Engine out on takeoff.. troubleshoot or secure

AvNavCom said:
For total engine failure, I totally agree. Partial engine failures are a lot more interesting. My own experience was not on take-off, but at about 600AGL on a sunny-day flight in a Citabria. I had enough power to barely maintain altitude, but the gauges were telling me that an engine failure was 100% going to happen. I just didn't have enough information to estimate *when* it was going to happen. The choice I faced was to put it down in a farmer's field right there and then, or see if the engine was able keep me airborne long enough to find an airstrip of some description. It wasn't obvious which was the safer option. As it turns out, I was able to locate a crop-duster strip and put it down with a blown cylinder, bubbling cowling paint, and oil blacker than a politician's soul. I was fine, and after a little love from a mechanic, so was my plane, so I guess that was the right call.

I really think that partial engine failure scenarios are relatively neglected in pilot training. They're much more interesting from an ADM standpoint.
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I have to 100% agree with you. They’re more interesting in the ADM context. Especially at low altitudes or after takeoff. Not one answer solves all because a lot of variables go into the situation. I am glad you made the right decision for your situation. I have had a partial after takeoff where I was unable to climb, but maintain altitude at 500~. Didn’t want to make it around the pattern and just landed opposite direction.
 
write-stuff said:
At 200-300 feet, you have no time for anything other than to lower the nose to prevent a stall, power out, and pitch for a landing attitude/configuration straight ahead.
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Say 500, would you consider restart or shutting systems off to prevent fire when coming back down to earth? I have heard many say restart it, there isn’t a minimum altitude to do that. Some say secure because you won’t have time for anything else.

I think you are absolutely correct with what you said at 200-300. Anything else will take your focus away from where it needs to be, that low. Wondering what you think from a little higher up. Obviously situation dependent and airplane dependent.

Thank you for your response and time.
 
Dixiebluesky said:
The thing that is going to aid you the most is having the fuel valve in the off position before the airplane contacts the ground or anything else. You are at least doing what can be done to slow or stop the ability of the gasoline flowing into the engine compartment. If I lose the engine at 100' after a bang first thing I am going to do is turn that valve.
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Thank you for your comment. It will prevent gallons and gallons of fuel from flowing to the engine compartment.

What would you do at 300 or 400?
 
Smashandgo said:
And not troubleshooting and possibly losing control of the aircraft, because that could take your attention off of focusing landing at the softest spot. What about 1000% accepting landing at that spot, focusing on that, and turning off mags and fuel?
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Ed Haywood said:
If you lose your engine at 200 feet, you will be on the ground in 10 to 15 seconds. You aren't gonna be doing any checklists. You are going to be 1000% focused on pointing the airplane at the softest spot and flying it there.
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To add to my other comment, 1000% focused on flying to to the safest spot. Understood because not stalling and getting yourself going in the direction of the best spot is key. Not restarting.. but securing and turning off fuel might be possible??

Would you consider a quick restart flow with anything higher than 200? Maybe 500 quick 1 time effort to restart, but then if nothing, stop trying to restart and fully focus on landing?
 
Smashandgo said:
Agreed. So then just run the E in ABCDE? Turn things off such as fuel?
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You’re overthinking this. I will say it again, but at these low altitudes, you don’t have time for anything other than flying the airplane - that’s it! When the engine shreds itself just after takeoff, there is a very real second or two to process what just happened, and then you’re shoving the nose forward and maintaining flying airspeed. Running checklists sounds good, but it’s not happening that low to the ground. When it happened to me, I didn’t try to troubleshoot anything or run any kind of acronym. You maintain flying airspeed and fly the airplane.
 
Dixiebluesky said:
The thing that is going to aid you the most is having the fuel valve in the off position before the airplane contacts the ground or anything else. You are at least doing what can be done to slow or stop the ability of the gasoline flowing into the engine compartment. If I lose the engine at 100' after a bang first thing I am going to do is turn that valve.
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The thing that is going to aid you the most is putting the aircraft in the softest, most suitable spot with the least kinetic energy.

Let's say your descent rate at best glide is 500 fpm. At 100 feet you will have 12 seconds until impact. 12 seconds to observe, recognize what happened, decide on a course of action, trim for best glide, select a landing site, lower flaps, retrim, lower your gear (maybe), control your glide path, round out and flare while avoiding obstacles.

Now how many of those 12 seconds do you think you are going to take to fiddle with your fuel valve?
 
Ed Haywood said:
The thing that is going to aid you the most is putting the aircraft in the softest, most suitable spot with the least kinetic energy.

Let's say your descent rate at best glide is 500 fpm. At 100 feet you will have 12 seconds until impact. 12 seconds to observe, recognize what happened, decide on a course of action, trim for best glide, select a landing site, lower flaps, retrim, lower your gear (maybe), control your glide path, round out and flare while avoiding obstacles.

Now how many of those 12 seconds do you think you are going to take to fiddle with your fuel valve?
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And that’s assuming an efficient, primed OODA loop immediately reacting to the power loss and pitching to Vg.
 
ateamer said:
And that’s assuming an efficient, primed OODA loop immediately reacting to the power loss and pitching to Vg.
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Exactly, and without a few seconds of "F F F this isn't happening" like I did. And let's not forget explaining to your passenger what is happening, because they are gonna ask. Ask me how I know.
 
Smashandgo said:
Agreed. So then just run the E in ABCDE? Turn things off such as fuel?
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At that altitude you dont have time. I'm hoping you instinctively fly the plane and pitch down while looking out the window trying to find a place to not die. And then focus on those 2 things. If a fuel tank rips open because you didn't, it ain't gonna matter if that selector is off.
 
before I take off I check out Google maps satellite view to look for places to land if I am under 1000ft AGL. Most EFB have the option to this... only issue is that imagery can be a year old.

my personal minimum is under 500ft there is no hope of a turn back. the gray area is 500-1000 feet... if there is a good wind I will turn back. if the wind is calm I'm going forward. over 1000AGL turn back
 
Racerx said:
At that altitude you dont have time. I'm hoping you instinctively fly the plane and pitch down while looking out the window trying to find a place to not die. And then focus on those 2 things. If a fuel tank rips open because you didn't, it ain't gonna matter if that selector is off.
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I have practiced engine failures at altitude a lot, down low a lot with turn backs, practiced and read my POH emergency procedures a lot, looked at my best spots to land a lot, and want to focus on airspeed and my best spot. If you don’t instinctively do those you will die. I hope I do too and thank you for your help. I just want to clear up if and when to do anything else. Thank you.
 
Engine failure on depature in a twin is tough enough because decision making is involved. In a single at 200 you have just enough time to make your best choice and execute.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
The thing that is going to aid you the most is putting the aircraft in the softest, most suitable spot with the least kinetic energy.

Let's say your descent rate at best glide is 500 fpm. At 100 feet you will have 12 seconds until impact. 12 seconds to observe, recognize what happened, decide on a course of action, trim for best glide, select a landing site, lower flaps, retrim, lower your gear (maybe), control your glide path, round out and flare while avoiding obstacles.

Now how many of those 12 seconds do you think you are going to take to fiddle with your fuel valve?
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How many of the 12 seconds are you gonna lose just figuring out there is actually a problem. Most videos of 'the impossible turn', where they KNOW they will have to execute some sort of emergency maneuver, admit that but the time you snap out of it, realize that your engine is dying, THEN start the emergency process is 10-30 seconds.
 
pfarber said:
How many of the 12 seconds are you gonna lose just figuring out there is actually a problem. Most videos of 'the impossible turn', where they KNOW they will have to execute some sort of emergency maneuver, admit that but the time you snap out of it, realize that your engine is dying, THEN start the emergency process is 10-30 seconds.
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My personal experience tracks with that. I lost at least 10-15 seconds trying to rationalize what I was observing before I accepted fully that I was going down and committed mentally to managing that outcome. In my case I was at about 1500' and had about 90 seconds to play with. But the thing that sticks with me is how fast it all happens, and how much the approaching earth demands your full undivided attention.
 
Smashandgo said:
I have practiced engine failures at altitude a lot, down low a lot with turn backs, practiced and read my POH emergency procedures a lot, looked at my best spots to land a lot, and want to focus on airspeed and my best spot. If you don’t instinctively do those you will die. I hope I do too and thank you for your help. I just want to clear up if and when to do anything else. Thank you.
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Should brief this before every takeoff.

At 200', there's a chance you still have runway under you. I'd use that. Full flaps, slip aggressively.

If not and less than 800' (plane dependent) pick the best spot in your field of view.
 
Smashandgo said:
Say 500, would you consider restart...
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Go out with your instructor and get 3000AGL. Slow to Vx or Vy, then initiate a climb attitude while adding full power. At ~3500AGL, have the CFI pull power and see what happens while you’re in that climb attitude at Vx or Vy.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts after having done this exercise.
 
TCABM said:
Go out with your instructor and get 3000AGL. Slow to Vx or Vy, then initiate a climb attitude while adding full power. At ~3500AGL, have the CFI pull power and see what happens while you’re in that climb attitude at Vx or Vy.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts after having done this exercise.
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I’ll try this afternoon.
 
Racerx said:
Should brief this before every takeoff.

At 200', there's a chance you still have runway under you. I'd use that. Full flaps, slip aggressively.

If not and less than 800' (plane dependent) pick the best spot in your field of view.
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I’d like to think that but I bet I run out of usable at 80~agl and overrun at 150~ for the runway I’m at. Hard slip is the best I got before hitting the interstate.
 
AvNavCom said:
For total engine failure, I totally agree. Partial engine failures are a lot more interesting. My own experience was not on take-off, but at about 600AGL on a sunny-day flight in a Citabria. I had enough power to barely maintain altitude, but the gauges were telling me that an engine failure was 100% going to happen. I just didn't have enough information to estimate *when* it was going to happen. The choice I faced was to put it down in a farmer's field right there and then, or see if the engine was able keep me airborne long enough to find an airstrip of some description. It wasn't obvious which was the safer option. As it turns out, I was able to locate a crop-duster strip and put it down with a blown cylinder, bubbling cowling paint, and oil blacker than a politician's soul. I was fine, and after a little love from a mechanic, so was my plane, so I guess that was the right call.

I really think that partial engine failure scenarios are relatively neglected in pilot training. They're much more interesting from an ADM standpoint.
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Agreed. My one and only takeoff emergency was a partial power issue. This presents incalculable problem/risk assessment issues. It will not be immediately obvious what the correct action is.

Mine occurred at 100-200 AGL. Sudden engine vibration (after cylinder maintenance) resulting in an inability to maintain full power. My reaction was to align with the golf course fairway just off the end of the runway. I was still climbing, so I had a moment to scan the gauges quickly: no fuel or oil pressure issues or oil temp anomalies. A quick look at the controls indicated fuel pump on and mixture in as well as fuel selector pointing at a viable tank. Since I was still gaining altitude with the golf course within gliding range, I soldiered on with a shallow 180 as I continued climbing. Upon reaching pattern altitude, I was able to make a power off 180 to land. Making the decision to continue rather than land on the golf course was a difficult one, but I think I maintained that option throughout. The cause of the issue? A failed spinner bulkhead, causing the spinner to partially detach and rotate off-center, creating massive vibration. WHY that spinner failed is a whole 'nother story in shoddy maintenance by the shop I was using. Never again.
 
Having never been in that hot seat*, thank God, the best advice I can muster is have a plan beforehand. Especially for your home field. If you figure -- for recreational flyers, even those using the plane for travel -- at least 50% or more of your takeoffs are from a known home airport. Be intimately familiar with its surroundings. Do so at leisure, not when the sphincter moment hits. Have a known plan for engine-out < 500' for each departure end, committed to memory. We probably can't do that for every airport, but doing so for just one will cover over half the places its liable to happen. Will the plan work out perfectly? Probably not; few plans do. But you're still better off having one, and having done the hard mental work already you can just focus on 'execute', which is about all that most of our lizard brains can muster when the SHTF.

Fly safe, peeps!

*Worst I had happen to me was an electrical failure at night.
 
chemgeek said:
Agreed. My one and only takeoff emergency was a partial power issue. This presents incalculable problem/risk assessment issues. It will not be immediately obvious what the correct action is.
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Your ADM was great. You maintained positive aircraft control, assessed your situation to the best of your ability, and made reasoned decisions while keeping your options open. That's as good as it gets!
 
TCABM said:
Go out with your instructor and get 3000AGL. Slow to Vx or Vy, then initiate a climb attitude while adding full power. At ~3500AGL, have the CFI pull power and see what happens while you’re in that climb attitude at Vx or Vy.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts after having done this exercise.
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I had an instructor do that to me on actual climb out, at about 200' while we were still over the 4000' field. Not sure I would recommend doing this, but it worked out fine. By that time I'd had plenty of surprise simulated power outs in the pattern. Anyway, it was a surprise, and I instinctively dove for the carb heat and lowered the nose at the same time. Landed straight ahead. This was in an airplane with about a 38 mph stall speed and that was known for carb icing, so it was a more reasonable exercise than doing the same thing in say a Cirrus or something.

That's part of the thing with people's different rules on turn-around. 1000' up in a cub is way different than 1000' up in a 182 or faster.
 
write-stuff said:
At 200-300 feet, you have no time for anything other than to lower the nose to prevent a stall, power out, and pitch for a landing attitude/configuration straight ahead.
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I was the CFi that made the first video ever showing 5 kinds of engine fails on singles (1995). I showed partial power engine fails (to 1,800 rpm) on Cherokee from 500 agl, turn around and turback landings with strong tailwind 16knot too.. Partial power YOU MUST troubleshoot. Carb ice, and even a bad cylinder can be corrected most times with leaner mixture and some carb. heat after lowering the nose to Vglide. 200 agl, yes, at least lean mixture after going to Vglide. then .. to headwind if windy or front whatever is best to land.
 
Zeldman said:
Doesn't anyone here practice emergency take offs.??
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I practice takeoffs, cut the power and land all of the time. Cut the power at 300 and pitch the nose down and simulate landing ahead. Cut it at the altitude I have calculated to be able to make the possible turn back as well.

That is just simply flying the airplane. I was wondering when I realistically could do a quick flow sweep. Doesn’t take long but don’t want to lose focus on what’s priority.
 
TCABM said:
Go out with your instructor and get 3000AGL. Slow to Vx or Vy, then initiate a climb attitude while adding full power. At ~3500AGL, have the CFI pull power and see what happens while you’re in that climb attitude at Vx or Vy.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts after having done this exercise.
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Doesn’t take long for stall horn to come on, holding that pitch attitude.

When people say there isn’t time to do anything else I think it’s because of exactly this. The startle factor takes too much time in the moment, and deciding where to go in the moment takes too much time.

If you are spring loaded for pitching to vg and have a predetermined spot a quick flow might be possible.
 
Smashandgo said:
When people say there isn’t time to do anything else I think it’s because of exactly this. The startle factor takes too much time in the moment, and deciding where to go in the moment takes too much time.

If you are spring loaded for pitching to vg and have a predetermined spot a quick flow might be possible.
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@Ed Haywood gave a good, specific example. Just to add a little more context, I had an engine failure at 75 feet and Vx on a go around. My brain was nowhere near flying the airplane… “Oh ****, this can’t be happening, if I keep pumping the throttle I might end up in those trees instead of this field, check my shoulder harness lock” was where my brain was. My right hand on the stick pushed forward and pulled back purely due to training kicking in. I have absolutely no recollection of that.

Bottom line, the immediate actions of flying the airplane need to be reflex, not thought. Your brain will hopefully catch up before you’re on the ground, but regular emergency training is what’s going to allow you to survive that long.
 
Considering there have been at least 3 crashes so far from doors popping open and people not flying that plane.....

FLY THE BLOODY AIRPLANE.

After you have the airplane at a safe altitude or set up for gliding to field, IF YOU STILL HAVE TIME, then trouble shoot.
 
Pinecone said:
Considering there have been at least 3 crashes so far from doors popping open and people not flying that plane.....

FLY THE BLOODY AIRPLANE.

After you have the airplane at a safe altitude or set up for gliding to field, IF YOU STILL HAVE TIME, then trouble shoot.
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I think this is the best perspective. I’ve heard of those stories too where something like a door or talking on the radio is prioritized and not flying the airplane.

Cant move on to anything else until the airspeed is under control and the airplane is headed in the direction of the best landing area that won’t kill.

Everything else is time permitting.

My main question, when/ if time actually does permit, troubleshoot or turn systems off?

My sense says, I’d rather find something on the off chance I left something silly off, instead of just jumping straight to shutting things off.

Of course this is only time allowing though.
 
Tools said:
This is REALLY an interesting question in a Texan 2… ain’t no prop lever, you want it feathered you gotta shut it down.

I’m screwing with EVERYTHING until I can’t, or don’t need to. That’s saved me in cars and boats….
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There's always that handle between the legs and a rocket motor...
 
TCABM said:
Go out with your instructor and get 3000AGL. Slow to Vx or Vy, then initiate a climb attitude while adding full power. At ~3500AGL, have the CFI pull power and see what happens while you’re in that climb attitude at Vx or Vy.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts after having done this exercise.
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This is a great exercise. Doing my new airplane checkout the instructor did this. Two thoughts
1. In my plane, I was able to "make it" during the simulation due to a very sharp turn I made, so I didn't lose too much altitude.
2. That said, this was when I knew what was happening and what to do (immediate turn back). In a real power loss, I have to think I'd lose some time recognizing the emergency and then deciding to turn back.

Realistically, my 5000' home strip has me at around 700' of altitude by the end of the runway, so if it died right then, there is an OK chance I could 180 and land somewhere on the airport (potentially one of the taxiways if I can't get lined back up to the strip). I don't like it though, as one end has a lake and the other is build up light industrial, so there are no good places for an airplane besides the airport.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Fly the airplane first. If you have time, do other stuff.
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That other stuff being making sure things are on or turning systems off. A lot of people on here say troubleshoot time permitting, whereas the checklist says fuel and mixture off.
 
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