Engine out on takeoff.. troubleshoot or secure

[Smashandgo]

One suggestion to try if you're flying a fuel injected engine before you give up the ghost and fly it into the crash, is to pull the mixture way back.

Met a Mooney pilot who had some type of fuel system malfunction where the fuel flow went super rich and the engine, while creating a black exhaust trail, was running extremely rough. He pulled the mixture way back and it smoothed out considerably. Not running great, but acceptable enough to return to the departure runway and land.

Looking back through this thread, @MauleSkinner hit the nail on the head. If you are going to tumble, secure. If not there isn’t anything wrong with troubleshooting until the flare. Nothing comes before airspeed and going towards where you will be landing (aviate).

I have thought of this even in a carbureted engine. Maybe the float sticks or something of that nature, a leaner mixture setting could help. I don’t want to give myself false hope and prioritize troubleshooting over flying, but like in the example you gave, it worked.

 

[Racerx]

I think this discussion really underestimates how much brain power it will take to focus on not dying. In Cherokee six at best glide you're sinking at 1800-2000 fpm. At 500 feet, you're not doing alot of what's been discussed when it's real.

 

[Rick A]

I think this discussion really underestimates how much brain power it will take to focus on not dying. In Cherokee six at best glide you're sinking at 1800-2000 fpm. At 500 feet, you're not doing any of that when it's real.

Absolutely, and the lower the altitude when a serious emergency occurs, the more the brain is focused on pure survival. Guaranteed. Training is what you instinctively fall back upon to stay alive.

In IMC conditions close to the ground, the truth of training is even more valid (if that's even possible). During my most frightening flying experience, the brain was working so hard I still can't remember most of the low altitude portion of a sudden and unexpected life threatening emergency.

Been informed by an alleged expert witness that testifies in court for police officers who've been involved in shootings, that a majority of people react to an extreme adrenaline dump with the high stress portion of the event happening and remembered as occurring in slow motion, and timing is not reliable. A lesser amount of people experience it with a permanent memory loss for most or all of it, because the brain used up the space allotted for memory in order to survive. I'm in the memory loss group.

Submitted an article to Air Facts about it and admittedly took some well-deserved flack in the comment section: https://airfactsjournal.com/2024/04/my-near-death-experience/

 

[Daleandee]

I think this discussion really underestimates how much brain power it will take to focus on not dying.

A few of us have tried to make this point from the standpoint of actual experience. What you state is truth. Between the startle effect and finding the best landing spot in the few precious seconds you have, all this gibberish about running checklist is to be left to the simulator crowd. My instructor was correct when he warned me that if/when such an event occurs your mouth fills up with cotton ...

 

[midlifeflyer]

A 45° turn has 1.41G load, so speed is critical.

If you are also holding altitude. The 45° some recommend for the turnback assumes it is being done around best glide and in a descent.

 

[Rick A]

A few of us have tried to make this point from the standpoint of actual experience. What you state is truth. Between the startle effect and finding the best landing spot in the few precious seconds you have, all this gibberish about running checklist is to be left to the simulator crowd. My instructor was correct when he warned me that if/when such an event occurs your mouth fills up with cotton ...

Better cotton in the mouth than what could come out of the other end! Praise the Lord I haven't yet had to experience that....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A 45° turn has 1.41G load, so speed is critical.

If you are also holding altitude. The 45° some recommend for the turnback assumes it is being done around best glide and in a descent.

Gotta pick a nit here. The 45º turn has a 1.414G load not only when you're holding altitude, but in any vertically unaccelerated condition, such as a steady-state descent.

If you're at Vg and descending at a constant rate, that 1.414G in a 45º bank will still be true.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Gotta pick a nit here. The 45º turn has a 1.414G load not only when you're holding altitude, but in any vertically unaccelerated condition, such as a steady-state descent.

If you're at Vg and descending at a constant rate, that 1.414G in a 45º bank will still be true.

Good nit, but how long is that initial turn and is it steady state?

 

[Smashandgo]

With my personal experience when I had a partial loss on takeoff, maintained altitude and returned to the runway, I didn’t have anytime for anything other than carb heat. That was instinctual, being in a 150.

With everyone having experience with a complete loss, instead of partial, and explaining how much brain power it takes, should I just be planning on lowering the nose and finding where to land? That is realistically all I have time for? And then if there is more time it depends on whether there is time, and what the geography looks like (will you tumble or not?) if so secure, if not nothing wrong with troubleshooting to flare

 

[Rick A]

With my personal experience when I had a partial loss on takeoff, maintained altitude and returned to the runway, I didn’t have anytime for anything other than carb heat. That was instinctual, being in a 150.

With everyone having experience with a complete loss, instead of partial, and explaining how much brain power it takes, should I just be planning on lowering the nose and finding where to land? That is realistically all I have time for? And then if there is more time it depends on whether there is time, and what the geography looks like (will you tumble or not?) if so secure, if not nothing wrong with troubleshooting to flare

You should prioritize your actions based upon the situation, as they are all different. Don't train based upon anybody else's, or your own past experiences. Plan on what you need to do to survive any future engine emergencies. The memorization items and actions to maximize your chances of survival represent a very short list:

Position the nose downwards to achieve an appropriate nose attitude that maintains flying airspeed.
Depending upon an altitude and survivable terrain definitely in reach if/when the engine totally quits, point the plane towards it.

If your engine keeps running keep it flying and within gliding distance of the most survivable terrain you observe on the ground as you hopscotch towards a runway, or a more survivable landing location.

Always treat your aviating and navigation with a troubled engine that's running with the fact that it could quit completely at any moment. Hope (that it keeps running) is not a strategy. Be prepared for the worst.

 

[MauleSkinner]

To maybe paraphrase @Rick A, flying the airplane, procedural knowledge, and systems knowledge are all tools in the toolbox. The more you train, practice and study, the more tools you have access to, and the faster you can pick the right tool for the job and go to work.

It’s not about picking the right tools now for a future potential emergency, it’s about having the right tools available if and when an emergency arises.

 

[Ed Haywood]

With everyone having experience with a complete loss, instead of partial, and explaining how much brain power it takes, should I just be planning on lowering the nose and finding where to land? That is realistically all I have time for? And then if there is more time it depends on whether there is time, and what the geography looks like (will you tumble or not?) if so secure, if not nothing wrong with troubleshooting to flare

Very much depends on altitude. If you are above 1000' AGL, you will probably have some time to troubleshoot and secure.

At or below pattern altitude, you are coming down fast, and you are going to be concentrating very intently on your flight path, landing site, and aircraft attitude. You will be processing a lot of very critical observations and making constant adjustments to ensure you arrive at a small spot on the ground. Taking your eye off your landing point and airspeed is very much against human nature, so IMO any checklists better be 100% committed to memory and consist entirely of survival-critical tasks such as shutting off fuel and power. And you better know exactly where those things are and be able to do each by feel in about 1 second without taking your eyes off your flight path and ASI.

All of the above is from one personal experience with an unexpected full loss of power.

 

[Smashandgo]

Now thinking of it..maybe I won’t plan on troubleshooting or securing unless somehow in the moment I have the feeling of having extra time. Maintaining control of the airplane (airspeed, attitude, AOA) and zoning in on a landing spot may very well take a lot of the brain power away.

I want to do a quick scan to make sure I somehow didn’t miss anything in my pre takeoff check, and just make sure something simple couldn’t fix it. But you’re traditional troubleshooting of trying different power settings and different mixture settings, etc, will probably not allow for enough time. Nor will a full secure.

I guess I never meant like actual troubleshooting it was more of a quick scan to make sure the reason of failure was something other than what I can control.

 

[Rick A]

Very much depends on altitude. If you are above 1000' AGL, you will probably have some time to troubleshoot and secure.

At or below pattern altitude, you are coming down fast, and you are going to be concentrating very intently on your flight path, landing site, and aircraft attitude. You will be processing a lot of very critical observations and making constant adjustments to ensure you arrive at a small spot on the ground. Taking your eye off your landing point and airspeed is very much against human nature, so IMO any checklists better be 100% committed to memory and consist entirely of survival-critical tasks such as shutting off fuel and power. And you better know exactly where those things are and be able to do each by feel in about 1 second without taking your eyes off your flight path and ASI.

Good points Ed, all true. Plus I'll add that the closer to the ground you get, more details of what's waiting for you come into view. Like wires, rocks, gullies, uneven terrain, etc. Any of which could change your reachable landing choice selection and require some extra maneuvering to get there. Carry a few extra knots of airspeed for any last minute changes of touchdown points.

Was it Bob Hoover who said, "fly it into the crash as far as you can"? If that means fluttering it into treetops, or positioning the nose between two tree trunks (or fence posts), or a water ditching, or wherever you've decided to make contact. Be prepared to fly it all the way there, then into it, and make the best out of it. Stick and rudder until it stops, and get out, fast.

My only off-airport landing occurred in a rented PA-140 due to a severe vibration and large power loss from 2000' AGL. Compared to what's been discussed, 2000' sounds like providing a lot of available time, but positioned away from any runway, even from 2000' time goes quick. Didn't know it wouldn't hold altitude until the airspeed probably bleed off to somewhere around best glide speed, then positioned the nose and trim to an approximation of best glide (the instruments were vibrating so much it was an estimate, but felt good).

After fiddling with the engine controls it took a little time to finally realize the engine wasn't going to magically straighten itself out, and it was time to change gears to survive. With the engine still producing a little power, the descent rate wasn't too steep, which fortunately provided more time to focus on finding a survivable landing site. And at first, nothing looked even slightly promising. The thought of reaching out for help on the radio never occurred, I was still in the aviate / navigate stage. Then, I found the spot and went for it.

While on a high modified left base, reduced power to idle and the prop stopped cold. Turned final and slowed down to over the fence speed (the airspeed indicator minus the vibration was now reading accurately). Didn't remember to put the flaps in until beginning the flare, and still don't remember the moment of touchdown (adrenaline dump memory loss).

The flight school flew the plane out the next day. Long story, but the thought process that occurred during the various stages of the emergency are all there, including the engine issue, which was not common. If interested in the details, the entire story is published on Air Facts @ https://airfactsjournal.com/2025/05/no-power-no-time-a-glide-toward-shore/

 

[Brad W]

The time it happened to me, it was a partial loss..the engine didn't completely stop but it faltered down to just about nothing
It was a long time ago so I dont' remember every little minute detail, but I'm pretty sure that the normal "reflex" stuff was checked... mixture in, maybe fuel on both, probably carb heat...although I'm not so sure about that one...
It was a very long runway with plenty still ahead and my decision was pretty immediate to just land the thing straight ahead. I remember getting the nose down and chopping the throttle pretty quickly just in case it sprang back to life in the flare or whatever. Once down the thing ran fine for the taxi back to the ramp. I've always thought that it was probably fouled plugs from the very long taxi. The mechanic found nothing wrong. Maybe it was carb ice

 

[Rick A]

Once down the thing ran fine for the taxi back to the ramp. I've always thought that it was probably fouled plugs from the very long taxi. The mechanic found nothing wrong. Maybe it was carb ice

Or maybe a slug of water in the fuel that was ingested, then digested, then gone? When the pitch is increased at rotation, water can run back towards the fuel pickup tube. I'd think that was more likely than carb ice... but only a guess.