Engine out on takeoff.. troubleshoot or secure

[unsafervguy]

lets just break this into common sense. first, your low to the ground nose high. pitch for airspeed that is alwas number one. a stall at this point will kill you. as to a restart, an engine needs three things to run, fuel, air, and spark. simple enough, pull the carb heat, hit the boost pump (if installed) and take a quick look at the mag switch if time permits. that about all you can do. set up to land. everything else is if time permits, which in most cases it doesn't. now, my biggest pet peeve, the restart idea. if the prop has stopped turning the engine is shot, it aint going to start, dont waste your time and altitude trying. (the exception to this is light weight props with little inertia) fly the airplane, the rest is gravy.

 

[Smashandgo]

lets just break this into common sense. first, your low to the ground nose high. pitch for airspeed that is alwas number one. a stall at this point will kill you. as to a restart, an engine needs three things to run, fuel, air, and spark. simple enough, pull the carb heat, hit the boost pump (if installed) and take a quick look at the mag switch if time permits. that about all you can do. set up to land. everything else is if time permits, which in most cases it doesn't. now, my biggest pet peeve, the restart idea. if the prop has stopped turning the engine is shot, it aint going to start, dont waste your time and altitude trying. (the exception to this is light weight props with little inertia) fly the airplane, the rest is gravy.

First priority is not stall and die. Second is having a predetermined landing site. I think a lot of people could potentially spend a decent amount of time with the airspeed and finding the landing spot in the moment, instead of planning for it to fail and being ready to push, and having your landing site pre chosen before takeoff.

Fuel, air and spark is simple like you said. Shouldn’t take long to check either.

Say you did check and then ran out of time and couldn’t secure the fuel selector and mags, is that ok? I want to minimize the chances of fire on landing.

Also why would the checklist not go 65kts followed by fuel pump on.. it seems to go straight to turning fuel off and mixture lean, with mags off. In 172 POH for engine fail on takeoff.

 

[Smashandgo]

lets just break this into common sense. first, your low to the ground nose high. pitch for airspeed that is alwas number one. a stall at this point will kill you. as to a restart, an engine needs three things to run, fuel, air, and spark. simple enough, pull the carb heat, hit the boost pump (if installed) and take a quick look at the mag switch if time permits. that about all you can do. set up to land. everything else is if time permits, which in most cases it doesn't. now, my biggest pet peeve, the restart idea. if the prop has stopped turning the engine is shot, it aint going to start, dont waste your time and altitude trying. (the exception to this is light weight props with little inertia) fly the airplane, the rest is gravy.

I guess maybe their engine fail is assumed to be prop stopped.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I guess maybe their engine fail is assumed to be prop stopped.

And/or an engine failure on takeoff is assumed not to be a few hundred feet into the climb.

 

[Smashandgo]

And/or an engine failure on takeoff is assumed not to be a few hundred feet into the climb.

Even if it was a few hundred more feet, like 700’, why go straight to turning stuff off to just accept that it’ll be a landing. Maybe fuel air or spark save the day. I just can’t differentiate between fixing or securing like the POH recommendeds. And not to mention but everyone has a different take on, flow to fix or secure.

Everyone has the same take on don’t stall the thing.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Even if it was a few hundred more feet, like 700’, why go straight to turning stuff off to just accept that it’ll be a landing.

Does the POH say that?

 

[Smashandgo]

Does the POH say that?

 

[MauleSkinner]

View attachment 141530

Maybe 700’ is not “immediately after takeofff.”

 

[Smashandgo]

Maybe 700’ is not “immediately after takeofff.”

Yeah and to be honest I just overthink it. I know obviously you have to pitch nose down and head on the direction of the best landing area.

Then it’s a l, do I follow the immediately after takeoff memorized checklist, secure and land? Do I just fly the airplane and focus on nothing but flying the airplane, not even securing or troubleshooting? If I do either of those, did I just potentially miss out on a simple fix that could’ve fixed the issue? Do I run a quick verify everything is set correct flow no matter what? If I do that then I might not have time for anything else and is that ok?

Damned if you do damned if you don’t. It’s a scenario if you troubleshoot and don’t find anything, then you don’t have time for securing, which could be a bad thing. If you just straight to securing, you could’ve missed a simple thing that could’ve fixed the problem.

A lot of people have differing opinions as well, the airspeed and landing area, not so much.

Just want to know what procedure to follow.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yeah and to be honest I just overthink it. I know obviously you have to pitch nose down and head on the direction of the best landing area.

Then it’s a l, do I follow the immediately after takeoff memorized checklist, secure and land? Do I just fly the airplane and focus on nothing but flying the airplane, not even securing or troubleshooting? If I do either of those, did I just potentially miss out on a simple fix that could’ve fixed the issue? Do I run a quick verify everything is set correct flow no matter what? If I do that then I might not have time for anything else and is that ok?

Damned if you do damned if you don’t. It’s a scenario if you troubleshoot and don’t find anything, then you don’t have time for securing, which could be a bad thing. If you just straight to securing, you could’ve missed a simple thing that could’ve fixed the problem.

A lot of people have differing opinions as well, the airspeed and landing area, not so much.

Just want to know what procedure to follow.

The procedure to follow will be dictated by the conditions at the time of failure. What conditions would exist where you want to have fuel, ignition, and electricity shut off before touchdown rather than waiting until after? If those conditions exist, either skip troubleshooting or stop troubleshooting and start securing with enough time to get it done. If those conditions don’t exist, and you can continue to properly control the airplane, there’s nothing wrong with troubleshooting right down to the flare.

The only hard and fast rule is keep flying the airplane. If you miss something simple that could’ve fixed the problem, but you and your passengers walk away, who cares? Fly the airplane.

Look at occurrences, whether they’re accidents, incidents, or otherwise, and determine what you would want to do to result in the best outcome if it happened to you. The more tools like that you put into your toolbox, the easier it is to make good decisions (notice I didn’t say “right” decisions) should something happen to you.

 

[Smashandgo]

The procedure to follow will be dictated by the conditions at the time of failure. What conditions would exist where you want to have fuel, ignition, and electricity shut off before touchdown rather than waiting until after? If those conditions exist, either skip troubleshooting or stop troubleshooting and start securing with enough time to get it done. If those conditions don’t exist, and you can continue to properly control the airplane, there’s nothing wrong with troubleshooting right down to the flare.

The only hard and fast rule is keep flying the airplane. If you miss something simple that could’ve fixed the problem, but you and your passengers walk away, who cares? Fly the airplane.

Look at occurrences, whether they’re accidents, incidents, or otherwise, and determine what you would want to do to result in the best outcome if it happened to you. The more tools like that you put into your toolbox, the easier it is to make good decisions (notice I didn’t say “right” decisions) should something happen to you.

Hit the nail on the head. If it’s open area in front of you/ good landing area, no harm or foul in troubleshooting down into the flare, as long as aircraft control is maintained. And then secure after landing.

But maybe a bad condition would be forest terrain and securing might be wanted then?

 

[MauleSkinner]

But maybe a bad condition would be forest terrain and securing might be wanted then?

Maybe…in my mind it comes down to something that is possibly going to result in damage that ruptures fuel tanks and/or damages airplane or occupants such that they can’t get out promptly.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Just want to know what procedure to follow.

You have your answer.

1. Fly the plane.
2. Execute POH checklist in priority as time and workload permits.

Anything more specific than that is probably useless because every situation is different.

Those of us with personal experience having the fan stop are advising you to expect step 1 to be more demanding and to have less time for step 2 than you anticipate.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Also note the verbiage in the Emergency Procedures section of the POH:




These are “basic guidelines” that should be “considered and applied as necessary.”

 

[Smashandgo]

You have your answer.

1. Fly the plane.
2. Execute POH checklist in priority as time and workload permits.

Anything more specific than that is probably useless because every situation is different.

Those of us with personal experience having the fan stop are advising you to expect step 1 to be more demanding and to have less time for step 2 than you anticipate.

The POH must assume that someone isn’t dumb enough to takeoff with the fuel off etc, so they just jump straight into securing. The 172 is very simple and more than likely, changing a mag or carb heat isn’t going to bring life from 0% to 100%. That must’ve been their thought process.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The POH must assume that someone isn’t dumb enough to takeoff with the fuel off etc, so they just jump straight into securing. The 172 is very simple and more than likely, changing a mag or carb heat isn’t going to bring life from 0% to 100%. That must’ve been their thought process.

I’ve found that things make a lot more sense if you take them at face value and not try to determine their thought process.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The POH must assume that someone isn’t dumb enough to takeoff with the fuel off etc, so they just jump straight into securing. The 172 is very simple and more than likely, changing a mag or carb heat isn’t going to bring life from 0% to 100%. That must’ve been their thought process.

How do you take off with the fuel off?

 

[StraightnLevel]

How do you take off with the fuel off?

Catapult?

 

[Smashandgo]

How do you take off with the fuel off?

I’d ask the same thing. One guy around here took off in his cub a long time ago with it off. That’s why I’m on this dilemma, because I heard it could’ve been troubleshot in the air too. Ended up crashing and not making it.

 

[Daleandee]

One guy around here took off in his cub a long time ago with it off. That’s why I’m on this dilemma, because I heard it could’ve been troubleshot in the air too. Ended up crashing and not making it.

I dunno ... I have a MS carb on my experimental and it won't idle too long with the fuel valve off. A taxi and run up before takeoff (Shirley you perform a runup before takeoff) should quickly reveal if the fuel is not flowing.

I'd never say it couldn't happen but it's difficult for me to imagine how it could.

 

[Pinecone]

You need to break it down to at this point/range, do this, then if higher, do that.

Under 50 feet, are you really going to try a restart? Over 1000 feet, absolutely. It is the in between points.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I dunno ... I have a MS carb on my experimental and it won't idle too long with the fuel valve off. A taxi and run up before takeoff (Shirley you perform a runup before takeoff) should quickly reveal if the fuel is not flowing.

I'd never say it couldn't happen but it's difficult for me to imagine how it could.

I’m thinking the fuel shutoff on the Taylorcraft L-2 that I flew would still allow quite a bit of engine run time, including a couple of runups, before the engine ran dry…we had to figure out which way was “on” and which way was “off” before we took off when I got checked out in it.

 

[wilkersk]

I'm in the "fly what you got, fix it on the ground" camp on this one. A "couple of hundred feet" off the ground is not the time to troubleshoot anything, nor is it the time to "secure" anything (unless your feet are on fire). The engine is still turning the prop? Great, thats less drag. I want to be using the wings to get down, not depending on the engine to stay up. As far as turning back; in the situation described in the OP, I'd like to think I would be making whatever turn I have to make to minimize death and destruction on the ground. But, in the heat of the moment, its gonna probably be purely instinctive reaction - fly the wing baby!

 

[Dixiebluesky]

The thing that is going to aid you the most is putting the aircraft in the softest, most suitable spot with the least kinetic energy.

Let's say your descent rate at best glide is 500 fpm. At 100 feet you will have 12 seconds until impact. 12 seconds to observe, recognize what happened, decide on a course of action, trim for best glide, select a landing site, lower flaps, retrim, lower your gear (maybe), control your glide path, round out and flare while avoiding obstacles.

Now how many of those 12 seconds do you think you are going to take to fiddle with your fuel valve?

Turning off the fuel valve is a 1 second well practiced one hand no eyes turn of the wrist. Having heard the screams of trapped but otherwise uninjured guys being burned my priorities are probably different than others. Shutting the fuel valve off is about the only thing I could do to stop or slow the flow of fuel from the tanks. Depending on other factors the valve being off may stop the flow or do nothing but for me worth doing.

 

[Dixiebluesky]

How do you take off with the fuel off?

People looking at checklist while holding short and seeing the select fullest tank turn the selector either to off or somewhere in the middle by mistake.

 

[Smashandgo]

You need to break it down to at this point/range, do this, then if higher, do that.

Under 50 feet, are you really going to try a restart? Over 1000 feet, absolutely. It is the in between points.

So maybe 500, for someone who is proficient? 300 may be too low.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Good discussion... I'm kind of starting to think there are three parts to every takeoff:

First, the "Chop and drop" part where you're low enough to at least have the mains hit the runway and go off the end at a slow enough speed to be survivable. The length of this segment depends on the length of the runway as well as all the factors that affect takeoff and initial climb performance. When you're still in this segment, except for the very end of it, you'll pull the engine to idle.

Second, the worst: You can't get back onto the takeoff runway, but you're not high enough to maneuver for another runway. This is where you need to execute that plan you briefed before takeoff, and hit the softest, cheapest thing in front of you. When you're in this segment, keep the throttle to full so that any partial power you have is available, and only if that power is keeping you at least level or climbing do you consider whether to attempt to turn back. If the prop is stopped, maybe you turn off the fuel selector.

Third, the "well at least we're this high" option, where you're high enough to maneuver to a runway at the departure airport or into a relatively unobstructed landing space, and you treat it similarly to how you'd treat an engine failure in cruise or any other time of the flight after the first two options above are no longer required. At this point, you're likely high enough to troubleshoot *after* you get set up and on your way towards the desired landing spot, and secure once your spot is made.

Next thought is to come up with a sample script for the pre-takeoff briefing... Hmmm.

 

[Crashnburn]

I had one throw a rod on me at 600-800agl in January. Trust me when I say there isn’t time to troubleshoot, especially when smoke is pouring in the cabin. You maintain adequate airspeed and fly the thing as long as possible.

And crash as slow as possible.

 

[Crashnburn]

Good discussion... I'm kind of starting to think there are three parts to every takeoff:

First, the "Chop and drop" part where you're low enough to at least have the mains hit the runway and go off the end at a slow enough speed to be survivable. The length of this segment depends on the length of the runway as well as all the factors that affect takeoff and initial climb performance. When you're still in this segment, except for the very end of it, you'll pull the engine to idle.

Second, the worst: You can't get back onto the takeoff runway, but you're not high enough to maneuver for another runway. This is where you need to execute that plan you briefed before takeoff, and hit the softest, cheapest thing in front of you. When you're in this segment, keep the throttle to full so that any partial power you have is available, and only if that power is keeping you at least level or climbing do you consider whether to attempt to turn back. If the prop is stopped, maybe you turn off the fuel selector.

Third, the "well at least we're this high" option, where you're high enough to maneuver to a runway at the departure airport or into a relatively unobstructed landing space, and you treat it similarly to how you'd treat an engine failure in cruise or any other time of the flight after the first two options above are no longer required. At this point, you're likely high enough to troubleshoot *after* you get set up and on your way towards the desired landing spot, and secure once your spot is made.

Next thought is to come up with a sample script for the pre-takeoff briefing... Hmmm.

My takeoff briefing for engine out is: Less than 1000 ft AGL, land straight ahead, +/- 30 degrees. Above 1000 feet AGL, return to the airport and declare. 1000 feet AGL, dealer's choice.
Actually, in the 172, best glide is 65 knots, giving 500 FPM descent. That gives 2 minutes of glide, max.
A std rate turn gives 360 degrees in 2 minutes, so 180 degrees in a minute. That means you will be at least 500 feet AGL when you roll out of the turn pointing at the runway. Oh, and you should always turn into the wind.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My takeoff briefing for engine out is: Less than 1000 ft AGL, land straight ahead, +/- 30 degrees. Above 1000 feet AGL, return to the airport and declare. 1000 feet AGL, dealer's choice.
Actually, in the 172, best glide is 65 knots, giving 500 FPM descent. That gives 2 minutes of glide, max.
A std rate turn gives 360 degrees in 2 minutes, so 180 degrees in a minute. That means you will be at least 500 feet AGL when you roll out of the turn pointing at the runway. Oh, and you should always turn into the wind.

What I have learned so far is that, at least in theory, there is no altitude from which I can return to the field unless I'm already turning back toward the field after takeoff.

That said, a smaller Mooney did a successful impossible turn from well below 1000 AGL, so it merits further study.

 

[Stewartb]

Go out with a good instructor and try the impossible turn. I was trained for it so I’d KNOW what the plane can do, instead of accepting all the written BS.

Once you’ve learned the proper technique, a good instructor will get you distracted and pull the power so you get to see how hard it is to respond properly. Once you’ve done that? Then you can decide what to do and when to do it.

For 25 years of my flying, straight ahead was 2 miles of lethally cold ocean water. Training for a no-power turn to safety was useful.

 

[DJTorrente]

And crash as slow as possible.

The quantity of kinetic energy to be dissipated is a multiple of your speed squared. You're far better off rolling into the trees at the far end of the field at 35 kts v. falling into the trees at the near end of the field accelerating out of a stall to 75 kts.

 

[chemgeek]

To improve your chances in a engine issue on takeoff scenario, always scope out nearby terrain before departing, if you can. You should certainly do this at your home airport. At my airport we have a large pond right off the departure end or 35 (not a good spot, although more than one plane has wound up there), but there is a nice cabbage field just to the right or the centerline. For runway 17, we have a large overrun and an open field beyond. We had a plane set down there totally unscathed a few years ago after a takeoff engine failure. Towed back to the airport, repaired, and sent on their way.

 

[AV8R_87]

A std rate turn gives 360 degrees in 2 minutes, so 180 degrees in a minute. That means you will be at least 500 feet AGL when you roll out of the turn pointing at the runway.

You don't do standard rate turns when attempting a return to the runway.
You bank at 45 degrees, which will give you a rate of turn of 16°/s, not the 3°/s of a standard rate turn.

 

[Smashandgo]

I really like the aerodynamic related topics of how and when you conduct a turn back. Needs to be at 45 degrees because standard rate will take too long and you will lose too much altitude.
Steep bank risks stall speed increase, IF you pull on the stick. 45 is a happy medium.

I still really have the question though about flowing or securing and just need to put it to rest.

I can’t help but think Cessna in their single engine models put pitch for 65 on there and turn systems off, because attorneys said so. Or because if a post crash fire insues, systems off would theoretically help.

To your typical person, there will be startle. Maybe even panic and time is used up trying to find a spot after the nose finally comes down. Maybe they thought it’s better off to just secure.

If you push hard and fast and have a predetermined spot, what’s the harm in trying what you can? If you then don’t have time to secure, so be it, but you tried. While making sure to not lose control of the airplane, obviously.

Thoughts?

 

[Ed Haywood]

I really like the aerodynamic related topics of how and when you conduct a turn back. Needs to be at 45 degrees because standard rate will take too long and you will lose too much altitude.
Steep bank risks stall speed increase, IF you pull on the stick. 45 is a happy medium.

I still really have the question though about flowing or securing and just need to put it to rest.

I can’t help but think Cessna in their single engine models put pitch for 65 on there and turn systems off, because attorneys said so. Or because if a post crash fire insues, systems off would theoretically help.

To your typical person, there will be startle. Maybe even panic and time is used up trying to find a spot after the nose finally comes down. Maybe they thought it’s better off to just secure.

If you push hard and fast and have a predetermined spot, what’s the harm in trying what you can? If you then don’t have time to secure, so be it, but you tried. While making sure to not lose control of the airplane, obviously.

Thoughts?

My personal experience with dead stick 180 at low level was that every single brain cell was occupied with flying the plane. I was 110% focused on my flight path. It never even occurred to me to do any sort of checklist.

 

[Daleandee]

I really like the aerodynamic related topics of how and when you conduct a turn back. Needs to be at 45 degrees because standard rate will take too long and you will lose too much altitude.
Steep bank risks stall speed increase, IF you pull on the stick. 45 is a happy medium.

I still really have the question though about flowing or securing and just need to put it to rest.

I can’t help but think Cessna in their single engine models put pitch for 65 on there and turn systems off, because attorneys said so. Or because if a post crash fire insues, systems off would theoretically help.

To your typical person, there will be startle. Maybe even panic and time is used up trying to find a spot after the nose finally comes down. Maybe they thought it’s better off to just secure.

If you push hard and fast and have a predetermined spot, what’s the harm in trying what you can? If you then don’t have time to secure, so be it, but you tried. While making sure to not lose control of the airplane, obviously.

Thoughts?

Once again ... https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...f-troubleshoot-or-secure.151275/#post-3628917

 

[Stewartb]

A 45° turn has 1.41G load, so speed is critical. The safest way to do that turn is with flaps, but adding flaps will reduce your glide distance significantly. What to do depends on the situation and the surroundings. Stop reading about it and go train for it. Explore what YOUR plane can do. After that, examine your takeoff profile. Do you pitch up at Vy immediately or accelerate to cruise speed over the runway and then pitch to climb? Again, the surroundings matter, right? Know your surroundings, know your plane, operate accordingly. There isn’t one condition so there isn’t one answer.

Do you guys train for an engine out? That is, from normal pattern altitude pull power on downwind and land?

 

[Smashandgo]

A 45° turn has 1.41G load, so speed is critical. The safest way to do that turn is with flaps, but adding flaps will reduce your glide distance significantly. What to do depends on the situation and the surroundings. Stop reading about it and go train for it. Explore what YOUR plane can do. After that, examine your takeoff profile. Do you pitch up at Vy immediately or accelerate to cruise speed over the runway and then pitch to climb? Again, the surroundings matter, right? Know your surroundings, know your plane, operate accordingly. There isn’t one condition so there isn’t one answer.

Do you guys train for an engine out? That is, from normal pattern altitude pull power on downwind and land?

1.4 if you are increasing AOA/ increasing load factor. But yes, have to nail the airspeed.

I enjoy training for it, whether simulated in the practice area or in the pattern. Doing the impossible turn from different altitudes depending on atmospheric conditions and runway length are normal things for me to train. Along with power off 180s.

I was talking about additional tasks, time permitting.

 

[Rick A]

At this point, you're likely high enough to troubleshoot *after* you get set up and on your way towards the desired landing spot, and secure once your spot is made.

One suggestion to try if you're flying a fuel injected engine before you give up the ghost and fly it into the crash, is to pull the mixture way back.

Met a Mooney pilot who had some type of fuel system malfunction where the fuel flow went super rich and the engine, while creating a black exhaust trail, was running extremely rough. He pulled the mixture way back and it smoothed out considerably. Not running great, but acceptable enough to return to the departure runway and land.