FAF to MAP Speeds

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by 2nd505th, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. Maxnr

    Maxnr Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    NW FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Dingley
    90KTS is not too fast if there is faster traffic behind you. The FARs don't give much guidance. They only tell you who, what where or when. If you want "how", go to the AIM. (It says on the cover that its The Official Guide to Basic Info AND ATC procedures) Go to para 5-4-7. They stripped out a lot for the current year. Last years edition said that if you wanted Cat A minimums, you had to hold a stabilized airspeed from FAF to MAP. BTW, anybody know where I can find the FAA definition for stabilized airspeed? Its not in FAR 1.1 or AIM glossary. Previous years editions said that you had to fly the entire procedure at a Stabilized Airspeed. Procedure turn outbound,FAF inbound. Sounds like that should slow everybody up. The whole idea of slipping into approach cat B or higher is not too likely. Look at the approach light arrays at destinations with ILS. They burn through the soup nicely. Cat A through D usually have the same minimums.
    Full disclosure: I am IFR rated in both airplanes and helos. Helo pilots go to AIM para 10-1-2 for guidance. A helo can get vectors to the localizer (at, say KIAH) capture the GS at more than 25 miles out and 5,000', pass the FAF at 155KTS with the gear still up and an air liner, number two behind you. ATC request that you keep your speed up. Within 7 or 8 miles DME from the MAP, select DECL on the flight director and the AP starts a deceleration. Get the wipers at 140KTS and drop the gear at 130. The AP brings you over the RW at 70KTS and 50'. Run it on, get on the brakes, Make the first turn off..
    If you have time to kill, read both paragraphs that are cited. Helos like to get into approach cat A. IAW Aim para 10-1-2, a helo appr cat is determined at whatever speed it passes the MAP at. 90 kts or less means you can go to FAR 97.3 (C) for bonus points. You may then cut the required visibility in half to not less than 1/4 mile or RVR 1200.
     
  2. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    6,046
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Yes... the way I always interpreted the category is the higher of 1.3 Vso or the speed flown after the FAF.
    Generally that’s for circle, but I believe it can be a factor on the straight in approach in the event of a missed.
    Correct me if I’m wrong...
     
  3. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    899
    Location:
    Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Walboy

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  4. IK04

    IK04 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    I flew a brand-new Cessna 152 into my home airport and the controller did not recognize the tail number. I was flying max RPM down the ILS course and he advised me "Citation 460, maintain best speed, please..."
     
    kgruber likes this.
  5. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,834
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Flying a 172 on the approaches at IAD at 120 knots was standard procedure. On short final, pull power, slip hard, drop 10 at 110, 40 at 85 and bring her down. I never missed the first turn off even when I started the slow down at the threshold (it is 4500 feet down and a wide highspeed).

    I once had the controller ask if I could maintain 160 on the approach in the Navion. I told him "until I hit the ground."
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  6. Hacker

    Hacker Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hacker
    How does that impact what I posted?

    Yes, if you are flying a higher speed, you are in a higher category, and you have higher mins because of the TERPS and the clear area for the circle.

    That does not mean that a CAT B aircraft has to fly the approach at the max allowable speed for CAT B, which is what was implied in the post I was replying to originally.
     
  7. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,229
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    You're right. It affects straight-in minimums at some locations with turning missed approaches:

    https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1812/06978r18.pdf

    There are more extreme cases than this one.
     
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,895
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Here’s what the Instrument Flying Handbook has to say...
    Most small airplanes maintain a speed well in excess of 1.3 times VSO on an instrument approach. An airplane with a stall speed of 50 knots (VSO) has a normal approach speed of 65 knots. However, this same airplane may maintain 90 knots (1.8 VSO) while on the final segment of an instrument approach. The landing gear will most likely be extended at the beginning of the descent to the minimum descent altitude, or upon intercepting the glideslope of the instrument landing system. The pilot may also select an intermediate flap setting for this phase of the approach. The airplane at this speed has good positive speed stability, as represented by point A on Figure 4-11. Flying in this regime permits the pilot to make slight pitch changes without changing power settings, and accept minor speed changes knowing that when the pitch is returned to the initial setting, the speed returns to the original setting. This reduces the pilot’s workload.
    Aircraft are usually slowed to a normal landing speed when on the final approach just prior to landing....​
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    IK04 and midlifeflyer like this.
  9. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,306
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Sure you can... But the DPE has to agree to act as PIC, and it's their name on the flight plan.

    I asked the DPE for my instrument checkride if he would be willing to do it in IMC, and he said "If we do it in VMC, you only have to meet PTS standards. If we do it in IMC, you have to meet MY standards."

    I was once coming back to KMSN in an Archer from the north (KAUW or KCWA), and since I was already pretty much on the FAC for the ILS 18, they cleared me for the approach almost as soon as I checked in with Madison Approach, 15-20 miles out. Almost as soon as they had done so, an airliner checked in, and they vectored him nearly back out of their airspace... There was a stiff headwind too, I think I was only getting 70-80 knots GS. When handing me off, they said "Archer 41E, contact tower now, and pedal as fast as you can!" :rofl:
     
    Ravioli and IK04 like this.
  10. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    k9medic
    90 knots is also helpful in the math department and makes it easy to calculate your time when you cross over in the event you lose your GS so you can still do the LOC approach.

    You DO start a timer when you cross right????


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,189
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Not in the past 8 or 9 years (some training scenarios excepted).
     
  12. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,112
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    I once was asked to slow to 80 knots which is on the back side of the power curve for me, when I switch over to tower, they asked me for my best speed?! Rookie controller? Fortunately is was borderline IFR conditions.
     
  13. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    "Losing your GS" could mean it's stuck in the middle, making you think you're the best ILS flyer since Jimmy Doolittle. Multi-tasking with a LOC approach would seem to be good insurance you aren't getting too low too soon.

    EDIT: Or low enough too late. Had it not been for my suspicion the GS needle was stuck and then the middle marker coming on way before minimums, my Captain would have landed our Learjet on the last 1000' of runway 23 in Buffalo, instead of the first 1000', forty years ago. I made him go around and we learned a lesson about glide slope indicators.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  14. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    k9medic
    This is the problem with automation.

    I was taught how to “push the head and pull the tail” as well as to start a clock when shooting an ILS.

    I fully embrace glass cockpit but there are some basics that are just not being taught anymore thanks to GPS.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    IK04 and dtuuri like this.
  15. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,676
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    Must of been in your Lear, because in your avatar Cherokee it wouldn't have been even close.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,189
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I had that happen on an ILS to my home base. GS came in normally and stuck there. Not being Dolittle, I knew there had to be something wrong. Multi-tasking with the LOC (the information was all there even without thinking in terms of switching to it).
    ...Or the benefit of it. I prefer not to push the head or pull the tail of an ADF, or, for that matter, rely on 4-course LF Radio Range. I like ILS better than VOR too. I guess I'm just some young kid with no appreciation for how much better the past was.

    I also used to start a clock all the time on the ILS, but it wasn't to be able to fly the localizer if the GS went away. My preferred answer to the loss of any equipment on an approach is going missed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  17. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,112
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    That’s a Mooney!
     
  18. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,607
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    If you fly outside the US you might.
     
    k9medic likes this.
  19. Jmcmanna

    Jmcmanna Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Southern WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jmcmanna
    Are you sure about that? Don’t tell the approach controllers at O’Hare that they’re doing it wrong then....
     
  20. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,432
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    The OP was flying into ORD?

    Even if he was, if approach screwed up and stacked a LR close behind a 182RG or something, and it’s to the point you need to suck your gear and flaps back up, especially for a student/low instrument time guy, I’d say just keep flying that stabilized approach and let ATC deal with their mistake, don’t get yourself screwed up by their screw up.


    I stand behind what I said if you re-configuring the aircraft at that stage of flight/IAP thats not good, any DPE who would ask you to do that on a check ride it’s not a DPE you want to do a check ride with
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  21. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,676
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag

    STILL wouldn't be behind the power curve!
     
  22. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,112
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Really?! You clearly couldn’t recognize it as Mooney, but now you think you know more about it’s flight characteristics?
     
  23. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,676
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    Not exactly. I have over 1000 hours in various Mooney's, as I was delivery and checkout pilot/instructor for the Mooney dealer at Boeing Field. I also owned N201MW, a 77' 201.

    But you seem to be more knowledgeable????????
     
    KA550 likes this.
  24. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    21,306
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    80 knots actually is behind the power curve in some Mooneys... Like Mine. I don't know what model @teejayevans has or what his L/dmax is, but mine is 91.5 knots.

    Now, 80 knots isn't so far behind it that you have to drag it through the air with the engine. It is still a Mooney, after all, and 80 is still a healthy margin above the stall, so you're still near the bottom of the curve.
     
    MooneyDriver78 likes this.
  25. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,112
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Best glide for the J is 91K....so 90K or less behind the power curve.
     
  26. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    k9medic
    That or you have never flown outside of US airspace.






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Hacker likes this.
  27. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,676
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    KA550, dmspilot, midlifeflyer and 2 others like this.
  28. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
  29. Jmcmanna

    Jmcmanna Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    Southern WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jmcmanna
    I didn’t say he was flying into ORD, I was disputing that more than one aircraft can’t be cleared for an approach at the same time, because they absolutely can be.
     
  30. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,432
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Depends.
    Not into a uncontrolled field.

    Also that doesn’t change anything, he ether should have kept on with his stabilized approach, or gone missed.
     
  31. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    From 10 miles out??
     
  32. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,432
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    From the point you drop gear, which is for most 1 dot off the glide slope or 3nm from the FAF, at that point I’m not swinging my gear back up/changing configuration shy of going missed.
     
  33. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    How about 20 miles out, on the GS? 30? Doesn't range kind of make a difference?
     
  34. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,112
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
  35. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,676
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    Like I said.................you need remedial training!!

    You don't even have a clue as to what L/D means!!!!!!!!!!
     
    KA550 likes this.
  36. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    Those are for jets, ie, thrust levers vs. throttles.
     
  37. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,432
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Think I addressed that.


    1 dot off / 3nm from the FAF
     
  38. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    8,750
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    so maybe he's one dot off?.....o_O
     
  39. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    Well, the OP was 10 miles out and apparently put the wheels down according to your simple rule--then was faced with how silly that rule is and did something about it. As a former DPE, I wouldn't dock him for it.
     
  40. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,432
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    Or 3nm