Digital pilot certificates

[Tusayan]

The records are already digital. The databases could be combined today if desired. Putting the data on my phone doesn't make it easier for some third party to combine the info, since the backend is already not accessible than my phone.

It’s not a third party that’s the issue, it’s the potential that being connected provides for easy, integrated government control of your authorization status across agencies and licenses, with your window into the system (the phone app) demonstrating your status in the integrated ‘backend’, with no need to otherwise notify you or have a human in the loop. It’d be very easy to connect FAA Sport Pilot privileges with DMV status, or FAA medical certification with pilot certificate validity, or individual medical record coding with FAA medical certification. The effects can then be reflected on your Licensing, Compliance and Government Services App in near real time.

 

[Lindberg]

It’s not a third party that’s the issue,

Really? You wrote this:

One concern about digitized government licenses and credentials is the potential for them all to be interconnected in a complex way, and by different people, long after they were set up independently with the consent of a population that had limited foresight into where digitization can lead.

Sounds like third parties.

it’s the potential provided for easy government integration across agencies and licenses,

As said, this is already possible.

connected to your window into the system (the phone) that shows and proves your status in integrated ‘backend’, my example being DMV and Sport Pilot privileges, with no need to notify or otherwise have a human in the loop.

This has zilch to do with what's on my phone, digital pilot certificates, or anything else that isn't already in use today.

For example you have a problem at the DMV with the Mickey Mouse vision test and you find your pilot certificate, including Sport Pilot privileges, is gone. Or an improper medical diagnosis is coded into your government or insurance industry maintained personal medical record, and your FAA Medical is gone.

And still, none of this has anyone to do with what's on my phone.

The onus is then on you to straighten out a problem that has occurred via automation, without human judgment being applied. Maintaining your credentials becomes an unpredictable and error prone IT game within a system set up by bureaucrats and their contractors.

The bureaucrats already have all this data. This has nothing to do with digital credentials. The ghost is already in the machine.

 

[sarangan]

I agree with your overall post, but I don't understand the single point of failure. Why would a digital ID not be accessible in some way other than your phone.

What I meant by single point failure was all your credentials, ID's, and authentication data held on a single device rather than on a distributed system. Anyone who breaks into the phone will find everything in one place. It will be better if the different ID's are held in different systems in the cloud - such as driver's license in the BMV system, passport in the State Dept system etc.. - and they only need my face to authenticate my identity. In other words, carrying my ID in a phone vs carrying a plastic card in my wallet does not seem like a big leap in technology.

 

[Tusayan]

@Lindberg, the “different people” are different regulators at different government agencies who in addition to having their databases easily connected to each other, with digital credentials can easily connect to you, via the app, in real time. All of the regulators work for government, not a third party.

The rest of your responses show that you’re unwilling to see the fairly obvious point, despite clarification, and want to argue. Not my thing but there are doubtless plenty of others here who will indulge you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Except these are the types of rules I was referring to. No flying required.

I would expect officers trained to enforce those laws to know what they are looking at and, if the FAA issued digital certificates, know that as well.

 

[Initial Fix]

A number of states have things like flying under the influence and reckless flying laws. And, after all, if you kill someone with an airplane, you might well be charged with a homicide offense. I used to have a signature block that listed "Aviation Regulation Fallacies and Half-Truths." One was, "The FAA is the only legal body that controls what we do in aircraft."

For a quick example, here's Virginia's

§ 5.1-13. Operation of aircraft while under influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs; reckless operation.​

Any person who shall operate any aircraft within the airspace over, above or upon the lands or waters of this Commonwealth, while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of any narcotic or any habit-forming drugs shall be guilty of a felony and shall be confined in a state correctional facility not less than one nor more than five years, or, in the discretion of the court or jury trying the case, be confined in jail not exceeding twelve months and fined not exceeding $500, or both such fine and imprisonment.​

​

Any person who shall operate any aircraft within the airspace over, above or upon the lands or waters of this Commonwealth carelessly or heedlessly in willful or wanton disregard of the rights or safety of others, or without due caution and circumspection and in a manner so as to endanger any person or property, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.​

But violation of either doesn't require a pilot certificate

Forgive this engineer asking a legal question… didn’t a state try to enforce this with commercial airlines to collect a (I think) alcohol usage tax and was basically told to pound sand by a federal court?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Forgive this engineer asking a legal question… didn’t a state try to enforce this with commercial airlines to collect a (I think) alcohol usage tax and was basically told to pound sand by a federal court?

Beats me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The idea of walking out of the house and going places with only my phone- or even just a smart watch and having all my credentials and means of payment for goods/services is something I find pretty appealing.

Maybe it's because I'm a pilot, but I like backups! I tend to try to have everything I need both in my wallet and on my phone, that way if one goes missing I am not SOL. Credit cards, car keys, etc are all in both places. It's saved my butt a couple of times.

Apple has their wallet app built into the iPhone for anything that supports it. I have all my insurance cards in it and I was actually able to add my tickets to Oshkosh to it as well. IDK if android has an equivalent but I believe it's an open standard anyone can implement- seems like the ideal solution. I don't want another account and app to manage either.

This is the way.

 

[Clip4]

So if you get ramped checked and your phone is dead, should the FAA violate you? The purpose of certificates is so you can prove your qualifications.

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate. Under this law you could still walk around with a photo of a suspended certificate and local LE has no access to FAA data.

And yes, you are required to produce a valid pilot certificate when requested by local law enforcement.

 

[Doc Holliday]

50+ years of carrying a hard copy pilot certificate and a medical certificate plus a few others, and now it's a problem?

 

[Dana]

As my plane is the only plane I fly, I just leave my pilot certificate in the plane along with the aircraft papers. But I do keep a photo of it, as well as DL and other important documents, on my phone.

 

[Domenick]

Maybe it's because I'm a pilot, but I like backups! I tend to try to have everything I need both in my wallet and on my phone, that way if one goes missing I am not SOL. Credit cards, car keys, etc are all in both places. It's saved my butt a couple of times.

I understand backups. And backup to backups.

I have a key ring with my house and truck keys.
I also keep a truck key folded in my money clip and house keys hidden outside.
You'll never find them.

You should see my digital backup scheme.

 

[Mikey52]

So if you get ramped checked and your phone is dead, should the FAA violate you? The purpose of certificates is so you can prove your qualifications.

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate. Under this law you could still walk around with a photo of a suspended certificate and local LE has no access to FAA data.

And yes, you are required to produce a valid pilot certificate when requested by local law enforcement.

Just have the inspector, standby while you charge your phone, or it could also be in your efb.

Every one has access to FAA data. You can search for a pilot's FAA certificate online.

Just like if you have a picture of your Auto insurance on your phone.

FAR 121 flying. My wallet got wet and medical was no longer readable, a letter from the company was all that as needed for 30 days while flying within the contiguous US.

 

[flyingron]

So if you get ramped checked and your phone is dead, should the FAA violate you? The purpose of certificates is so you can prove your qualifications.

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate. Under this law you could still walk around with a photo of a suspended certificate and local LE has no access to FAA data.

And yes, you are required to produce a valid pilot certificate when requested by local law enforceme

It's not even reliable with the hard certificates. I've got several copies of mine that are really indistinguishable. One differed from the prior adding only the limitation of "English Proficient" and others showing address changes.

 

[cowman]

This may also be much ado about nothing. I’ve been flying for over 12 years now and outside of things like check rides or flight reviews and nobody has ever asked me to see any of that stuff.

A CFI I know recently told me he’d taken on a new student who’d been flying without a certificate for years and decided he wanted to “get legal”.

These things are effectively not enforced and they’re unlikely to put the resources into enforcing them in the near future. Most likely if you did get caught out without your certificate and/or medical they’d just ask you to send in a copy later… or just look you up on their smartphone.

Now if you really want to get into it… why are we having to carry paper aircraft registration/airworthiness certificates when you can look them up by n-number on your phone faster than you could walk across a ramp and ask the pilot to see it?

 

[RedundancyTanner]

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate. Under this law you could still walk around with a photo of a suspended certificate and local LE has no access to FAA data.

And yes, you are required to produce a valid pilot certificate when requested by local law enforcement.

It's not even reliable with the hard certificates. I've got several copies of mine that are really indistinguishable. One differed from the prior adding only the limitation of "English Proficient" and others showing address changes.

I think this is just an argument of "what causes more fraud? analog or digital?"

Personally I think fraud is fraud. I don't think the method it takes place in matters, and it's going to happen both in analog and digital forms. - The only way to stop someone from committing fraud, is by having a single authoritative source that collects, stores, and analyzes your information. And I don't think that's what anyone actually wants.


A good analogy to what that could look like is logbook endorsements. - No one "verifies" a physical logbook endorsement. But digital logbooks tend to have a "verification" feature. That feature is a step towards having a single authoritative source. And it's accepted because it's marketed towards the CFI giving the endorsement as a safety feature that protects them from the potential of students committing fraud.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate.

The FAA can ask you to surrender the certificate. I personally know of two pilots who refused to surrender. In the FAA database the certificates are invalid but these guys still have them in their possession.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would love to go back in time and hear what all the people coming up with minor problems about moving to digital were saying when GPS and EFBs first came along. Probably how it would never work and never catch on.

I'm still laughing about the big problem of surrendering the certificate if suspended.

 

[ateamer]

So if you get ramped checked and your phone is dead, should the FAA violate you? The purpose of certificates is so you can prove your qualifications.

Also, what if your certificate is suspended? Today you have to surrender the certificate. Under this law you could still walk around with a photo of a suspended certificate and local LE has no access to FAA data.

And yes, you are required to produce a valid pilot certificate when requested by local law enforcement.

The way it should work is that we have our photo on the pilot certificate. Then the inspector can access it via his secure app.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The way it should work is that we have our photo on the pilot certificate. Then the inspector can access it via his secure app.

How about when you display it, it says “invalid.”? States are already doing that with digital driver’s licenses. In those, they change to a digital ID with no driving privileges.

And if not a photo, how about a QR code that accesses a database?

 

[ateamer]

How about when you display it, it says “invalid.”? States are already doing that with digital driver’s licenses. In those, they change to a digital ID with no driving privileges.

And if not a photo, how about a QR code that accesses a database?

I’m all for that. Technology could also make additional ratings, address changes, and expiration dates more simple. No more need to get a new certificate.

Oh, and how about they change the FARs to officially change the term from certificate to license? It is effectively a license, as it authorizes the holder to perform certain restricted activities.

 

[Dana]

Oh, and how about they change the FARs to officially change the term from certificate to license? It is effectively a license, as it authorizes the holder to perform certain restricted activities.

There are legal nuances. A pilot "certificate" authorizes the holder to do nothing; other regulations authorize the holder of a particular type of pilot certificate to do certain things; they can change those regulations at any time. IAMNAL, but as I understand it changing what a previously issued "license" allows is legally a different process that may be more difficult for the government? Or something like that.

 

[Bell206]

Oh, and how about they change the FARs to officially change the term from certificate to license?

It actually was called a license up till the late 1930s when the CAA was formed. At that time it was switched to the certificate term. There was even guidance issued on how the licenses would be converted to certificates.

 

[Albany Tom]

Some of the people don't like the electronic versions simply because they don't want to have to deal with the hassles of the electronic versions, not that they're afraid of them. Friend of mine retired as the network director for a decent sized state agency, worked in IT his whole life. His promise to himself was that he was going to avoid computers as much as possible in his retirement, mostly because he was just sick of it at that point.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh, and how about they change the FARs to officially change the term from certificate to license? It is effectively a license, as it authorizes the holder to perform certain restricted activities.

“certificate” vs “license” is one of the top three nothingburgers in aviation semantics. I say that without even knowing what the other two are.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Some of the people don't like the electronic versions simply because they don't want to have to deal with the hassles of the electronic versions, not that they're afraid of them. Friend of mine retired as the network director for a decent sized state agency, worked in IT his whole life. His promise to himself was that he was going to avoid computers as much as possible in his retirement, mostly because he was just sick of it at that point.

So far, I have not heard of anyone suggesting that people will be forced to switch to electronic or prohibited from the physical.

Did you know, for example, that more than 15 years after the introduction of EFBs, you are still allowed to use paper charts?

 

[Albany Tom]

Did you know, for example, that more than 15 years after the introduction of EFBs, you are still allowed to use paper charts?

I'm reminded every time I open up my log and try to read the scribbles of my CFI, or when I take pics of it to have a backup.

It might be my old age, and my career path showing... I've working in IT since I was a teenager. There's an assumption of some people that just because people don't want to do the electronic thing, it's because they either don't understand it, or because they're afraid of it for no real reason. I'll sometimes avoid the electronic because I'm lazy, or tired of the tech, or am aware of some security problem that's a potential pita.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There's an assumption of some people that just because people don't want to do the electronic thing, it's because they either don't understand it, or because they're afraid of it for no real reason.

Yes, I know. And sometimes they just find the non-electronic ways more efficient. For example, I have never gotten into electronic checklists and find a pad of paper and a pen far more efficient for in-flight notetaking than scratchpads. I don't think anyone who knows my experience with EFBs and avionics would argue that I don't understand it or am afraid of it

Funny thing about the notetaking. While I don't use EFB scratchpads often, I have been loving handwriting notetaking apps for most of the 15 years I've been using an iPad, even professionally. Go figure.

 

[Domenick]

I'm reminded every time I open up my log and try to read the scribbles of my CFI, or when I take pics of it to have a backup.

It might be my old age, and my career path showing... I've working in IT since I was a teenager. There's an assumption of some people that just because people don't want to do the electronic thing, it's because they either don't understand it, or because they're afraid of it for no real reason. I'll sometimes avoid the electronic because I'm lazy, or tired of the tech, or am aware of some security problem that's a potential pita.

I was in IT for over 30 years. I haven't gone digital for many things BECAUSE I understand it.

 

[Clip4]

The way it should work is that we have our photo on the pilot certificate. Then the inspector can access it via his secure app.

The regulation says local law enforcement can ask for your certificate. Pilots can and do opt out of the FAA online data base. What app do you suggest they use.

 

[flyingron]

. Pilots can and do opt out of the FAA online data base. What app do you suggest they use.

Nonsense. There's no way to opt out of the database. The FAA (despite the clear and convincing wording of their exemption to the privacy act) interprets opt-out requests to only be limited to the dissemination of the postal address. There's no way to get them to comply with the law and opt out of all public dissemination. And again, this applies only to the PUBLIC database access. The FAA internally, the airlines, and presumably other authorities have their own access via PRIA or the like.

 

[ateamer]

The regulation says local law enforcement can ask for your certificate. Pilots can and do opt out of the FAA online data base. What app do you suggest they use.

The FAA guys can use an in-house app. Local LE can call the FAA and ask if the pilot has opted out of public info. Just like when we used to have to have dispatch call or teletype other states to get driver’s license status on out-of-state folks.

A local officer needing a pilot’s certificate status is so rare an event that it should not be the driver behind still having to carry a hard copy. I can’t think of any scenario where time is so much of the essence that the officer can’t go through official channels to get the info.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The FAA internally, the airlines, and presumably other authorities have their own access via PRIA or the like.

That's not really how that works, to my knowledge. PRIA required air carriers to keep records on pilots for a longer period of time (5 years IIRC) than the previous regs said (some of which were only 30-90 days). Then, when a pilot applied at a new carrier, PRIA requests were generated to all the carriers they'd worked for in the last 5 years. Operative word, *requests*. The prior carriers weren't necessarily required to respond.

In any case, PRIA has been replaced by PRD (Pilot Records Database). Carriers are now required to enter information regarding their pilots, but they cannot just go in and see any pilot's information. A pilot can grant access for a carrier to read their PRD records for a period of 30-60 days, after which access is automatically rescinded. I think it's also now a permanent record, no longer limited to 5 years.