F150

Henning said:
You just found out a great scam in the auto industry, oil changes. You don't have to change your oil, just the filter when it starts clogging (depends how dusty where you live) and periodic top up with fresh. Your engine doesn't care what the oil looks like or it's properties. The bearings mostly use oil to carry away heat, it's actually the properties of the dissimilar metals that makes the bearing part of it work, not the lubrication. As long as the oil absorbs heat and doesn't carry large solid particles in it, the car will last the same amount of time. Way more likely the car gets totaled than blows an engine anyway. Oil changes on cars are a scam and a waste of money. Just get your engine up to temp most every time you run it and keep enough oil in it and change the filter periodically.
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Should pretty much apply to plane engines too.
 
N747JB said:
Want me to see if I can get you a refund? ;)
I think the 300 six wasn't going to meet the emission standards that were being implemented, but I'm not sure. It was a GREAT engine, good mileage, good torque etc. The new 3.7 V6 is a good motor and the 3.5 V6 Eco Boost is AMAZING. :D
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I have that new V6 Eco Boost in my F-150. Excellent engine and fantastic ride / build quality.
 
mikeinbama said:
unless you have a 7.3 diesel. in which case not changing you oil will cost you 8 injectors faster than you would like. And we will just have to agree to disagree on not changing you oil in other things. I have seen the inside of thousands of engines, some did and some didnt. I could tell the difference and so could most 7th graders.
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First off, that's diesel and has more byproduct contamination issues, however to your point: Can you tell me how the oil effects the injector nozzles? Where do they touch? How does oil protect or wear the injector nozzle?

I ran a tug that had over 100,000hrs on 3 3600hp engines that had never had an oil change. When they were rebuilt everything was still fine. All that ever happened was filters would get changed and additives added as required according to the lab. This was only because we held a couple hundred gallons of oil in each and replenishment with filters didn't add enough back. With a 4-5 quart engine where you replenish 20% of the oil with a filter change, you get the additives back. With unleaded gas with all the alcohol and other additive packages, as long as you keep the oil warm, there aren't that many destructive constituents that hold in the oil. Most all of them evaporate away.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Should pretty much apply to plane engines too.
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NO! AvGas is completely different and has lead in it. Check out what happens when you use crap oil and AV gas, google 'Mobil 1 Aviation oil Continental'. When we took the lead out of gas, we did a lot of great things for our engines.
 
Henning said:
NO! AvGas is completely different and has lead in it. Check out what happens when you use crap oil and AV gas, google 'Mobil 1 Aviation oil Continental'. When we took the lead out of gas, we did a lot of great things for our engines.
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Av gas has very little lead in it now. Many people take advantage of the Mogas STC for their planes (or fly experimental planes with engines that burn Mogas), so thay should net need to chainge their oil, right?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Av gas has very little lead in it now. Many people take advantage of the Mogas STC for their planes (or fly experimental planes with engines that burn Mogas), so thay should net need to chainge their oil, right?
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It's not just the lead. Environmental regulation has changed the formulation of MoGas to be quite dissimilar from AvGas and some of those additives are targeted at neutralizing/eliminating destructive components in the exhaust. All you have to do is take a whiff of either in raw form or exhaust to know they aren't even close to the same thing.

In my planes if they have no filter, oil is 25 hrs, when I have filters it's every 200 hrs or seasonally if I don't fly much. In planes that use a quart every 5 hrs or less and have paper filters and see frequent use, I'd only change the oil at annual.

I don't do anything by dogma, I figure out 'why' then I can modify my actions to meet reality rather than dogma.

Treating all engines the same is just dogmatic action is all.
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
I have that new V6 Eco Boost in my F-150. Excellent engine and fantastic ride / build quality.
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Since I know you're "up here", how does it do up I-70 into the mountains and could you tow something big up there with it? Just curious.
 
Henning said:
It's not just the lead. Environmental regulation has changed the formulation of MoGas to be quite dissimilar from AvGas and some of those additives are targeted at neutralizing/eliminating destructive components in the exhaust. All you have to do is take a whiff of either in raw form or exhaust to know they aren't even close to the same thing.

In my planes if they have no filter, oil is 25 hrs, when I have filters it's every 200 hrs or seasonally if I don't fly much. In planes that use a quart every 5 hrs or less and have paper filters and see frequent use, I'd only change the oil at annual.

I don't do anything by dogma, I figure out 'why' then I can modify my actions to meet reality rather than dogma.

Treating all engines the same is just dogmatic action is all.
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Which destructive components in the exhause are those?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Which destructive components in the exhause are those?
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Sulfuric acid would be the key. Automotive engines also have the greatest advance in gasoline engine durability and longevity that aircraft engins do not, the PCV system. That nearly doubled the life of our automotive engines.
 
Henning said:
Sulfuric acid would be the key. Automotive engines also have the greatest advance in gasoline engine durability and longevity that aircraft engins do not, the PCV system. That nearly doubled the life of our automotive engines.
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Sulfuric acid from where? It certainly isn't from the gasoline. Automobile engines have had crankcase venting since the 1920's. The PVC system was used to reduce smog from unburned hydrocarbons in the crankcase by sending them to the intake stream where another attempt is made to burn them.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Sulfuric acid from where? It certainly isn't from the gasoline. Automobile engines have had crankcase venting since the 1920's. The PVC system was used to reduce smog from unburned hydrocarbons in the crankcase by sending them to the intake stream where another attempt is made to burn them.
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?? Where would it be from then?

PCV was instituted for the purpose you state. In the 4 decades since, we have discovered other benefits from the system that have a great effect on engine durability since it sucks the crankcase fumes out and reburn thems before they condense into the oil or bake onto all the surfaces forming sludge and cake. You can always tell an engine that had a clogged PCV system when you open them up.
 
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Henning said:
?? Where would it be from then?

PCV was instituted for the purpose you state. In the 4 decades since, we have discovered other benefits from the system that have a great effect on engine durability since it sucks the crankcase fumes out and reburn thems before they condense into the oil or bake onto all the surfaces forming sludge and cake. You can always tell an engine that had a clogged PCV system when you open them up.
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There's a number of non-credible sites that claim PCV was invented for tanks so they could make water crossings without getting water into the vent tube.

If the engine had a working vent tube, that junk would leave the engine as it did since the 1920's


As for your claim about sulfur in the gasoline:
  • If the gasoline did have significant sulfur in it, the catalytic convertor would reduce it back to hydrogen sulfide. how many cars have you been behind lately that smelled like rotten eggs? The last one I remember was a couple of decades ago.
  • If the gasoline had sulfur, it would burn too to make sulfur dioxide that blows by the rings with other exhaust gases. It would react with water (from the combustion process) to make sulfuric acid which isn't volatile and would stay in the oil, particularly on cold days or in a cold engine. This would require periodic oil changes to remove which contradict your earlier claim that automobiles don't need oil changes.
  • The sulfur is a poison to catalytic convertors (see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html for mechanism) so they work to remove it from the gasoline.
 
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Henning said:
First off, that's diesel and has more byproduct contamination issues, however to your point: Can you tell me how the oil effects the injector nozzles? Where do they touch? How does oil protect or wear the injector nozzle?

I ran a tug that had over 100,000hrs on 3 3600hp engines that had never had an oil change. When they were rebuilt everything was still fine. All that ever happened was filters would get changed and additives added as required according to the lab. This was only because we held a couple hundred gallons of oil in each and replenishment with filters didn't add enough back. With a 4-5 quart engine where you replenish 20% of the oil with a filter change, you get the additives back. With unleaded gas with all the alcohol and other additive packages, as long as you keep the oil warm, there aren't that many destructive constituents that hold in the oil. Most all of them evaporate away.
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The injectors in a 7.3 are "fired" by high pressure oil. Engine oil runs through the injectors. For that matter all the Ford diesels work that way. Contaminated oil will wreak havoc in the injectors. The 7.3s are particularly bad in that area.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
There's a number of non-credible sites that claim PCV was invented for tanks so they could make water crossings without getting water into the vent tube.
If the engine had a working vent tube, that junk would leave the engine as it did since the 1920's


As for your claim about sulfur in the gasoline:
  • If the gasoline did have significant sulfur in it, the catalytic convertor would reduce it back to hydrogen sulfide. how many cars have you been behind lately that smelled like rotten eggs? The last one I remember was a couple of decades ago.
  • If the gasoline had sulfur, it would burn too to make sulfur dioxide that blows by the rings with other exhaust gases. It would react with water (from the combustion process) to make sulfuric acid which isn't volatile and would stay in the oil, particularly on cold days or in a cold engine. This would require periodic oil changes to remove which contradict your earlier claim that automobiles don't need oil changes.
  • The sulfur is a poison to catalytic convertors (see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html for mechanism) so they work to remove it from the gasoline.
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That's not how PCV systems work, they suck, not blow, and engines still have vents that discharge to the air cleaner/induction to reburn the blow by and also seals the system from water as long as the air intake stays dry.

They reduce sulfer, not eliminate it. The sulfuric acid is why you have to replace your exhaust system. If it wasn't there condensing in your muffler the thing would last a hell of a lot longer. Also why good exhaust systems are made of stainless steel.
 
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Henning said:
That's not how PCV systems work, they suck, not blow, and engines still have vents that discharge to the air cleaner/induction to reburn the blow by.

They reduce sulfer, not eliminate it. The sulfuric acid is why you have to replace your exhaust system. If it wasn't there condensing in your muffler the thing would last a hell of a lot longer. Also why good exhaust systems are made of stainless steel.
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Who, besides you, said anything about sucking or blowing???

You may want to read my post again. If there were sulphur, it would accumulate in the crank case like the other combustion products. It would also poison the catalytic convertor, I even gave you a link for that! The water and carbon dioxide from the exhaust (together they make carbonic acid) would be sufficient to rust cheap exhaust systems.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Who, besides you, said anything about sucking or blowing???
You may want to read my post again. If there were sulphur, it would accumulate in the crank case like the other combustion products. It would also poison the catalytic convertor, I even gave you a link for that! The water and carbon dioxide from the exhaust (together they make carbonic acid) would be sufficient to rust cheap exhaust systems.
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:confused::confused::confused::confused: Read the part about the tanks and the reason you quoted. How else would the PCV system prevent the intrusion of water into the cranckcase?
 
Henning said:
:confused::confused::confused::confused: Read the part about the tanks and the reason you quoted. How else would the PCV system prevent the intrusion of water into the cranckcase?
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I didn't quote it and indicated the references weren't credible. I guess you don't read very well?

Even so, you are caught up in PCV, but don't address where the sulfur comes from that you claim exists. It's well known that sulfur in fuel ruins catalytic convertors, so it was removed from gasoline.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I didn't quote it and indicated the references weren't credible. I guess you don't read very well?

Even so, you are caught up in PCV, but don't address where the sulfur comes from that you claim exists. It's well known that sulfur in fuel ruins catalytic convertors, so it was removed from gasoline.
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I'm interested in your motivation in bringing the reference you cited into play to begin with. If you didn't believe, why mention it?:confused::dunno:

Do you believe the gasoline in your car is free from sulfur?
 
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Henning said:
I'm interested in your motivation in bringing the reference you cited into play to begin with. If you didn't believe, why mention it?:confused::dunno:

Do you believe the gasoline in your car is free from sulfur?
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Yes, I do believe the gas in my car has verry little sulfur (about 30 ppm- it's difficult to remove every atom and not cost effective). The oil companies really don't want the bad press for ruining catalytic convertors.

Gasoline and diesel fuels contain sulfur as part of their chemical makeup. Sulfuric acid is produced when sulfur combines with water vapor formed during the combustion process, and some of this corrosive compound is emitted into the atmosphere through the exhaust.
Sulfuric acid is a major environmental pollutant, coming back to earth in contaminated rainwater. This 'acid rain' has been responsible for destroying or degrading vast areas of arable land.
As a result, the removal of sulfur from motor fuels has become a major part of most countries vehicle emission control programs.
High sulfur levels in fuel, when combined with water vapor, can also cause corrosive wear on valve guides and cylinder liners, which can lead to premature engine failure. The use of proper lubricants and correct oil drain intervals helps combat this effect and reduces the degree of corrosive damage.
Sulfur reduces catalyst efficiency in modern vehicles, and vehicles operating with higher sulfur gasoline have higher emissions than vehicles operating on lower sulfur gasoline.
There is evidence that in some instances, sulfur in gasoline may degrade the performance of oxygen sensors, which may also result in high emissions. High sulfur levels in gasoline may also impair the performance of OBD II systems on some vehicles.
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Ref: http://www.cdxetextbook.com/fuelSys/emission/types/sulfurcontent.html


several points here:
  • Sulfur damages catalytic convertors, as well as oxygen sensors (I mentioned that earlier)
  • Sulfur is removed from fuels to reduce emissions
  • Sulfur reacts with water to corrode engines, the damage is reduced by changing your oil, you reduce damage. This contradicts the post below:
Henning said:
You just found out a great scam in the auto industry, oil changes. You don't have to change your oil, just the filter when it starts clogging (depends how dusty where you live) and periodic top up with fresh. Your engine doesn't care what the oil looks like or it's properties. The bearings mostly use oil to carry away heat, it's actually the properties of the dissimilar metals that makes the bearing part of it work, not the lubrication. As long as the oil absorbs heat and doesn't carry large solid particles in it, the car will last the same amount of time. Way more likely the car gets totaled than blows an engine anyway. Oil changes on cars are a scam and a waste of money. Just get your engine up to temp most every time you run it and keep enough oil in it and change the filter periodically.
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The amount of sulfur in gasoline is small- parts per million- The average amount of sulfur in gasoline in the USA is 30 ppm (ref: http://assets.nationaljournal.com/pdf/Inhofe Tier 3 Draft Letter.pdf )
 
Henning said:
Do you still believe you exhaust does not contain sulfuric acid?
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The amount is certainly small enough to disprove this contention:
Henning said:
Sulfuric acid would be the key. Automotive engines also have the greatest advance in gasoline engine durability and longevity that aircraft engins do not, the PCV system. That nearly doubled the life of our automotive engines.
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30 PPM sulfur. That's all. You get more acid from the carbon dioxide and water that combine to make carbonic acid in your tailpipe.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The amount is certainly small enough to disprove this contention:


30 PPM sulfur. That's all. You get more acid from the carbon dioxide and water that combine to make carbonic acid in your tailpipe.
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Excellent, you just listed another damaging component of exhaust gas.
 
Kids... Kids....... You will be sent to your rooms without dinner if you don't chill out.;):lol:..

Cap't Jack is pretty damn sharp on chemistry.... probably better then anyone on this site.:yesnod::yesnod:

Henning is a die hard motorhead who I would trust over just about any other person in regards to internal combustion engines

Fact is there are multiple corrosive gases present is an exhaust stream.. To single anyone out is like splitting hairs... It can be done .. but you better have a VERY sharp razorblade.... :yesnod::).

Now... shake hands and make up... Please.:wink2:
 
denverpilot said:
Since I know you're "up here", how does it do up I-70 into the mountains and could you tow something big up there with it? Just curious.
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Not a problem AT ALL. If you haven't watched Ford's Torture Test video series for the Eco Boost, here's the link (click "Get Started" on the left hand "Torture Test" panel):

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150/?section=torture:home/

They did all this on one production engine. For you, at least watch "Hauling Timber" and "Head to Head", though the entire series is impressive.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Not a problem AT ALL. If you haven't watched Ford's Torture Test video series for the Eco Boost, here's the link (click "Get Started" on the left hand "Torture Test" panel):

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150/?section=torture:home/

They did all this on one production engine. For you, at least watch "Hauling Timber" and "Head to Head", though the entire series is impressive.
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Just watched it all, wish I had one, I'll wait about 10 years and buy yours :)

I wonder what all they did to the engine during that...if any accessories were replaced, etc..etc.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Not a problem AT ALL. If you haven't watched Ford's Torture Test video series for the Eco Boost, here's the link (click "Get Started" on the left hand "Torture Test" panel):

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150/?section=torture:home/

They did all this on one production engine. For you, at least watch "Hauling Timber" and "Head to Head", though the entire series is impressive.
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I think they should let my mom drive it. That woman has killed more cars than the cash for clunkers program
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Not a problem AT ALL. If you haven't watched Ford's Torture Test video series for the Eco Boost, here's the link (click "Get Started" on the left hand "Torture Test" panel):

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150/?section=torture:home/

They did all this on one production engine. For you, at least watch "Hauling Timber" and "Head to Head", though the entire series is impressive.
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Ford IT Department: FAIL.

4174f10e-81e8-2c45.jpg
 
TangoWhiskey said:
That's either an Apple iOS / Steve Jobs fail, or a marketing department fail. The IT department did their job correctly.
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Nope. They set up a Marketing website that doesn't play videos to a VERY large mobile user base. Something like 2 billion now? That's a FAIL. IT should have disapproved the project, which was probably outsourced.

There are PLENTY of video standards that work across EVERY platform. And it's bog simple to detect browser type and redirect to a non-Flash page with a list of available content. They could have a quick fix for it in 48 hours if they tried hard. A month if they're buried in their own internal bureaucracy.

There are really inexpensive companies who'll take the heavy hitter work of re-encoding off their hands if they don't want to do that too. Even us silly cheap podcasters know how to hire LibSyn, upload a file once, and let experts handle the re-encoding, RSS feed, and various distribution methods.

A company the size of Ford certainly has someone somewhere who can write a shell script and fire off a re-encoder each time Marketing uploads a new video.

Seeing a Flash only site these days screams "we don't know how to do online media" louder than anything at this point.
 
denverpilot said:
Nope. They set up a Marketing website that doesn't play videos to a VERY large mobile user base. Something like 2 billion now? That's a FAIL. IT should have disapproved the project, which was probably outsourced.

There are PLENTY of video standards that work across EVERY platform. And it's bog simple to detect browser type and redirect to a non-Flash page with a list of available content. They could have a quick fix for it in 48 hours if they tried hard. A month if they're buried in their own internal bureaucracy.

There are really inexpensive companies who'll take the heavy hitter work of re-encoding off their hands if they don't want to do that too. Even us silly cheap podcasters know how to hire LibSyn, upload a file once, and let experts handle the re-encoding, RSS feed, and various distribution methods.

A company the size of Ford certainly has someone somewhere who can write a shell script and fire off a re-encoder each time Marketing uploads a new video.

Seeing a Flash only site these days screams "we don't know how to do online media" louder than anything at this point.
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Meh. Personally I care more about their ability to build a truck then I do a website.
 
jesse said:
Meh. Personally I care more about their ability to build a truck then I do a website.
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It's all indicative of how well they manage their business. If they can't figure out how to hire website experts...

Not saying other companies are much better. My own employer is stupidly paying another company to host the main website on a single non-redundant server somewhere in some tiny company's hall closet because the Marketing and IT leadership don't get along. Ha. Sad. We techies could get it done. "Leadership" can't. Define, "Lame". They've got some battle going on.

I'd happily take whatever they paid this company as additional salary and buy the servers myself. There'd be plenty left over. Probably could get a new Aspen out of that deal.

The really funny reaction during a recent cutover and change to the site IP on their end was our newest Windows admin -- when he heard who was hosting it -- immediately started begging off of the cutover meeting.

When the boss said "why?" he said they'd recognize his name. Boss pressed harder...

"At a former employer I was responsible for them getting the pants sued off of them for non-performance and a key witness in the case. They also hijacked our business website with a false non-payment announcement. I had the site running on our own server in 30 minutes because they only took down the front page. I downloaded the rest of the site from links in a cached copy of the front page. We won a lot of money from them including our legal fees and damages. I'd never do business with those idiots ever again. Who hired them?!"

Bwahaha. Pure awesome. We made sure he wasn't on the meeting.

And had a good laugh about Marketing hiring the closet company, since that's not going to change as long as the higher-ups can't get along. LOL. $20 some Marketing persons kid works at that place. I'm not going to go get between momma and her cub.

But I will keep a regularly updated backup copy of the website stashed away somewhere. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
It's all indicative of how well they manage their business. If they can't figure out how to hire website experts...

Not saying other companies are much better. My own employer is stupidly paying another company to host the main website on a single non-redundant server somewhere in some tiny company's hall closet because the Marketing and IT leadership don't get along. Ha. Sad. We techies could get it done. "Leadership" can't. Define, "Lame". They've got some battle going on.

I'd happily take whatever they paid this company as additional salary and buy the servers myself. There'd be plenty left over. Probably could get a new Aspen out of that deal.

The really funny reaction during a recent cutover and change to the site IP on their end was our newest Windows admin -- when he heard who was hosting it -- immediately started begging off of the cutover meeting.

When the boss said "why?" he said they'd recognize his name. Boss pressed harder...

"At a former employer I was responsible for them getting the pants sued off of them for non-performance and a key witness in the case. They also hijacked our business website with a false non-payment announcement. I had the site running on our own server in 30 minutes because they only took down the front page. I downloaded the rest of the site from links in a cached copy of the front page. We won a lot of money from them including our legal fees and damages. I'd never do business with those idiots ever again. Who hired them?!"

Bwahaha. Pure awesome. We made sure he wasn't on the meeting.

And had a good laugh about Marketing hiring the closet company, since that's not going to change as long as the higher-ups can't get along. LOL. $20 some Marketing persons kid works at that place. I'm not going to go get between momma and her cub.

But I will keep a regularly updated backup copy of the website stashed away somewhere. ;)
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At my former employer we had to tell the CFO that we bought the software the company ran on from a third party, he loved it. Had we told him that it was the product of a multi-year development effort done 100% in house, he would have freaked because he didn't like the VP of IT. He must have thought we got one hell of a deal on the software because he thought we got it in a package deal with some simple document scanning system we bought. A large part of having outside vendors do a job you could easily do in house is having a neck to choke for the day to day stuff you don't want to deal with. Sort of like why I hire someone to mow my lawn.
 
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I love watching the ebb and flow of thread drifts.
 
Yeah. Sorry.

Speaking of drift...

How well does an F150 drift, anyway? ;)

I don't think I ever got a chance to try sliding either of mine sideways. ;)
 
At the risk of raining on your parade, DO NOT modify the EcoBoost engine or any other Ford engine with a tuner or programmer, even exhaust systems can be a no-no. I'm sure these products are great, BUT, they can void your warranty. :yikes: A few years ago, the factories turned other way, now they will deny the claims and in many cases void the warranty on the drivetrain. I'm not sure how GM is handling it, but Ford is cracking down. I know you can remove the programmers before bringing them into the shop, but evidence remains in the processor!:mad2: Just about every diesel truck on the road had a "chip" in it with no warranty issues, but times have changed.:dunno:


TangoWhiskey said:
For those of you driving F-150 Eco Boost engines, check this out:

http://staceydavid.com/episodes/boosting-ford-eco-boost-buffing-nasty-paint-back-life

My father-in-law alerted me to this program he saw on TV today; it's all about taking that V6 EcoBoost and getting MORE power AND better fuel economy with a few simple aftermarket changes.
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Nate, I'll send a couple emails on Monday, no excuse for not having iPad compatible videos!:mad2::mad2:
 
N747JB said:
At the risk of raining on your parade, DO NOT modify the EcoBoost engine or any other Ford engine with a tuner or programmer, even exhaust systems can be a no-no. I'm sure these products are great, BUT, they can void your warranty. :yikes: A few years ago, the factories turned other way, now they will deny the claims and in many cases void the warranty on the drivetrain. I'm not sure how GM is handling it, but Ford is cracking down. I know you can remove the programmers before bringing them into the shop, but evidence remains in the processor!:mad2: Just about every diesel truck on the road had a "chip" in it with no warranty issues, but times have changed.:dunno:
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I never figured out the guys with the Dodge Diesels that would chip them up and all this other stuff for towing loads. I told them they were nuts, as delivered from the factory the engine was able to break every transmission they put behind it, why add more power/fuel to the situation?
 
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