist and curses you for working for practically free*

 

[Salty]

I have, among other silly things, a PADI diving instructor license, which I got without any intention of using for work. For a while I took friends out on a discovery dive, or even did an open water course for them, obviously for free. I didn't see any issue till another friend of mine, who actually works as a diving instructor for a living, made me notice that I was taking potential income away from him and others like him. I tried to ignore the thought, initially, but eventually it made me feel uncomfortable, knowing that diving instructors are not exactly rich people. I stopped teaching friends for free, and now I refer them to 'real', full time instructors. I believe they get served better, and we can still dive together after they finish their course. I have no commercial pilot license, but I would think the same way about ferrying a plane for free. It would be best done by a full time professional, even if I had the ratings to do it, and would enjoy doing it once in a while.

I feel bad for any of your friends that never got to know the joy of diving because you stopped.
Think of all the money the pro diver instructors could have made from them if you’d got them hooked.

 

[Sifossifoco]

I feel bad for any of your friends that never got to know the joy of diving because you stopped.
Think of all the money the pro diver instructors could have made from them if you’d got them hooked.

Sadly, there isn't much money in recreational scuba diving. And it's not all about money either. I dive a lot, but it's not recreational diving. My gear is completely different, and I was in the same situation of the Airbus pilot ferrying a taildragger. At the end, my friends are better served with a proper recreational diving instructor. I will take them out when they move into rebreathers, if they will ever do...

 

[Salty]

Sadly, there isn't much money in recreational scuba diving. And it's not all about money either. I dive a lot, but it's not recreational diving. My gear is completely different, and I was in the same situation of the Airbus pilot ferrying a taildragger. At the end, my friends are better served with a proper recreational diving instructor. I will take them out when they move into rebreathers, if they will ever do...

So, the truth is, you don't want to do that for people for free. Fair enough, but not really relevant. It actually goes to prove my point.

 

[GaryM]

Plenty of people practice my profession for free.

I'm a chemist, and plenty of people practice my profession for free as well, for a time. Then they end up getting arrested, or their trailer blows up, so there isn't much long-term impact to the profession.

 

[Salty]

I'm really kinda shocked how many Americans think price controls are a good thing. In my business, it's a felony, but then again, many have gotten filthy rich doing it.

 

[Wagondriver]

I've lost jobs in the past because my price was higher than the competition. But, the competition gave an intentionally low bid and then added little bits during the duration of the job and at the end the contractor ended up paying quite a bit more for the "low" bid. And that's without taking into consideration the quality of the work.

You usually get what you pay for.

 

[RyanShort1]

I'm really kinda shocked how many Americans think price controls are a good thing. In my business, it's a felony, but then again, many have gotten filthy rich doing it.

You’re equivocating, and misrepresenting what most of us have said.
The real shock is how many people will dump $30-90K on a plane, and ask you to deliver it safely for free, or talk you down. They value their time and money enough to save it for a plane, but not your time, and hopefully, skill.

 

[SkyChaser]

Trying to get someone to ferry a plane for as little cash as possible is a bit like hiring the cheapest babysitter to watch your kids when you're gone for an evening. With such important stuff at stake, you'd think people would want to protect them to the best of their ability by hiring only the best. But people are cheap and often don't seem to realize that there could be quality issues until it is too late to change their minds.

 

[Salty]

Trying to get someone to ferry a plane for as little cash as possible is a bit like hiring the cheapest babysitter to watch your kids when you're gone for an evening. With such important stuff at stake, you'd think people would want to protect them to the best of their ability by hiring only the best. But people are cheap and often don't seem to realize that there could be quality issues until it is too late to change their minds.

Well, yes and no. Just because someone charges a lot, doesn't mean they are more capable. Also, to use your comparison, Gramma is the cheapest babysitter, and I'd argue she's probably pretty close to the best as well.

 

[Dave Theisen]

We are all just rasslin’ with a pig at this point.

 

[eman1200]

sounds like the conversation is switching from someone offering services for free that are perfectly reasonable to charge for, to cheap customers trying to nickel and dime. two completely different subjects.

 

[SkyChaser]

Well, yes and no. Just because someone charges a lot, doesn't mean they are more capable. Also, to use your comparison, Gramma is the cheapest babysitter, and I'd argue she's probably pretty close to the best as well.

I was operating on general properties...usually someone who can afford to charge high prices has the skill to match. Also, I wasn't counting grandmas in the babysitting discussion...I also wasn't going to hire her. I'd just ask her. LOL Of course, to bring the convo back around, is it fair for grandmas to babysit for free and "undercut" all the babysitters who are trying to make some money doing it?

 

[Star Keeper]

No one is entitled to a paycheck just because they went through all the training commensurate with a commercial pilot license. Ask all of those college graduates with advanced degrees in <insert useless degree here> who are upset that they can't get a job beyond starbucks. If someone is legally qualified to perform a task and they choose to not require compensation thats on them. Spend more time showing the value that you add. If you can't show additional value that justifies your expense then your business is definitely at risk.

 

[eman1200]

No one is entitled to a paycheck just because they went through all the training commensurate with a commercial pilot license. Ask all of those college graduates with advanced degrees in <insert useless degree here> who are upset that they can't get a job beyond starbucks. If someone is legally qualified to perform a task and they choose to not require compensation thats on them. Spend more time showing the value that you add. If you can't show additional value that justifies your expense then your business is definitely at risk.

not even close to what's happening here.

 

[kayoh190]

sounds like the conversation is switching from someone offering services for free that are perfectly reasonable to charge for, to cheap customers trying to nickel and dime. two completely different subjects.

Yeah, in typical PoA fashion I think folks are talking past each other. Some folks just like to argue for argument's sake.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If you want to make money, get out of the pilot's seat and into the cab of an excavator.
If you really want to fly, then the fact of the matter is you are competing against hobbyists and people looking to build time without paying through the nose.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Star Keeper]

not even close to what's happening here.

That seems to be the complaint to me. There are several people complaining because someone who is qualified to do the ferry but isn't charging a "reasonable rate" is taking business from someone who depends on ferrying to feed their family as if the fulltime ferry pilot is somehow more entitled to the business than anyone else. Frankly if I was well off and passionate enough about flying to just be happy to go up and fly other people's airplanes without needing the income then so be it.

 

[Salty]

Of course, to bring the convo back around, is it fair for grandmas to babysit for free and "undercut" all the babysitters who are trying to make some money doing it?

That’s exactly my point.

 

[Lindberg]

Trying to get someone to ferry a plane for as little cash as possible is a bit like hiring the cheapest babysitter to watch your kids when you're gone for an evening. With such important stuff at stake, you'd think people would want to protect them to the best of their ability by hiring only the best. But people are cheap and often don't seem to realize that there could be quality issues until it is too late to change their minds.

If you don't want to fly for free, don't. How hard is that?

Nobody has ever asked me to fly for free in an operation I could otherwise get paid for. Nevertheless, I do it almost every week.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If you want to make money, get out of the pilot's seat and into the cab of an excavator.
If you really want to fly, then the fact of the matter is you are competing against hobbyists and people looking to build time without paying through the nose.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Lol. That’s funny.

 

[EdFred]

At the end of the day, deliberately undercutting those who are charging a reasonable rate to pay their bills is annoying. Doing a few jobs for free to help a friend is one thing, intentionally stating you want to hurt other people that have kids to feed, etc... that's where what may be legal, is definitely not kind, or moral.

Then they shouldn't have sniped business from me when I was the one trying to put food on the table.

 

[RyanShort1]

Then they shouldn't have sniped business from me when I was the one trying to put food on the table.

Ah, so revenge?

 

[EdFred]

Ah, so revenge?

Absolutely. Don't **** with me, I won't **** with you. But if you do, when I have the means, it will be repaid 10 fold.

 

[schmookeeg]

I actually have no idea what is being discussed in here anymore. But I applaud the fervor on display, so I keep returning.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Whatever happened to “let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone”?

It got followed up with “go and sin no more.”

 

[Rich Holt]

Some professions actually require members to provide their services for free. I don't think it hurts those professions in the end.