Crosswind

T

Tony R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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So the jig is up. I've been avoiding strong cross wind days, but my CFI said... "let's go up".... gulp.

The winds were 14 gusting to 24. 40 degrees off the nose. Light to moderate chop above 200 feet. We stayed in the pattern and took this opportunity (his words) to land in less than the ideal conditions I've grown accustomed to. One of the pireps was +/- 15 on final.

We kept some speed on the approach. Not a single one of my landings were great. The one he said was my best I sideloaded the opposite to the wind main. He said it wasn't as bad I thought it was, again non of these were anything I'd be proud of.

My CFI is great and preparing me for the worst, but man I hate crosswind landings.

I don't feel like my skills when up on these 5 full stop landings. How many times out did it take you to consistently touch down on the wind side main, then other main an then nose wheel?

For context I have 25 hours with a 9 month break from flying. This was my 3rd time up since the break.

Blur Skies
Tony
 
Every single time I do something less than perfectly, I look at it as an excuse to keep flying and work on it. Which is every single time I go flying. There's always time to improve, build skill, and most importantly, learn how to enjoy the process of improving and learning.
 
Plenty of 100-200 hour pilots out there who still crab all the way down and plant it on the pavement with little regard for side loads. Probably some 1000 hour pilots too. Don't be too hard on yourself. It is a skill gradually learned, but it will happen.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Don’t worry about “how many.” Keep doing it until you’re comfortable. Then keep doing it.
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That, right there is good advice. I was doing that - and in a tail-dragger, no less. But I really got to know that Citabria.

Come check-ride day it was blowing and gusty and I wanted to cancel and reschedule. But my CFI (and airport/plane owner) told me I could handle it and go get er done. I did and I did and actually had fun doing it. I had to travel over 75 miles to get to where the FAA Examiner was so he said we didn't need to do much in the way of cross-country testing - finding him and being on time was proof that I could do it. To this day I remember almost everything about that checkride. It was awesome and still is...
 
What cinched it for me was assimilating (not just knowing) a few things:
1. Use aileron to shift the airplane left/right to maintain the centerline.
2. Use rudder to keep the airplane (nose) aligned/pointed down the runway.
3. As you slow down, you must increase control inputs to get the same effect.
4. Keep "flying" the airplane even after the wheels have touched down. Elevator back, increasing aileron & rudder.

This is true for every landing whether or not there is any xwind - so there is nothing different or special to do in a xwind. In a xwind this will put you into a slip, which is expected and normal. Don't think of that as a separate maneuver like "slip", but just applying the above things like you do for every landing. In a strong enough xwind, this will cause the upwind main wheel to touch down first. Don't think of that as "make the upwind wheel touch down first", but just applying the above things like you do for every landing, and it will happen naturally.
 
Tony R said:
So the jig is up. I've been avoiding strong cross wind days, but my CFI said... "let's go up".... gulp.

The winds were 14 gusting to 24. 40 degrees off the nose. Light to moderate chop above 200 feet. We stayed in the pattern and took this opportunity (his words) to land in less than the ideal conditions I've grown accustomed to. One of the pireps was +/- 15 on final.

We kept some speed on the approach. Not a single one of my landings were great. The one he said was my best I sideloaded the opposite to the wind main. He said it wasn't as bad I thought it was, again non of these were anything I'd be proud of.

My CFI is great and preparing me for the worst, but man I hate crosswind landings.

I don't feel like my skills when up on these 5 full stop landings. How many times out did it take you to consistently touch down on the wind side main, then other main an then nose wheel?

For context I have 25 hours with a 9 month break from flying. This was my 3rd time up since the break.

Blur Skies
Tony
Click to expand...
You don't have to touch the upwind down first but once we have the crab out with rudder, using aileron to counteract rising wing due to yaw, we might put that wheel down second or two before the other. I've seen this work on any size but here's a clip of a big one:
 
MRC01 said:
What cinched it for me was assimilating (not just knowing) a few things:
1. Use aileron to shift the airplane left/right to maintain the centerline.
2. Use rudder to keep the airplane (nose) aligned/pointed down the runway.
3. As you slow down, you must increase control inputs to get the same effect.
4. Keep "flying" the airplane even after the wheels have touched down. Elevator back, increasing aileron & rudder.
Click to expand...
This. ^^^^^^^
 
We were all where you are now, just some of us may not remember the early days? I was terrible at landing even without cross winds. My instructor was a saint to fly with me many many days just in the pattern so I could solo.
I landed 309 times during training before my check ride. And I still sucked at it but passed my check ride.
I didn't really learn how to land until a couple years later in my own 172 when I was by myself.
I still fly the pattern just for fun several times a week.
I became buddies with the guy next door to my hangar. He is a 44 year aviator. He has taken me out years ago in like 25 kt direct cross winds and that helped my confidence. I flew his arrow a couple months ago in crazy winds 2 days in a row practicing landings
My latest gig is no flap landings on our 2800' runway. Fun fun fun.
I do add up my landings every so often. Been flying for 10 years
Just for fun , 1600+ hrs and 2600+ landings so far and I am just starting to get the hang of it in my 172.

Good luck to ya, you just have to keep at it.
 
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Tony R said:
So the jig is up. I've been avoiding strong cross wind days, but my CFI said... "let's go up".... gulp.

The winds were 14 gusting to 24. 40 degrees off the nose. Light to moderate chop above 200 feet. We stayed in the pattern and took this opportunity (his words) to land in less than the ideal conditions I've grown accustomed to. One of the pireps was +/- 15 on final.

We kept some speed on the approach. Not a single one of my landings were great. The one he said was my best I sideloaded the opposite to the wind main. He said it wasn't as bad I thought it was, again non of these were anything I'd be proud of.

My CFI is great and preparing me for the worst, but man I hate crosswind landings.

I don't feel like my skills when up on these 5 full stop landings. How many times out did it take you to consistently touch down on the wind side main, then other main an then nose wheel?

For context I have 25 hours with a 9 month break from flying. This was my 3rd time up since the break.

Blur Skies
Tony
Click to expand...
I learned on runway 2/20 with winds predominantly out of the west. Every day was crosswind day.
Like Viper said, "keep sending him up."
 
Tony R said:
How many times out did it take you to consistently touch down on the wind side main, then other main an then nose wheel?
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That statement makes me cringe a little. If your mental goal is to touch down on the upwind main, IMO, you are thinking about it incorrectly. Every landing has exactly the same. Aligned with no drift. That means ruder to keep you (not the airplane) aligned and the amount of aileron necessary to counter drift. To summarize:

The goal of a crosswind landing is a touchdown aligned laterally with no drift.
The result of a good crosswind landing is a touchdown on the upwind main when the crosswind exists on the runway.

I always find it fun to watch a pilot who thinks of upwind main as the goal touch down on the upwind main when there is no crosswind once they get into the flare.
 
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There are two methods for crosswind landings--the "stabilized" approach and the "kick" method. You should practice what your CFI teaches which is probably the "stabilized" approach for the entire final leg.

Once you have your certificate, you can experiment.

I find it frustrating to try and hold a "stabilized" approach for the entire final leg as wind conditions are constantly changing during descent. I tend to crab the first half of final or more, then stabilize. There are times when I crab almost all the way down, then slowly stabilize as I cross the fence. Occasionally, I'll ride the crab until the round out, then kick in rudder and aileron.

Remember: The go-around is your friend. Better to do it right the second, third, or fourth attempt, rather than stress the airframe.

Have fun! Another friend is slow flight practice.
 
Will add an early plug for taildraggers. They force you to use rudder for alignment and aileron for drift every single time you land. Touching down with a crab or side load will send you off to the races. A TW endorsement soon after PPL is very beneficial in making you more comfortable with frisky conditions. Older taildraggers also have more adverse yaw, which teaches coordination. Plus it opens up a whole new class of aircraft for your aviation enjoyment.

If you're not careful, you'll fall in love with tube and fabric taildraggers, and 30 years later still be thinking about getting your Instrument rating. Ask me how I know.
 
MRC01 said:
….
3. As you slow down, you must increase control inputs to get the same effect.
….
Click to expand...

ESPECIALLY this. A deep fundamental understanding of this is when ANY crosswind doesn’t matter.

I don’t EVER care to hear wind direction and speed. Get to centerline and STAY there, coordinated. Your nose will tell you the direction, how much it’s deflected tells you speed.

Then as said, feet to parallel, hands to center. The wind could shift 180 degrees, I wouldn’t even know, but I WILL be in the middle and aligned.

On takeoff, ailerons FULL into the wind, as soon as the wheel lifts, I modulate to keep it just off the ground at first, but to stay in the middle of the runway. How do I know which way the winds are from? Opposite to what rudder it’s been taking me to stay in the middle during the takeoff run. This is really pronounced in transport category jets. A little intel (windsock) is nice for light civils.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Will add an early plug for taildraggers. They force you to use rudder for alignment and aileron for drift every single time you land. Touching down with a crab or side load will send you off to the races. A TW endorsement soon after PPL is very beneficial in making you more comfortable with frisky conditions. Older taildraggers also have more adverse yaw, which teaches coordination. ...
Click to expand...
Agreed. Getting the tailwheel endorsement - or even better, learning to fly in a tailwheel airplane - will improve stick & rudder skills no matter what you fly, even in nose-draggers. Especially when maneuvering during takeoff & landing, which are the most safety critical portions of flight. And it's fun :D
 
You could join the Navy, head to the carrier. You may get just a little crosswind when the ship is making its own wind. Another plus, annoying thermals are almost nonexistent over more stable water.

Of course, you may have a few other things to concern yourself with, but crosswinds would be minimized.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I always find it fun to watch a pilot who things of upwind main and the goal touch down on the upwind main when there is not crosswind once they get into the flare.
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I gave a flight review to a guy in his PA-12 once who flew perfectly coordinated until he entered downwind, then he flew in a left-wing-low slip. The airplane went through some really interesting gyrations before touching down nicely in a crosswind from the right.

I was probably as close to the controls as I’ve ever been giving instruction, but I didn’t have to touch them. A couple more times around the patch got him flying straight in the pattern.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I gave a flight review to a guy in his PA-12 once who flew perfectly coordinated until he entered downwind, then he flew in a left-wing-low slip. The airplane went through some really interesting gyrations before touching down nicely in a crosswind from the right.

I was probably as close to the controls as I’ve ever been giving instruction, but I didn’t have to touch them. A couple more times around the patch got him flying straight in the pattern.
Click to expand...
That one is new to me! Wing low slip for the whole pattern!
 
So there I was… 737-200 training. Not doing great on v1 cuts, but hacking it. Checkride day, I N-A-I-L it. Picture perfect. Whole single engine pattern to landing with a crosswind right on the money. Rails. Awesome. Capt is amazed, I tell him I timed my peak perfectly….

The check airman asks how my left leg feels. Tired but good!!

Not surprised he said, you trimmed the wrong direction!!!!

Ooooooohhhhh…. that splains a lot.

Couldn’t gig me, ha!
 
I would say most student pilots struggle with this. I also frequently bring up the CFI who finished my private training. He made me go out in the worst most gusty conditions and fly with wind gusts in the 20s and almost 90 degrees to the runway. He made me do that over and over, I'd have to try to go through my log books to remember how many sessions but- a lot of them. I was pretty much ready for my checkride but he wouldn't sign me off until I was able to make a good landing in those conditions consistently. It was frustrating to say the least but I got through it.

The upside to that is after I passed my checkride I was comfortable flying on days that I'd have been afraid to before going through that training. Also when I started traveling in my airplane and would run into unexpected conditions like winds gusting > 30kts I was ready to handle it. There are a lot of pilots out there who are nervous to go fly on windy days, having the experience to know you can handle it makes a big difference.
 
In my ppl training I never got a lot of crosswind training but as I grew more confident with the airplane I kept slowly upping the limit.I actually got to were I loved crosswinds,I flew 41 miles one time to land somewhere were there was a crosswind lol.A Grumman yankee in a good crosswind is great fun,it’s responsive enough that once you get the hang of it it feels like you can land it in anything but you’ll run out of rudder pretty quick.Tiny rudder.
 
Tools said:
So there I was… 737-200 training. Not doing great on v1 cuts, but hacking it. Checkride day, I N-A-I-L it. Picture perfect. Whole single engine pattern to landing with a crosswind right on the money. Rails. Awesome. Capt is amazed, I tell him I timed my peak perfectly….
you do
The check airman asks how my left leg feels. Tired but good!!

Not surprised he said, you trimmed the wrong direction!!!!

Ooooooohhhhh…. that splains a lot.

Couldn’t gig me, ha!
Click to expand...
You were just got ahead of yourself and thought you were taking out the trim for the flare when you pulled the power off :). Trim, Trim, Trim was the mantra for the T-38 and all of the airliners I flew. But I had one stud in the T-38 that I knew if I took the bird it would not be in trim. Very strong athlete from some sport who had very fine muscle control even with holding large forces. Smooth as silk with little trimming. So if you were applying rudder against your own trim and your quad wasn't shaking you should be proud of whatever leg exercises you do or genetics.
 
Training: At KAPA in Colorado, the winds generally followed a pattern. Light from the southeast in the morning, moving clockwise and increasing in intensity through the day until diminishing from the north at night. Main runways were 17/35. Many of us scheduled lessons for newer students in the morning and advanced students in the afternoon, as appropriate for their level of training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I gave a flight review to a guy in his PA-12 once who flew perfectly coordinated until he entered downwind, then he flew in a left-wing-low slip. The airplane went through some really interesting gyrations before touching down nicely in a crosswind from the right.

I was probably as close to the controls as I’ve ever been giving instruction, but I didn’t have to touch them. A couple more times around the patch got him flying straight in the pattern.
Click to expand...
How was his altitude control? Throttle? The slip is going to increase the angle of descent.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That one is new to me! Wing low slip for the whole pattern!
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I did it once at an AOPA fly in to Bremerton PWT. There was a temporary Tower. He’s asking folk to shorten their pattern, land long and plan to turn off all the way at the end of the runway. So I put it in a foot to the floor slip on downwind and turned to be on base abeam the numbers. Coulda made it even shorter than that. Ended up holding it off the runway for awhile before touching down.
 
luvflyin said:
I did it once at an AOPA fly in to Bremerton PWT. There was a temporary Tower. He’s asking folk to shorten their pattern, land long and plan to turn off all the way at the end of the runway. So I put it in a foot to the floor slip on downwind and turned to be on base abeam the numbers. Coulda made it even shorter than that. Ended up holding it off the runway for awhile before touching down.
Click to expand...
Sure, I’ve slipped to lose altitude from a variety of positions too. I was thinking in terms of a crosswind slip, not a lose altitude slip.
 
MRC01 said:
1. Use aileron to shift the airplane left/right to maintain the centerline.
2. Use rudder to keep the airplane (nose) aligned/pointed down the runway.
3. As you slow down, you must increase control inputs to get the same effect.
4. Keep "flying" the airplane even after the wheels have touched down. Elevator back, increasing aileron & rudder.
Click to expand...

These are the key things to learn. Even when I was learning I was told aileron into the wind, etc., but didn't understand what it was actually doing and how to use it correctly.

One lesson I did with my students on a windy day with a good solid crosswind, fly the length of the runway 10-20 feet off the ground. I would demonstrate using the rudder to keep the nose aligned, then use ailerons and bank to work the aircraft from one side of the runway to the other. Then combine all of those controls to track straight down the centerline. Once the student has demonstrated they can track the centerline, usually takes a few low passes, reduce the throttle and land.

Most of my students were able to safely and confidently land the Cherokee all the way up to the maximum demonstrated crosswind. Our local DPE used to remark how all of my students never let the centerline get out from the between the mains on checkrides, apparently not that common.
 
sourdough44 said:
You could join the Navy, head to the carrier. You may get just a little crosswind when the ship is making its own wind. Another plus, annoying thermals are almost nonexistent over more stable water.

Of course, you may have a few other things to concern yourself with, but crosswinds would be minimized.
Click to expand...
Yeah .. I'm 55 y/o accountant/broker... I think I could stick the 3 wire every time. 25 hours is plenty for one of those fancy tail hooks.
 
midwestpa24 said:
These are the key things to learn. Even when I was learning I was told aileron into the wind, etc., but didn't understand what it was actually doing and how to use it correctly.

One lesson I did with my students on a windy day with a good solid crosswind, fly the length of the runway 10-20 feet off the ground. I would demonstrate using the rudder to keep the nose aligned, then use ailerons and bank to work the aircraft from one side of the runway to the other. Then combine all of those controls to track straight down the centerline. Once the student has demonstrated they can track the centerline, usually takes a few low passes, reduce the throttle and land.

Most of my students were able to safely and confidently land the Cherokee all the way up to the maximum demonstrated crosswind. Our local DPE used to remark how all of my students never let the centerline get out from the between the mains on checkrides, apparently not that common.
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How do I request this? Ask tower for low approach or is this asking for the option? ... Remember low time student...
 
Tony R said:
How do I request this? Ask tower for low approach or is this asking for the option? ... Remember low time student...
Click to expand...
Either one, but as a student pilot, I would encourage you to learn to find such answers yourself.

You have a question about what "low approach" and "the option" means. A good place for definitions of words used in radio communication and ATC clearances would be the Pilot/Controller Glossary.
 
Larry in TN said:
Either one, but as a student pilot, I would encourage you to learn to find such answers yourself.

You have a question about what "low approach" and "the option" means. A good place for definitions of words used in radio communication and ATC clearances would be the Pilot/Controller Glossary.
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So the homework you gave me yielded more than just a bit of information, I learned more than the one question.

I will recap please lmk if I'm off the mark;
Types of landing clearances (understanding that you can always go around):
1) clear to land - you are expected to land
2) clear to land; hold short of XX - you are expected to land and exit prior to or hold short of the intersection
3)clear touch and go - you are expected to touch down and take off again, no stopping, no exiting.
4)cleared stop and go - you can land, reconfigure and take off again, btw my airport does not issue these
5) cleared for the option - touch-and-go, stop-and-go, low approach, missed approach, or a full stop landing.

So next time I'm up I can get my cleared for the option and fly a low approach.
 
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