Do they teach correct patterns any more?

imwithtuxedo said:
the argument could be made that he could have throttled back at 5 miles out to allow me to touch-n-go instead of everyone on here telling me to extend my downwind.
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You were there, I wasn't. But, how do you know that he didn't throttle back? Once you've announced turning base, why wouldn't he? I'd slow to my minimum speed and S-turn.
 
PaulS said:
Aggressively overflying you? The only way I know to do a go around is "aggressively" with full power, lots of right rudder (for a single prop anyway) and climb as aggressively as safe, over or slightly right of the runway. No other way to do it.
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Or he could have just throttled back 5 miles earlier and avoided the whole situation. But that doesn't fit your narrative.
 
luvflyin said:
How? Not being snarky here, just wondering how? Does it have a generic ‘left traffic or right traffic thing? Do you have to make ‘names’ for fixes at the corners of the pattern? Does it give vertical guidance?
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I was thinking using garmin blue tooth to up load the foreflight traffic patterns to the panel. Never done it, I'll give it a try next time I fly. You can load a visual approach that will give you vertical guidance, not sure if it will work coupled though, it also doesn't have the pattern in it, just gives you an extended runway CL with targets for a top of descent point from pattern altitude. I typically don't screw around with stuff in the pattern VFR.

The garmin 700 will fly and is legal to fly a coupled ILS or lpv down to DA. And if you need to go missed, you hit the TOGA button, and firewall the throttle, it will start your missed approach. The software I'm flying now requires you to push a button to get back into nav mode, but I believe the newer software will fly the published miss after you hit the TOGA button. You just have to remember the throttle and flaps when appropriate.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
Or he could have just throttled back 5 miles earlier and avoided the whole situation. But that doesn't fit your narrative.
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Twins fly fast, even throttled back. I will almost always yield to faster traffic in the pattern in a situation like that, unless I am absolutely sure I can make it in first. I definitely would not cut them off. It's not worth it.
 
Larry in TN said:
You were there, I wasn't. But, how do you know that he didn't throttle back? Once you've announced turning base, why wouldn't he? I'd slow to my minimum speed and S-turn.
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And announce that you will follow the dude on base. I’m sure you would, just getting it out there. Communicate
 
1. Always defer to the other pilot, even if he's in the wrong.

2. In this case it sounds like everyone was calling in while they were still pretty far out. It's not a case of the first one to call it in gets right-of-way. The OP says he continued to make calls on his way in. Makes me wonder whether they were communicating with each other to coordinate sequencing.

3. I've never minded logging an extra .1 to let a faster plane come in.
 
Gerhardt said:
1. Always defer to the other pilot, even if he's in the wrong....
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Words to live by!

In the case of straight-ins, the FAA has created confusion by writing a regulation that says you can't cut someone off who is already on final, while saying in (non-regulatory) published guidance that straight-ins should avoid disrupting the flow of traffic. Since this confusion exists, the wise course of action is to be ready to yield the right of way regardless of where you are in the pattern.

(They don't define "cut off." I think that the term would apply if the traffic already on final has to take evasive action of some kind, but that's just my opinion.)
 
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Gerhardt said:
1. Always defer to the other pilot, even if he's in the wrong.

2. In this case it sounds like everyone was calling in while they were still pretty far out. It's not a case of the first one to call it in gets right-of-way. The OP says he continued to make calls on his way in. Makes me wonder whether they were communicating with each other to coordinate sequencing.

3. I've never minded logging an extra .1 to let a faster plane come in.
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Yes, we did communicate to coordinate sequencing and actually I wasn't even that upset about it. Just extended my downwind and followed the other 2 planes in. I guess as much as anything, I wanted to let people know that when they do that, they are not only inconveniencing other pilots who are following the rules, but are breaking the FAR's. Also, they are stating that they are breaking the regs ON THE RADIO where everyone is listening. As I stated before, I have no problem moving over and letting faster planes ahead of me, I just wish they would follow the rules as they do.
 
“Ya’ll get out of my way, I’m comin’ in”.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Had a question for everyone concerning "cutting off the twin." If you are on the base leg and then the twin announces 3 miles out, when he probably should have said something at 5 miles before you turned base, how do you extend your downwind? If I were to turn downwind in this situation, I would end up head on with the twin.
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Simple. You fly the "Upwind Leg" of the pattern. Sidestep a little to clear the runway and let 'em have it.

From there, turn crosswind whenever necessary to sequence yourself back into the flow.

Yep. Not taught. Ever...
 
luvflyin said:
How? Not being snarky here, just wondering how? Does it have a generic ‘left traffic or right traffic thing? Do you have to make ‘names’ for fixes at the corners of the pattern? Does it give vertical guidance?
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Heck, I’m not a Cirrus guy, but I can think of a couple different ways. Build point/bearing/distance from the approach and departure end of any runway would do it. Build the corners is simple, build a 45 is a bit more tricky.
 
jaymark6655 said:
... If you are on the base leg and then the twin announces 3 miles out, when he probably should have said something at 5 miles before you turned base, how do you extend your downwind? If I were to turn downwind in this situation, I would end up head on with the twin.
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See below ...

IK04 said:
Simple. You fly the "Upwind Leg" of the pattern. Sidestep a little to clear the runway and let 'em have it. From there, turn crosswind whenever necessary to sequence yourself back into the flow.
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Have done this for private jets getting a late hand off to CTAF (Upwind stay at pattern altitude and side step inside and ANNOUNCE IT) ... turn crosswind at the departure end of the runway to avoid a head on with the traffic on the 45.
 
deyoung said:
Honestly, if I heard that on the radio... I'd get out of his way. :)
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It's the King Air or Citation guy at an airport south of Raleigh. I'd prefer something like "Citation is on a 10 mile final for 3, 2 minutes out."
 
Who am I to tell him how to land his Citation?
 
imwithtuxedo said:
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn and call out and announce left base and right after this twin announces 3 mile final straight in. I'm worried so I ask my instructor what to do and he says "turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern". So, slightly scared I turn final, announce, and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules:
(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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You raised a valid concern when you heard the twin, but your instructor set a bad example by telling you to plough ahead. Regardless of regulation, this was a hazardous choice. I hope your instructor didn't instill other similar unsafe attitudes in your training.
 
danhagan said:
See below ...



Have done this for private jets getting a late hand off to CTAF (Upwind stay at pattern altitude and side step inside and ANNOUNCE IT) ... turn crosswind at the departure end of the runway to avoid a head on with the traffic on the 45.
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Nothing wrong with the bolded section but I've observed a significant number of pilots actually point at the center of the runway on their 45 which actually will put them abeam the departure end when they make their turn to downwind. My point is don't expect everyone to actually be at midfield when they turn onto downwind.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn ....
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So instead of extending your downwind like by 30 seconds, your instructor let you cause a problem for the twin?
 
imwithtuxedo said:
...and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him...
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You mean to discuss why you cut the ******* off? Because that's what you guys did. I'm having a difficult time figuring out why you turned base in front of an inbound twin that you didn't have sight of. Were you in a rush for some reason?
 
Silvaire said:
You mean to discuss why you cut the ******* off? Because that's what you guys did. I'm having a difficult time figuring out why you turned base in front of an inbound twin that you didn't have sight of. Were you in a rush for some reason?
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Three words..."Traffic Pattern Nazi". ;)
 
imwithtuxedo said:
When I was a student pilot flying a Cherokee 140 (uncontrolled airport) with my instructor I called out 3 miles out, on the 45, and then left downwind and this big twin called out 5 mile straight in final right after I announce downwind. I then turn and call out and announce left base and right after this twin announces 3 mile final straight in. I'm worried so I ask my instructor what to do and he says "turn final and announce it we're slower, lower, and in the pattern". So, slightly scared I turn final, announce, and about the time I'm over the fence this ******* in the twin overflies me by about 500' to let me know he's there as he banks hard to the left to go around. We were doing touch n go's at the time and I was a student pilot, if it happened today I'd park my plane on the ramp and wait for him to discuss his antics as I was lower and established when he decided to announce his intentions to force me to accommodate him.

14 CFR § 91.113 Right-of-way rules:
(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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So, in the situation as you describe it, you cut in front of him. He was on final. "Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight".

imwithtuxedo said:
Actually, I didn't "cut" in front of anyone. I was lower and in the pattern announcing my intentions.
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The fact that you were lower only matters if he wasn't already on final. The fact that you were in the pattern and the fact that you were announcing your intentions are both completely irrelevant. The twin had the right of way. Since there was a conflict, that means you cut him off.

He piped up and then tried to cut in front of me. If there's traffic announcing in the established pattern you don't get to just announce a straight in approach and make everyone else accomodate you. That's not how this flying **** works.
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Actually, that is exactly how it works. How did he "try to cut in front of you" when he was already on final?

Since I'm quoting the regs, there's this one as well:

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a)General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
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Again, irrelevant. He was on a straight-in final, so he wasn't making any turns.

imwithtuxedo said:
I understand what you're saying, but my thoughts on the subject are (looking back) that the twin pilot didn't take into consideration that there was already traffic in the pattern that was going to land prior to him.
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But clearly, you weren't going to land prior to him, you were going to create a conflict. I knew what was going to happen as soon as you said you turned base when he was on a 3-mile final. Your instructor taught you a terrible lesson.

He wanted me to accommodate him by making his calls immediately after me and offering no alternative other than he was "straight in".
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He was telling you he was straight in so that you would know he had the right of way. It's your job to accommodate him, and extending your downwind slightly would have been a very easy way for you to do so, and would have made for a MUCH safer situation for both of you.

He knew my intentions to touch-n-go as I was making my calls.
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You knew his intentions too, and you created a conflict. It's never good to cut in front of a faster plane.

Since I was flying across the fence when he decided to "show me" that he was displeased by aggressively overflying me it seems the argument could be made that he could have throttled back at 5 miles out to allow me to touch-n-go instead of everyone on here telling me to extend my downwind. Courtesy goes both ways.
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Safety, however, does not. Likely, the twin was already on their final approach speed at 5 miles, and certainly would have been by 3 miles, and the slowest safe approach speed in a twin is quite a bit faster than the approach speed of a trainer. In fact, it's likely close to or above the cruise speed of said trainer. You can't just "throttle back" in the twin.

That being said, since this long ago student pilot incident I've extended my downwind in the pattern many times to accommodate straight-in traffic and have no problem doing so if the pilots are actively communicating which is encouraged. I've also been the pilot calling for a straight-in approach at uncontrolled fields and have slowed down to allow traffic in the pattern to land or gone around to enter the pattern if the straight in can't be accomplished without disrupting the traffic.
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So then, it seems that you've figured out that what your instructor had you do was neither safe nor courteous... Why do you insist on defending his actions in the situation you presented?

imwithtuxedo said:
Or he could have just throttled back 5 miles earlier and avoided the whole situation. But that doesn't fit your narrative.
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Again, not necessarily an option. Looking at a few POHs I have here for light twins, they have a Vmc of 79-80 knots, a Vyse between 106 and 115, and short final speeds listed between 93 and 100 knots. Normally, you want to stay above Vyse as far as possible into the approach, but that may be irrelevant. Let's do some math:

If you're in a 172, 60 knots is the place to be on approach... Now, let's say you're flying a really tight pattern, and you're turning base a half mile after being abeam the numbers and you're a half mile from the runway centerline, and you're using a 20-degree bank. Your path through the air to the threshold is about 7100 feet/1.16nm and will take you about 70 seconds to fly from the turn to base until crossing the runway threshold. In that amount of time, the twin has flown 2 1/4 miles. You have 20 seconds to round out, flare, land, and get off the runway before the twin crosses the threshold... But the twin pilot isn't going to take the risk, so he goes around, which involves going to full power, accelerating to Vyse if necessary, and then climbing, which you took to be "aggressive" when it is merely normal procedure.
 
MetalCloud said:
I hate non-towered fields. Hate them.
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The funniest part in this thread is the completely unfounded belief that any of this cutting-off business does not happen at the towered fields. The last time I was a at KFTG, the controller made me cut off a King Air. Once he's done that, it was only a question of choosing who's getting the short end of the stick and the King Air driver got a 360 instruction.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Three words..."Traffic Pattern Nazi". ;)
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Well, in a way a traffic pattern nazi is better than an anarchist. But mutual cooperation and respect is the best way to go about it. At the end of the day, I'd rather yield my right of way than to be in the right but dead.
 
Personally, I will not turn base with a faster aircraft on final until I have the aircraft in sight and can follow him in. I do not rely on his distance call to turn in front of him because I've seen people call five miles when inside three more than a few times. One guy who happened to be flying a Cirrus (not that this matters ;) ), called a three mile final while I was approaching my normal base. I extended my downwind looking for him and he finally passed abeam me a minute or two later with my gps showing about four miles from the end of the runway--he had to have been at least five miles out when he made the three call. I tow gliders and spend a lot of time in and near the pattern and know there are a lot of pilots who seem to do things by rote without taking the time to think about what's happening around them. One thing that bothers me is when a pilot makes a call that he's entering a downwind from the 45, seconds after someone reported being on the downwind. Neither pilot makes an effort to establish where the other airplane is or whether anyone has anyone in sight.
 
MetalCloud said:
I hate non-towered fields. Hate them.
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Being a boondocks pilot, one who normally flies a standard left pattern unless right traffic is specified, I would much rather fly into my own uncontrolled airport than some of the controlled Deltas with a busy flight school. That said, depending entirely on a tower to a point of ceasing to use a swivel neck and diligent watch for aircraft is not a good plan in my opinion.

Actually there is a controlled airport nearby that I hate flying into at least as much as you hate uncontrolled fields.
 
I was out today to do some overdue practice, and someone (clear foreign student) announced about 12 north for the right downwind for 12. Runway 12 has left traffic. I was about 8 miles out, setting up for the 45 for left downwind 12. I announce, and announce again a couple miles closer, and the same guy announces again for the right downwind.

At this point I said "[...] traffic, bugsmasher123 be aware runway 12 is left traffic." I was going to follow up with "I'll stay clear of the area until you're done" if he insisted on right traffic, but at that point different voice (CFI, clearly) says "he's really turning left, just a little confused; thanks for your help." :)

All good, but I don't mind having the tower handle that stuff.
 
Where I learned to fly, there were many uncontrolled airports with multiple runways and right traffic. I never assumed left traffic at any of them and always checked the segmented circle for verification.

There was no internet then and very few publications outside the government directory and the occasional State book...
 
deyoung said:
I was out today to do some overdue practice, and someone (clear foreign student) announced about 12 north for the right downwind for 12. Runway 12 has left traffic. I was about 8 miles out, setting up for the 45 for left downwind 12. I announce, and announce again a couple miles closer, and the same guy announces again for the right downwind.

At this point I said "[...] traffic, bugsmasher123 be aware runway 12 is left traffic." I was going to follow up with "I'll stay clear of the area until you're done" if he insisted on right traffic, but at that point different voice (CFI, clearly) says "he's really turning left, just a little confused; thanks for your help." :)

All good, but I don't mind having the tower handle that stuff.
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Ah. Communication. Without that you would have been assuming that plane was on the other side when he was on your side. Kudo’s to you and the CFI for communicating
 
zaitcev said:
The funniest part in this thread is the completely unfounded belief that any of this cutting-off business does not happen at the towered fields. The last time I was a at KFTG, the controller made me cut off a King Air. Once he's done that, it was only a question of choosing who's getting the short end of the stick and the King Air driver got a 360 instruction.
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Yeah. I guess there’s a story for every situation. One time going into Van Nuys tower put a king Air in front of me, which was fine. He didn’t get off the runway in time and I sidestepped over to 16L.

But the times I’ve had frustrating / unsafe situations at a towered field vs untowered is negligible.
 
luvflyin said:
Ah. Communication. Without that you would have been assuming that plane was on the other side when he was on your side. Kudo’s to you and the CFI for communicating
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The CFI should have made the correction immediately after the student initially misspoke.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The CFI should have made the correction immediately after the student initially misspoke.
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Twelve miles out? The CFI should have prompted the student so he could figure out and correct it himself. They had at least six, if not nine, minutes at typical trainer speeds.
 
Witmo said:
Personally, I will not turn base with a faster aircraft on final until I have the aircraft in sight and can follow him in. I do not rely on his distance call to turn in front of him because I've seen people call five miles when inside three more than a few times. One guy who happened to be flying a Cirrus (not that this matters ;) ), called a three mile final while I was approaching my normal base. I extended my downwind looking for him and he finally passed abeam me a minute or two later with my gps showing about four miles from the end of the runway--he had to have been at least five miles out when he made the three call. I tow gliders and spend a lot of time in and near the pattern and know there are a lot of pilots who seem to do things by rote without taking the time to think about what's happening around them. One thing that bothers me is when a pilot makes a call that he's entering a downwind from the 45, seconds after someone reported being on the downwind. Neither pilot makes an effort to establish where the other airplane is or whether anyone has anyone in sight.
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So you're saying self-important fools call closer than they really are on straight-ins so others get out of their way? Shocking.
 
UngaWunga said:
So you're saying self-important fools call closer than they really are on straight-ins so others get out of their way? Shocking.
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Same with self-important fools in the pattern...a ”short final” call should be followed by ATITAPA so that they can be advised that they’re not on short final.
 
Plenty of times in the Airbus when we go to an uncontrolled field, if its a visual approach and i need a right turn to final, thats what I do. I like to join the final approach course and wings level right at 1,000 feet. Gives me roughly a 3 mile final. Truth is, i don't really care about traffic pattern directions. Its a visual approach.

In my GA plane, i treat it the same way. If I'm on a visual approach, I fly a visual approach to the runway. Now if I"m doing pattern work, then yes, I'll fly your traffic pattern. If I go around, yes i'll fly the traffic pattern just as I would in the airbus. But for an approach, I do what's most convenient.
 
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