Exposing loved ones to the risks associated with GA

Bonchie said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Every method I've seen to try to correlate a comparison is shaky at best and full of caveats depending on the kind of flying you actually do, where you fly, and what you fly.
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I think you and I must have different ideas about how large a "ballpark" is.

Meh, I don't feel the ethical need to give passengers a "dangers of flying light GA" speech unless they ask about it. If they do, I'll answer as best I can and also tell them how we are mitigating risk to avoid the most common causes of fatal accidents. I tend to believe that flying is largely as safe as you make it outside of a few unavoidable situations. I feel like I'm more proactive in mitigating risk by believing that then dwelling on very imperfect statistical comparisons and just hoping for the best.
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I'm not the one who started the thread. I'm just commenting on the topic.
 
I just took my neighbors kids up this morning, in a rental no less. And I just got back in the left seat after a five year hiatus. I must be nuts....
 
C-1 PILOT said:
I just took my neighbors kids up this morning, in a rental no less. And I just got back in the left seat after a five year hiatus. I must be nuts....
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You must have massive cajones to be flying those death traps around!
 
By age isn't motor vehicle accidents one of the top 5 causes of accidental death of children? The top cause for infants is what? Drowning? Do you avoid taking your kids to friends house with a pool? Everyone just straps the kids in the car and grills by the pool and accepts the risks without second thought.

I see road deaths almost every day in the news in Lincoln Nebraska, but I guess I'm desensitized by it because I never think about them when I get in the car.

When I fly, especially with passengers, I take the risks seriously and do my best to have a plan if things don't go well. I can't say I drive nearly as careful but still better than most of those around me in traffic.
 
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Datadriver said:
Motorcycle travel, which is 35x more dangerous than driving is a good definition of dangerous.
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Holy smokes...it's really 35x more dangerous? I find that hard to believe honestly
 
Datadriver said:
Motorcycle travel, which is 35x more dangerous than driving is a good definition of dangerous.
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35x sounds high to me, care to cite your source? Anyway, like flying, riding a bike is about having good skills, good judgement, good risk management, and well maintained equipment/gear. I have 32 years on bikes now, and stopped counting miles on two wheels years ago when I past 500kmi. Still here, they still haven't gotten me yet[1], and I still enjoy the hell out of riding. I was just on a four day 1500mi backroads ride up through the VA and WV mountains, good times!

[1] Yes, yes, I know, my number could come up tomorrow.
 
Bill Jennings said:
35x sounds high to me, care to cite your source? Anyway, like flying, riding a bike is about having good skills, good judgement, good risk management, and well maintained equipment/gear. I have 32 years on bikes now, and stopped counting miles on two wheels years ago when I past 500kmi. Still here, they still haven't gotten me yet[1], and I still enjoy the hell out of riding. I was just on a four day 1500mi backroads ride up through the VA and WV mountains, good times!

[1] Yes, yes, I know, my number could come up tomorrow.
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Motorcycles are actually 24x more dangerous, not 35x when using per 100m miles driven (which I guess is the best barometer?). Most attempts at correlating driving a car to flying come in around 16x from what I've seen.

One thing that bnt83 mentions above that's true is that even though driving is safer on a per mile basis, almost everyone drives much more then they fly. So you are actually more likely to lose a child in a car wreck due to quantity of use than you are to a few hours of general aviation a month (my kids may fly 15 hours a year with me, if that).

Driving is more of a necessity I suppose though.
 
Take the family in the car? screeeeech BAM!
Public transportation? Muggings, robbery, rape, murder.
Got gas service to your house? BOOM!
Kids in school? Diseases, bullying, assorted vermin.
Take the family to the doctor? Doctors kill more people than guns.
Nothing in this life is safe.

Honestly, if you're afraid to take people up in your plane, maybe YOU shouldn't be up in the plane. I'm not a shrink, but it sounds like transference.
It's not a condemnation, it's an observation.
 
Shepherd said:
Take the family in the car? screeeeech BAM!
Public transportation? Muggings, robbery, rape, murder.
Got gas service to your house? BOOM!
Kids in school? Diseases, bullying, assorted vermin.
Take the family to the doctor? Doctors kill more people than guns.
Nothing in this life is safe.

Honestly, if you're afraid to take people up in your plane, maybe YOU shouldn't be up in the plane. I'm not a shrink, but it sounds like transference.
It's not a condemnation, it's an observation.
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Palmpilot said:
The public perception is that GA is a relatively dangerous mode of travel. I don't think we're likely to change that perception without data. And as an engineer, I have found that ball-park data are better than no data at all.
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The mass public would eat their own poop if no one told the better.
 
Shepherd said:
Take the family in the car? screeeeech BAM!
Public transportation? Muggings, robbery, rape, murder.
Got gas service to your house? BOOM!
Kids in school? Diseases, bullying, assorted vermin.
Take the family to the doctor? Doctors kill more people than guns.
Nothing in this life is safe.

Honestly, if you're afraid to take people up in your plane, maybe YOU shouldn't be up in the plane. I'm not a shrink, but it sounds like transference.
It's not a condemnation, it's an observation.
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Everything you said is true; but some of those are harder to avoid than others. Like gas going to my house, yes I could try to avoid that, but realistically it's all around me, even if my house stopped getting it. School, gotta do it, not ready to homeschool... doctor, gotta do it.

Flying? Easily avoidable, just like taking the kids on a motorcycle. If I really wanted to, I could take the kids riding on a motorcycle every day, and odds are nothing will happen to us. Why am I so scared? I have never crashed a street bike on the street, I'm at 0% crashes (I have crashed at race tracks, just for the record). Oh crap, yes I did, when I was 14 years old, no license, lost control, had no idea what I was doing. I should say, since obtaining legal status to ride a motorcycle, no street crashes.

So I think it's about exposure to things one wouldn't realistically have to expose their kids to. Flying a plane is risky, yes, like lots of things; but I don't have to expose my kids to that risk, and I suffer no hardships to avoid this risk.

Just like motorcycles, more risky than cars, but we could argue that I should just go hide my head instead of trying to avoid taking my kids on motorcycle rides. Some people will say that it's just not worth the risk of exposing their kid(s) to danger that could easily be avoided. Both are right.

So I feel like nobody needs a shrink (well, maybe some do, but that's neither here nor there); if a guy chooses to not expose his kids to realistically unnecessary risk, let that guy be happy in his decision, it hurts nobody else. Just like a guy who is competent and confident, let him be happy in his decision as well. We can all look at past incidents (family members dead, and family members alive) and make our own decisions.
 
Shepherd said:
Honestly, if you're afraid to take people up in your plane, maybe YOU shouldn't be up in the plane. I'm not a shrink, but it sounds like transference.
It's not a condemnation, it's an observation.
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I think we are trying to balance the decision on informing passengers vs fighting their assumptions that GA is just as safe as commercial air travel. If you say something like, "Hey wanna go fly with me? It's 20x as dangerous as flying" that might be a little extreme. If you say something like "Hey wanna go fly? I'm up to date on currency, my airplane is top-notch, and if we run into a problem we can just set it down in a field" might be a little better. No one wants to be alarmist, we are just trying to be responsible.
 
Shepherd said:
Take the family in the car? screeeeech BAM!
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I was hit by a drunk driver once... got a helicopter ride out of it and am damn lucky to be alive.

Shepherd said:
Take the family to the doctor? Doctors kill more people than guns.
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Went in for a small procedure once. Was supposed to take less than 30 minutes, but doc did wrong procedure and then went about screwing up even that one. I bled out, stopped breathing and had to have an emergency surgery to survive (thankfully done by a different doctor). Again, am damn lucky to be alive.

So you are not wrong about those things. You certainly aren't wrong that there are risks everywhere we turn and in most things we do. That's a big part of why I finally bit the bullet and went for my private pilot cert. Life is short and all that.

BUT - flying is my thing... it's another risk I am choosing to personally add to my life. If other adults want to go up with me, knowing full well that I'm barely a year past checkride, totally fine. I'm not going to quote them statistics or otherwise hold their hands... they are old enough to know and understand it's not a risk-free thing. When it comes to kids - especially my own, that's a different story. I do hope to take them up one day, but only once I have more experience under my belt and only then only if it is something they are actually interested in doing. And only if it's something my husband is OK with. I'm not going to take them up, and therefor add further risk to their already risky world, just to amuse myself and make me happy.
 
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My wife loves to fly... doesn't do well if I leave her behind, so when I fly she is usually there... I've told her about the risks and what I do to mitigate them so she is well informed about the risks and continues to fly. She is a grownup and has evidently made her informed decision... That said, I still worry about her safety... I fly and I accept the risks (including the ones I may stupidly introduce myself)... The part I worry about is her suffering from any of my shortcomings... But dam it's fun! And more so with her there...
 
I'd be concerned if a pilot didn't consider the responsibility carefully. This endeavor isn't necessary for a happy or full life (at least for most of the population). Having said that, I gladly fly friends and family because I know I've done and continue to do my part to make it acceptably safe (i.e. maintain the airplane to the highest standard, fly in good weather, keep proficient, etc).
 
My approach is that if someone is reluctant to fly with me, I don't try to talk them into it. If they ask me whether it's safe, I summarize what I know about it. Based on data I've seen in this thread and elsewhere, I guess I would say that on average, it's more dangerous than riding in a car but safer than riding a motorcycle. I would also point out that many GA accidents involve pilots doing dumb stuff, and that I will do my utmost to avoid doing anything stupid.
 
Datadriver said:
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810990
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Thanks. Looks like just not riding drunk can greatly reduce your fatality risk on a bike. Every time I hear of a late night bike fatality I know almost for certain someone was drinking. I personally have a zero alcohol rule when riding, I just wont touch the stuff, not even one beer.

Cajun_Flyer said:
I was hit by a drunk driver once... got a helicopter ride out of it and am damn lucky to be alive.

...

I bled out, stopped breathing and had to have an emergency surgery to survive (thankfully done by a different doctor). Again, am damn lucky to be alive.
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Damn, maybe we should call you Cajun_Cat_Flyer, looks like you have seven lives left. Be careful out there!
 
Bill Jennings said:
Damn, maybe we should call you Cajun_Cat_Flyer, looks like you have seven lives left. Be careful out there!
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Well, everything seems to happen in threes in my world, so I'm kinda worried next time is gonna be the final time! I live life accordingly ;)
 
CC268 said:
Do you ever feel guilty about the risk you might be exposing them to?
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No

Why should I? I didn't stick a gun to their head and make them come flying with me. Its possible my risk-meter is broken, being a skydiver and such, but I really don't worry about it. If I worried about it THAT much, I think I'd sell my plane and give up flying.
 
Well, I am one to get off the couch daily and go live life, and my (2) kids have taken after me. I fly my family regularly in our Comanche to our 2nd house in AZ where we go boating, wakeboarding and dirt bike riding. I guess all dangerous activities to some. I feel much safer flying in the plane than driving on the freeway with the weaving truckers, and texting drivers.

We also fly to the mountains where we snowboard and ski. I live and fly in the SW, which is mountainous. I am very familiar with DA and mountain flying concerns.

When visiting Maui, we took a helo tour of the island and volcano. Survived and loved the experience.

My kids have been certified scuba divers since in their teen years - my daughter since age 12. My son and I once dove with sharks (albeit only white tip reef sharks). I have taught them to sail boats and windsurf in oceans.

I fly a HP/complex airplane, have an IR, acro training, and EMT (Emergency Maneuver Training) and fly at least every 7 to 10 days. I also stay ahead of mx on my plane. I don't cut corners. I have diverted trips due to wx. One trip, was with 3 other buddies for a pro football game. Because of my decision to divert, we missed the first half of the game. They and their wives thanked me.

I am cautious, conservative and deliberate in all of my activities to minimize risk, but risk is all part of life, as I choose to live it. My biggest fear this year, is going back out on the basketball court after surviving a heart attack while playing basketball last year (genetics got me - I am healthy 6'3, 199lbs, and very active). I have faced that fear, and don't let that stop me. I manage the risk and the fear by staying informed and in shape. The cardios and even the FAA say that I am safe to fly and continue my active lifestyle.

Driving stats have changed radically since the distraction of texting has become so much more prevalent. I think that has also made me feel safer in the plane.

I consider all of the risks when including anyone with me in my endeavors. My wife has decided that she is no longer comfortable with much of it but still prefers flying in our plane over most other means of travel. So, do my kids. No one ever has to do what I do and they know it, especially when it comes to flying. I think about it all the time. If I have a doubt, I won't go.
 
Many, many years ago my sister was going to come fly with me. She asked if it was safe. I told her there is always a risk, but safe overall.
She opted out of the flight.
 
Most of us don't live just to be breathing, we live for the experiences in hopes that once we become too old and frail to do new things we at least have a lifetime of great memories to share with others. A lot of these experiences carry risk with them.

For adults it's pretty easy, you tell them the truth as best you understand it and let them make their own choice. For kids it's largely up to the parent but if you are the parent I'm going to put it like this; would you want to have been the kid who never got to find out what it was like to go fly because there was a risk?

Sure, wait for a perfect VFR day with minimal wind/turbulence. Be more risk avoidant than you might otherwise be but kids these days miss out on so much the previous generations got to do because we've now decided it's not safe enough. Don't take that away from them because of your own fear of feeling guilty over a hypothetical accident. Just fly careful, fly your best, and make the kid's day.
 
Datadriver said:
Motorcycle travel, which is 35x more dangerous than driving is a good definition of dangerous.
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I believe it was Private Pilot magazine that did a study on general aviation safety many years ago. It was interesting. They started the article talking about how pilots say the most dangerous part of a flight is the drive to the airport. That is true if you're an airline pilot, not if you're a general aviation pilot. Their conclusion was, per hour, flying is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. Think of the number of motorcycle accidents you hear about per year, but there are many thousand more motorcycle riders than private pilots, and many more who ride more than the standard 40 hours/year average a private pilot flies.

I believe I'm a safe pilot, but most of the planes on the market are from the 70s or older. Mine is from the 40s. We're not all driving around in 70s cars. You have to decide if you're comfortable with the risks to yourself and to your passengers. Think about the reliability of the engines. What if you had to overhaul your engine in your daily driver every 2000 hours? How many people do you know who have had an aviation accident or an engine failure? I know a lot, and I am one of them. I've had two complete engine failures (both in planes I was renting or borrowing), one of them I landed safely and one I crashed. I'm about a 5,000 hour pilot.

Not saying I'm going to quit flying, I accept the risks. I don't kid myself that I'm safer when flying than in a car though. I accept the risks that I can't control and take careful precautions to prevent the ones I can.
 
mtuomi said:
I thought the piston engine failure rate was something like once every 25000 flight hours or something like that. So it's extremely unlikely to happen to an average GA pilot.
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Be careful what you are counting. A snapped crankshaft is an engine failure. Lots of other examples, too... but be sure you are not counting fuel starvation/exhaustion as engine failures, too... -Skip
 
Lowflynjack said:
I believe it was Private Pilot magazine that did a study on general aviation safety many years ago. It was interesting. They started the article talking about how pilots say the most dangerous part of a flight is the drive to the airport. That is true if you're an airline pilot, not if you're a general aviation pilot. Their conclusion was, per hour, flying is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle. Think of the number of motorcycle accidents you hear about per year, but there are many thousand more motorcycle riders than private pilots, and many more who ride more than the standard 40 hours/year average a private pilot flies.

I believe I'm a safe pilot, but most of the planes on the market are from the 70s or older. Mine is from the 40s. We're not all driving around in 70s cars. You have to decide if you're comfortable with the risks to yourself and to your passengers. Think about the reliability of the engines. What if you had to overhaul your engine in your daily driver every 2000 hours? How many people do you know who have had an aviation accident or an engine failure? I know a lot, and I am one of them. I've had two complete engine failures (both in planes I was renting or borrowing), one of them I landed safely and one I crashed. I'm about a 5,000 hour pilot.

Not saying I'm going to quit flying, I accept the risks. I don't kid myself that I'm safer when flying than in a car though. I accept the risks that I can't control and take careful precautions to prevent the ones I can.
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Sad face...I guess us pilots are just risky dudes with balls of steel
 
I have to admit it seems alarming how many engine failures there are...2 in 5000 hours...wow
 
CC268 said:
I have to admit it seems alarming how many engine failures there are...2 in 5000 hours...wow
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That's just bad luck.

Estimated total general aviation hours per year divided by reported failures puts it at about one every 34,000 hours. And even by the numbers posted by our resident statistician, only 6% of C172 engine outs result in fatalities. It

I realize your concern, but you are going to drive yourself nuts convincing yourself that flying is more dangerous than it actually is. There's enough actual risk to concern yourself with without having to worry about what's not real.

Go fly. Enjoy yourself.
 
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Bonchie said:
That's just bad luck.

Estimated total general aviation hours per year divided by reported failures puts it at about one every 34,000 hours. And even by the numbers posted by our resident statistician, only 6% of C172 engine outs result in fatalities. It

I realize your concern, but you are going to drive yourself nuts convincing yourself that flying is more dangerous than it actually is. There's enough actual risk to concern yourself with without having to worry about what's not real.

Go fly. Enjoy yourself.
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No don't get me wrong...this whole thread wasn't meant to about me but rather my concern of taking others up. Exposing others to relatively high risk. But I totally understand what your saying.

Unfortunately there are a lot of different opinions on here...some say it's not as risky as you think and others say it is every bit as risky if not more risky than you think.
 
ShipInHarbor1.jpg
 
Bonchie said:
You are using 11 year old statistics. The most recent number is 22.6x.

Driving is 1.12 deaths per 100m miles, motorcycles are 25.38 deaths per 100m miles.
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It sounds like I am bashing all the motorcycle enthusiasts - not my aim.

Flying does have the tremendous advantage of separation between vehicles(aircraft). Midairs are rare, it's those other vehicles on the road when driving that cause the accidents...
 
Lowflynjack said:
They started the article talking about how pilots say the most dangerous part of a flight is the drive to the airport. That is true if you're an airline pilot, not if you're a general aviation pilot.
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My CFII used to say that all the time. Then last summer he had his first ever incident in 20 years of flying... twin engine with loss of power on climb out. The plane suffered "substantial" damage (NTSB report), but he and his student (also a CFII) survived. A couple months after the crash, I asked him if he still felt that the most dangerous part of flying is driving to the airport. He said his family asked him the same thing and admitting having to think about it for a while. Ultimately, though, he still feels that way.

I've seen and studied the statistics, and given thought to the reasons behind the numbers. I disagree that the skies are safer than the roads, but also understand that most incidents - no matter where they take place - are caused by the one in control of whatever machine they are operating. That's likely more true in a plane than a car, where texting, drunk or otherwise idiotic people aren't creating hazards everywhere. But still.

For me, being a new, low hour (~120 hrs or so) pilot who doesn't have the luxury of excess time/money to fly as frequently as I would like, I'd say I'm probably still safer on the road than in the sky. Until I feel otherwise, my kids won't be flying with me.

Given that I once lived in a place where kids literally had to beg for food to survive, I disagree that I am in some way depriving my otherwise very privileged children. I am being their parent - not their friend, and making the decisions I believe are best for them at this time.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
My CFII used to say that all the time. Then last summer he had his first ever incident in 20 years of flying... twin engine with loss of power on climb out. The plane suffered "substantial" damage (NTSB report), but he and his student (also a CFII) survived. A couple months after the crash, I asked him if he still felt that the most dangerous part of flying is driving to the airport. He said his family asked him the same thing and admitting having to think about it for a while. Ultimately, though, he still feels that way.
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Yeah, it was one of those sayings that caught on, but wasn't true. I still think flying is safe for me, but even with his incident, he has to honestly compare all of the hours he's flown and had one incident, to all of the hours he's driven and how many accidents he's had. If we flew as many hours as we drive, the accident rate in aviation would skyrocket.
 
Lowflynjack said:
If we flew as many hours as we drive, the accident rate in aviation would skyrocket.
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Disagree. The numbers might skyrocket, but I bet the *rate* would go down, because people would be flying a lot more and better in control of their aircraft.
 
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