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Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by lancie00, Jul 30, 2019.
It could be argued that the same twin on a 3-mile straight-in is “on final approach to land”.
If I'm reading this right, the twin go to the runway at about the same time as the Cherokee. Wouldn't it have been easier to extend downwind for 30 or 45 seconds and follow him?
Don't know how big the "big twin" was but, in the big twin I fly, five-miles is on final and about the point at which we fully configure for landing.
Can't say I agree with the CFI's technique of turning inside a faster airplane and hoping he sees you. Passive-aggressive doesn't go well in the cockpit.
It's not the being on my toes.... it's the crap like the OP experienced or the guys who "take the active" even if there's a tailwind because it's closer to their hangar or the countless other examples of douchery at those things. Largely I think people are pretty good at working together.
Oshkosh is mayhem, but organized mayhem.
I learned to fly at a Charlie. Still hate stupid Deltas that just waste taxpayer funds for no reason. That, and ferrying an airplane with a broken radio from New York to Texas. Thanks god the Deltas haven't overtaken all of the country just yet.
Of course. But it's more satisfying to "teach" the other guy "a lesson". And look what kind of impression that CFI left on the narrator at PoA, his student.
You were a student and did as your CFI suggested. No biggie. Personally, in the interest of safety, I’ll extend my downwind. Otherwise you have a low-wing barreling in on final and you can’t see him and you don’t know if he can see you. Continue the downwind with eyes on traffic and follow him in. That’s my two cents.
I’m not saying what he did was right. But getting in a pizzing contest in the air is not something I’m interested in getting involved with. My own long straight-in story:
Pretty late at night coming into Fort Collins airport I was tooling along on like a 20-mile final in a 160 HP 172. Nobody is talking. Few miles out a P180 comes on the radio announcing exactly what I was doing. I did a lazy 360 allowing him to pass by and continued on to land. Ran into the pilot in the FBO and he thanked me. Said most pilots won’t do that.
The Cirrus guys are the the biggest offenders, but let them be because the can’t put a traffic pattern in the Rnav and let the autopilot fly the pattern and they are likely to spin it in on base to final turn.
At my little sleepy uncontrolled airport everyone seems to do pretty well. We have a large school close by and sometimes it can get crowded but the students follow the pattern and make all appropriate calls even though you can't understand them half of the time.
If we had problems with someone he would have a talking to.
I’m based at an uncontrolled field where there’s often a lot going on - students, skydivers, gliders etc, but everyone is normally accommodating and we all get along. If some pushy guy comes in on a long final I can live with it and not get to a point where I feel I gotta vent over it. I don’t expect everyone to fly five miles past the airport just so they can turn back and enter a regular pattern. Even at controlled fields they don’t strictly keep you on the left turn rule and send you miles out to turn back, they’ll have you come in however makes the most sense for the situation.
My advise? Lighten up, get past it.
One time, coming from the south landing at KPRX, winds 150@10, I announce I'll enter the left downwind for 17. Then I hear one plane taking off rwy 14 and turning south (so I had to make left 90 degree turn to avoid that), then another plane announced on final rwy 32...
So, being based at a Delta, you can imagine my stress (low-time PPL here). I've been told KDUA is even worse.
Suck it. I land when I want to land
The rule is different for an airport with an operating tower. In that case, you fly whichever direction of turns that ATC tells you. If they don't tell you, you make left turns (circle the airport to the left). There is no 'published right traffic' when a tower is operating.
If you don't like the direction of turns they give you (or left turns if they don't specify) then you request what you would prefer.
You did, placing him directly behind you hoping he'd see you and not run into you ... there are plenty of threads around here discussing final approach segment and when a plane is on it ... in short, it's a gray area ... better to extend downwind.
It could be, and there's a good chance the person arguing would lose ... there are about 500 threads with Ron Levy around here with just this subject....
I call in on the Rnav or ILS approach and fly straight in!
I see a FAR quoted about left turns in class G airspace. KFOD is class E to the surface. Besides that, working with everyone else is part of flying.
Keep reading the next few regs. They each incorporate the previous airport ops regs.
The left turns rule applies whenever there is not an operating control tower.
At KTKI, traffic pattern to rwy 36 is "published" as right pattern. If I get NORDO coming in, I believe the tower would be expecting me to do right traffic to 36.
Moved recently from a local non-towered field to a towered field with a cross-wind runway. MUCH better. Student pilots are nearly non-existent, and everyone is much more disciplined. The prior field had lots of cowboy pilots and dozens of Asian students yelling "engine out" in the downwind practicing 180º power-off landings.
Last 4 months at the CTAF field after radioing on final and again on short final, had student pilots start to taxi onto the active runway to take-off without an announcement. All three cases Students didn't know English very well and just ignored the radio.
Glad to be on a towered field.
What is "published" is irrelevant when the tower is open.
91.129 (f) Approaches. Except when conducting a circling approach under part 97 of this chapter or unless otherwise required by ATC, each pilot must -
(1) Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane; or
(2) Avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, if operating a helicopter.If you have a radio failure then ATC is going to move other traffic out of your way but you should still be looking for other traffic and join the existing traffic flow, whatever that may be. What ATC will likely want you to do is to take the shortest route to the runway so that they can return to normal operation as soon as possible.
In any case, what you might do during a communication failure does not dictate the procedures for normal operations. Similarly, what the tower typically does when it is open does not dictate what should be done when they are not. For both, look at 14 CFR 91.126 through 91.131.
I agree. Furthermore, arguments about when an aircraft is on final and when it is not are beside the point. If the aircraft is twenty miles out and it's not the space shuttle, if you're on a half-mile base, he's not close enough for your presence to create a conflict. If there's no conflict, then you haven't cut him off. On the other hand, if he is close enough for there to be a conflict (such as the twin that was forced to go around, for example), then it seems very arbitrary to claim that he's not close enough to be on final approach.
I figure it's best to just avoid the cowboys -- you're not going to change their minds.
Quite some while ago I was doing a little pattern work at an (uncontrolled) airport near here, using runway 30 which had maybe an 8 or 10 kt crosswind at the time, and some guy announces his approach for runway 3. That was the best runway for the wind at the time, except for one thing... at the time it was NOTAMed "runway 3/21 closed." I probably should have kept my mouth shut, but figuring he hadn't seen the notice, I said basically "FYI, there's a NOTAM that runway 3 is closed." He said essentially "well that's the one we need so we're going to use it."
I didn't reply and stayed away from the field until i knew he was down and off. I didn't see any value in continuing that conversation.
Too bad there wasn’t a big trench across that runway for him to find
I had that same thought....
Sounds like a wise decision on your part. It's one thing to argue these things on line, and it's good to warn someone of a situation they may not be aware of, but ultimately, trying to control what other pilots do is an exercise in futility.
That's a risk to life kind of thing if there were people or equipment on that runway. Bonehead decision to go do what you want as a PIC.
So funny and original!!!!!!!!!
Had a question for everyone concerning "cutting off the twin." If you are on the base leg and then the twin announces 3 miles out, when he probably should have said something at 5 miles before you turned base, how do you extend your downwind? If I were to turn downwind in this situation, I would end up head on with the twin.
Sounds like he did say something 5 miles out when the poster was on downwind...
Nice thought but skies were clear and if he was on that approach, his right base turn is 11 miles from the field. I watched him make the tun a half mile from the end of the runway.
Review AIM 3-2-5, regarding Class D:
e. Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft.
Sure, Tower will sequence aircraft and attempt to deconflict landing traffic, but their job is not to provide separation. Don't get complacent.
In this case turning like that would be not good. Going around is the thing to do. Doing it ‘inside’ is probably best but at least get to one side of final or the other.
In the described scenario there was no harm, and no foul. I think, more than anything, there's probably a bruised ego. I would much rather be reading a description of how this supposed conflict was settled on the ground.
Exactly, and tell everyone listening what you are doing. Instructors should teach students the way(s) to safely abandon an approach or pattern. I've broken out of the pattern or gone around for a variety of reasons and the way I do it depends on the particular circumstances. Just teaching a go around from over the threshold is not enough. Having a student turn final in front of a faster airplane also on final and claiming its okay because the trainer has the right of way is not a good lesson to be teaching.
I understand what you're saying, but my thoughts on the subject are (looking back) that the twin pilot didn't take into consideration that there was already traffic in the pattern that was going to land prior to him. He wanted me to accommodate him by making his calls immediately after me and offering no alternative other than he was "straight in". He knew my intentions to touch-n-go as I was making my calls. Since I was flying across the fence when he decided to "show me" that he was displeased by aggressively overflying me it seems the argument could be made that he could have throttled back at 5 miles out to allow me to touch-n-go instead of everyone on here telling me to extend my downwind. Courtesy goes both ways.
That being said, since this long ago student pilot incident I've extended my downwind in the pattern many times to accommodate straight-in traffic and have no problem doing so if the pilots are actively communicating which is encouraged. I've also been the pilot calling for a straight-in approach at uncontrolled fields and have slowed down to allow traffic in the pattern to land or gone around to enter the pattern if the straight in can't be accomplished without disrupting the traffic.
Actually it's quite easy to put a traffic pattern in the Cirrus and let the autopilot fly it, you know, so we can be like "youse real piluts."
Aggressively overflying you? The only way I know to do a go around is "aggressively" with full power, lots of right rudder (for a single prop anyway) and climb as aggressively as safe, over or slightly right of the runway. No other way to do it.
How? Not being snarky here, just wondering how? Does it have a generic ‘left traffic or right traffic thing? Do you have to make ‘names’ for fixes at the corners of the pattern? Does it give vertical guidance?
Yeesh. I'm glad I fly for fun and convenience, not stress. We have a real mix of traffic at our non-towered field, just outside of C airspace -- so we have a lot of guys on instrument approaches that get dumped to CTAF at the last minute, or forget to switch frequencies at all. We've also got everything from nordo Cubs and Champs to helos to turbines, plus a flight school. If I'm in the area, or even in the pattern, and someone sounds like they may end up in the same spot I plan to occupy... I figure I'm probably burning less gas and flying slower than damn near anyone with a radio. I'll extend, do a 360, or just go fly around somewhere else for a few minutes until the scrum clears up a little.
I was on short final one day when a guy who I'd been watching hold short pulled right onto the runway and started rolling. I did a go-around, but (being a fairly new pilot, and all) didn't think to immediately offset to the left or right of the runway so as not to go right over the top of him. Next time I'll know better. We talked about it later; he had called Clearance at the nearby C airport, and apparently missed the switch back to CTAF, so never heard me on the radio.
Stuff happens. You have to roll with it. Yes, some people make dick moves when they fly; you're likely not going to change that and all you can really do is be prepared to avoid them.