DPE PPL price

brien23

brien23

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New price for DPE PPL $900. and $600. for retest, local DPE just raised price and still has long waiting time to schedule. What are other DPE charging for a PPL ride?
 
$600-$900. When the FAA artificially limits supply, it creates artificial demand.

Surprisingly the FAA set the price of the written knowledge tests when the single vendor contract was awarded.
 
And my reminder that students need to be told, early and honestly, to save up for that checkride. It isn't just the DPE, it's also the plane rental and the push at the end. Those last few weeks can get really expensive, especially if you find out the DPE schedule isn't going to work out for a while and you need additional flights to stay sharp.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Artificial demand is also created when 30% of applicants need at least one retest.
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Do you have statistics to support there currently is a 30% first time failure rate? My observation is the DPEs are passing applicants they shouldn’t.
 
Clip4 said:
Do you have statistics to support there currently is a 30% first time failure rate? My observation is the DPEs are passing applicants they shouldn’t.
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Not beyond mine and a couple of DPEs who have chimed into conversations with similar rates.
 
www.pilotsofamerica.com

Becoming a DPE

Currently I'm about to take my instrument checkride here in the next few weeks or so. The DPE who I am using is charging over $1000 for an instrument checkride. I've long believed DPEs are out there to extort as much money as they can from students and is a really crooked business. I was...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
Clip4 said:
$600-$900. When the FAA artificially limits supply, it creates artificial demand.

Surprisingly the FAA set the price of the written knowledge tests when the single vendor contract was awarded.
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The demand isn't artificial, it's real.

The lack of DPEs is a due to a lack of ASIs to manage the designees. The FAA is fighting with the airlines for pilots willing to work as ASIs.

Right now Congress isn't too interested in FAA providing less oversight of designees, for obvious reasons.

Ironically, I know of a few ASIs who've left the FAA to become DPEs.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Artificial demand is also created when 30% of applicants need at least one retest.
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How is that "artificial" demand? That would seem to be a natural part of the market, not a manufactured distortion.

In all seriousness, do we want DPEs who give rubber-stamp approval to everyone who signs up for a checkride? Granted, the instructors should be sending people who are capable and prepared, but all kinds of things can happen that would cause a candidate not to pass, lots of which aren't the result of being unprepared or incapable.
 
Matthew said:
And my reminder that students need to be told, early and up honestly, to save up for that checkride. It isn't just the DPE, it's also the plane rental and the push at the end. Those last few weeks can get really expensive, especially if you find out the DPE schedule isn't going to work out for a while and you need additional flights to stay sharp.
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Exactly right for me, scheduled to fly 3 days a week at the end right before the PPL checkride in school planes. I think was 500 for a PPL check ride in 2016?

Then the instrument took 4 months to get the weather to be good enough to fly the check ride. I had to fly with my CFII for another flight twice I think when his endorsement timed out. Each time I cancelled for the weather it was another 2+ weeks to get in their schedule. Instrument was with different DPE and it was 600 in 2018.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How is that "artificial" demand? That would seem to be a natural part of the market, not a manufactured distortion.

In all seriousness, do we want DPEs who give rubber-stamp approval to everyone who signs up for a checkride? Granted, the instructors should be sending people who are capable and prepared, but all kinds of things can happen that would cause a candidate not to pass, lots of which aren't the result of being unprepared or incapable.
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A 30% bust rate isn’t “all kinds of things can happen that would cause a candidate not to pass.”

A 30% bust rate is “the result of being unprepared or incapable.”
 
StraightnLevel said:
...all kinds of things can happen that would cause a candidate not to pass, lots of which aren't the result of being unprepared or incapable.
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Please elaborate. In my experience the whole purpose of the PP checkride is to determine if a candidate is prepared and capable. Seems to me other factors would lead to a deferral, not a disapproval. The odd legitimate "he was out to get me" bust, if there is such a thing, doesn't begin to explain a 25% disapproval rate.

Nauga,
and a check in the box
 
nauga said:
Please elaborate. In my experience the whole purpose of the PP checkride is to determine if a candidate is prepared and capable. Seems to me other factors would lead to a deferral, not a disapproval. The odd legitimate "he was out to get me" bust, if there is such a thing, doesn't begin to explain a 25% disapproval rate.

Nauga,
and a check in the box
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I agree. I’m not going to say there’s a bad egg or two out there that just want to dig until they find something to bust the applicant on, but I’m highly confident that just about every examiner WANTS to pass their applicant. If you fail, it’s not because of the examiner most times.

I haven’t heard of the local rates increasing, but it doesn’t mean they won’t be. I have heard the Nashville FSDO is actively trying to get more DPE’s.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A 30% bust rate isn’t “all kinds of things can happen that would cause a candidate not to pass.”

A 30% bust rate is “the result of being unprepared or incapable.”
Click to expand...

nauga said:
Please elaborate. In my experience the whole purpose of the PP checkride is to determine if a candidate is prepared and capable. Seems to me other factors would lead to a deferral, not a disapproval. The odd legitimate "he was out to get me" bust, if there is such a thing, doesn't begin to explain a 25% disapproval rate.
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Look at the data above. The PPL checkrides have a 74% pass rate, commercial 79% and ATP 91%. The more checkrides you've done, the better your chances of passing...which is not an unexpected pattern.

For PPL, the majority have never done a checkride. Simply not knowing the process accounts for some "busted" rides, and nervousness about the process overall would account for even more.

If you think that 26% is too high, what do you think it should be, and what is your basis? Keep in mind the number of YouTube videos we see of people who dont appear to have learned much in their training, yet they somehow passed a checkride...would that indicate a process that is too strict, or too lenient?
 
StraightnLevel said:
For PPL, the majority have never done a checkride. Simply not knowing the process accounts for some "busted" rides, and nervousness about the process overall would account for even more.

If you think that 26% is too high, what do you think it should be, and what is your basis?
Click to expand...

I do think 26% is too high, and if it's due to the student not knowing the process or being too nervous, I lay that on the CFIs and schools. It's their job to make sure you understand the process and have a high probability of passing before endorsing you. When the CFI signs the endorsement, he should be saying, in effect, "You've already passed the checkride with me; all we're doing is asking the government to confirm it."

If a school has a fourth of the their students unable to pass the checkride at the end of training, the school is doing a poor job and is endorsing people who aren't really ready. I wouldn't train at a school that had a 26% failure rate for PPs. What do I think the passing rate should be? Well, when I was looking for a flight school, I asked schools what percentage of their students passed the checkride on the first attempt, and I wanted to hear at least 90%.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Look at the data above. The PPL checkrides have a 74% pass rate, commercial 79% and ATP 91%. The more checkrides you've done, the better your chances of passing...which is not an unexpected pattern.
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So where I work, at the ATP level, how would you justify a 30% bust rate with this pattern?
StraightnLevel said:
For PPL, the majority have never done a checkride. Simply not knowing the process accounts for some "busted" rides, and nervousness about the process overall would account for even more.
Click to expand...
StraightnLevel said:
If you think that 26% is too high, what do you think it should be, and what is your basis? Keep in mind the number of YouTube videos we see of people who dont appear to have learned much in their training, yet they somehow passed a checkride...would that indicate a process that is too strict, or too lenient?
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I would consider 10% to be above any legitimate failure rate due to those factors. At the ATP level, 3-5% should raise flags.

Any examiner worth his salt can tell the difference between nerves or lack of familiarity with the checkride process and an applicant simply being unprepared. I’m seeing way more “unprepared” than anything else.

This isn’t an “examiner” problem, it’s instructors sending unprepared applicants, and applicants believing that the “standards” are just something to hopefully hit while peaking on a checkride.

Which also explains a lot of the YouTubers (and pilots in general) who consistently fly well below the level of their certificates.
 
Let’s not forget that most of these DPEs aren’t just sitting around waiting for people to call, many have day jobs which enabled them to get the DPE status in the first place. Their time does has value, often in line with what they charge.
 
Doc Holliday said:
www.pilotsofamerica.com

Becoming a DPE

Currently I'm about to take my instrument checkride here in the next few weeks or so. The DPE who I am using is charging over $1000 for an instrument checkride. I've long believed DPEs are out there to extort as much money as they can from students and is a really crooked business. I was...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
Click to expand...

Come on man! That was SIX WEEKS ago! You expect him to trust numbers from SIX WEEKS ago?

If only there was a search function ... (I know, I know) :eek:
 
I think people may have forgotten what it takes to be DPE certified, besides the experience and hours needed to qualify. At least a few years ago, the DPE candidate places himself on a "waiting list" of sorts with the local FSDO. When the FSDO deems there is a need for another DPE, they call up names on the list. Then that candidate can take a written test. Pass the written test and interview process, you get to attend a course at FAA OKC on your own dime. Then he gets to conduct at least 3 check rides with the ASI watching before he is "released to his own".

But he is never really "on his own". The DPE will be required to attend quarterly meetings with the ASI and an annual "Ride" with the ASI to maintain his status all at his own cost. Some FSDOs run quarterly reviews with DPEs and CFIs to discuss trends that are being seen during check rides. All of this at the DPEs cost.

Then factor how many hours the DPE puts into a check ride. Hours before, prepping, discussion with student and instructor, assigning a cross country for mission planning.
Travel to the test airport, a few hours on the ground for the preliminary paperwork review and oral portion before even stepping to the airplane. A couple hours or more in the airplane depending on Pvt, Comm, Instrument, etc. Then another hour or more post flight debrief and completing the paperwork.

I will agree that 4-5 hours oral exams for a Private Airplane check ride may be overkill. 5hrs for an instrument checkride, yea, that's about right. I see Pvt/Comm Glider oral exams running about 90 minutes to two hours to include the paperwork checks and mission brief. Another hour after the flights to conduct the post mission brief and complete the paperwork.
 
My private and instrument checkrides were 90 minutes each of oral and flight. Commercial was about an hour of each, multi was about the same. CFI was about four hours oral and an hour and fifteen minutes flight.
 
Half Fast said:
I do think 26% is too high, and if it's due to the student not knowing the process or being too nervous, I lay that on the CFIs and schools. It's their job to make sure you understand the process and have a high probability of passing before endorsing you. When the CFI signs the endorsement, he should be saying, in effect, "You've already passed the checkride with me; all we're doing is asking the government to confirm it."

If a school has a fourth of the their students unable to pass the checkride at the end of training, the school is doing a poor job and is endorsing people who aren't really ready. I wouldn't train at a school that had a 26% failure rate for PPs. What do I think the passing rate should be? Well, when I was looking for a flight school, I asked schools what percentage of their students passed the checkride on the first attempt, and I wanted to hear at least 90%.
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One of the problems most instructors are new and by the time they know what they are doing they leave for the airlines.
 
Half Fast said:
I do think 26% is too high, and if it's due to the student not knowing the process or being too nervous, I lay that on the CFIs and schools. It's their job to make sure you understand the process and have a high probability of passing before endorsing you. When the CFI signs the endorsement, he should be saying, in effect, "You've already passed the checkride with me; all we're doing is asking the government to confirm it."

If a school has a fourth of the their students unable to pass the checkride at the end of training, the school is doing a poor job and is endorsing people who aren't really ready. I wouldn't train at a school that had a 26% failure rate for PPs. What do I think the passing rate should be? Well, when I was looking for a flight school, I asked schools what percentage of their students passed the checkride on the first attempt, and I wanted to hear at least 90%.
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I think you are correct in intent, but:

In the larger markets, there is a lot of turnover in CFIs. As noted above, many (most?) are newly minted CFIs who intend to jump into a ATP seat as soon as they collect enough hours.

Looking at my current school, almost half of the CFIs have turned over since I first spoke with them - and that includes the chief instructor. I could have asked the 90% question, but the answer then would have been irrelevant because the people have changed. Bluntly, I’m not sure that my instructor knows what the local DPEs are looking for, because I don’t believe he has sent enough students to have significant experience. Some of the school staff may know, but it becomes anecdotal and “legendary” every time they turn over another 50% of the instructors. To be fair, my CFI is very demanding and “by the book” detail-oriented so I am not overly concerned, but the process doesn’t ensure this with any given instructor.

Against that backdrop, I view the data in the link below. I really can’t fault the DPEs for the pass/fail statistics.

pilotinstitute.com

Aviation Accident Statistics Revealed

This article will dive into the latest general aviation accident statistics to uncover the most common causes of these incidents.
pilotinstitute.com pilotinstitute.com
 
The civil Airmen certificates are skewed. I don't know how they get their data but all the DPEs I talk to have pass rates well below that table. So either there are some major Santa Claus DPEs out there to offset, or the data is wrong.

This year has been rough for me, pass rate is down, people still showing up to the test unqualified or with an airplane that won't pass preflight. Throw in some lousy spring weather and I have many applicants who are needing three or four slots in the calendar to complete their checkride.
 
brien23 said:
One of the problems most instructors are new and by the time they know what they are doing they leave for the airlines.
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StraightnLevel said:
In the larger markets, there is a lot of turnover in CFIs. As noted above, many (most?) are newly minted CFIs who intend to jump into a ATP seat as soon as they collect enough hours.
Click to expand...

This is true and I’m sure it’s a factor, but the schools aren’t new. The school owners should be looking at this situation and correcting it. They ought to insist on better performance from the CFIs.


tonycondon said:
This year has been rough for me, pass rate is down, people still showing up to the test unqualified or with an airplane that won't pass preflight.
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Any pattern with particular CFIs or schools?
 
If the problem were unpreparedness of candidates, shouldn’t the faa remediate that somehow? Seems like an easy problem to solve. Somehow I end up back at the DPE though. Why are they passing cfis that send them pp that aren’t prepared?
 
Salty said:
If the problem were unpreparedness of candidates, shouldn’t the faa remediate that somehow? Seems like an easy problem to solve. Somehow I end up back at the DPE though. Why are they passing cfis that send them pp that aren’t prepared?
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Because the CFI applicants have figured out how to peak on checkride day and then rapidly regress?
 
Many of the instructors that are "repeat offenders" with unqualified applicants or airplanes...took their checkrides decades ago
 
tonycondon said:
Many of the instructors that are "repeat offenders" with unqualified applicants or airplanes...took their checkrides decades ago
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So that implies it is NOT instructors just building hours for airlines.
 
I'd love to see data on that.
 
I wonder whether there was a change in pass rates when PTS was replaced with ACS.
 
tonycondon said:
Many of the instructors that are "repeat offenders" with unqualified applicants or airplanes...took their checkrides decades ago
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Interesting point of view. The CFI practical is a cup cake ride compared decades ago. It the newbies I see as the unqualified driving the flunk rates.

If the issue is unqualified airplanes, remember that when someone recommends a student go to the least expensive school.
 
tonycondon said:
Many of the instructors that are "repeat offenders" with unqualified applicants or airplanes...took their checkrides decades ago
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I don't see how being a "repeat offender" is related to the date of check ride.

I took my check ride 3+ decades (since we are counting in decades) ago and have been instructing since then. In that time, I have had one student that had to go back. On the other hand, I know of an instructor that is two decades old, ink still wet on his CFI that we had to dismiss because of incompetence and damaging an aircraft beyond repair.
 
Looking back on my instructor days I probably did a few students a disservice. I may have been way too demanding for perfection.
That said, I never had a student fail. I did have a couple opt for a different instructor.
#happy those days are well behind me
 
I conduct practical tests because a) I enjoy it, b) my observations drive my safety presentation emphases, and c) it lets me conduct flight school outreach as a natural byproduct of my function. I became a DPE because I care about aviation safety. I remain a DPE because I care about aviation safety.

Many - certainly not all - pilot examiners are full-time professional pilots. I can contract out at a day rate which is up to four times greater than what I could earn conducting practical tests. What keeps me in airman certification has little to do with financial gain - and everything to do with loving aviation, enjoyment in being around aspiring pilots, and bringing lessons learned back to the community.

I think most, if not all examiners would agree that we could use more DPEs. It's a challenging problem - there aren't enough ASIs to supervise an increased roster of designees. Hopefully this will get better at some point.
 
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