Crash in Carrollton GA 2 airplanes down, 3 dead.

This pilot is better but the accent even has the controllers laughing. At least no problem with communicating...

 
Lowflynjack said:
Turns out someone decided it's safer to go over mid-field higher than pattern altitude, then do a teardrop to enter on a 45 to downwind.
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That's how I taught it and have done it for about 40 years.

It's been ages since I've had any conflict at all doing it that way.

I do try to keep the field in gliding range throughout.
 
unsafervguy said:
here we go again.. here comes the nordo bashing. of course there are no facts know yet, but an airplane cannot fly without a radio and a 430W.
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I said I HOPE that was not the case. Apparently you misread. Who said anything about a 430 or a plane needing a radio to fly. You must be confusing threads. If you have a radio - use it.

I have had close calls where a transponder allowed my gdl88 to pick up traffic as the pilot was not communicating. Hate to think what would have happened had I not been so equipped.

These accidents are such a tragedy, and we would hate to see lack of talking cause such an event. We all await the report.
 
FastEddieB said:
That's how I taught it and have done it for about 40 years.

It's been ages since I've had any conflict at all doing it that way.

I do try to keep the field in gliding range throughout.
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I agree. Overflying the field at pattern altitude to " take a look" is dangerous. I was taught to overfly at two three hundred feet above pattern altitude then enter on a fourty five. Always done it this way, using the radio always. With the good handhelds made today there's no excuse for not using a radio.
 
GLMS_NC said:
I said I HOPE that was not the case. Apparently you misread. Who said anything about a 430 or a plane needing a radio to fly. You must be confusing threads. If you have a radio - use it.

I have had close calls where a transponder allowed my gdl88 to pick up traffic as the pilot was not communicating. Hate to think what would have happened had I not been so equipped.

These accidents are such a tragedy, and we would hate to see lack of talking cause such an event. We all await the report.
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I baffled as to why pilots would NOT want to use a radio.
 
I've yet tomfigure out how cross the field at twin & jet pattern altitude then turning your back in everything and descending into the normal pattern approach lane is safe? I also cross over the field ~3000' from the end I want to land, at TPA not above, and roll into downwind. Easy peasy, and I can see what's going on right up until I make a short 90° turn.
 
FastEddieB said:
That's how I taught it and have done it for about 40 years. It's been ages since I've had any conflict at all doing it that way
I do try to keep the field in gliding range throughout.
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Yup. I taught that way since '78. Maybe they wanted us to teach it that way back then, I dunno. ABOVE TPA and then once clear of TPA descend to TPA and then enter on a 45 for the downwind. For instance, you're north of the field and they're landing 27 left traffic. Fly over at 3-500' above TPA to the south doing the teardrop to 45 for a downwind for 27.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I was going to post that video but really didn't want to bring up any memories for you. I can understand that it's tough thinking back. My dad lost a couple of his buddies in the Roselawn ATR crash. He certainly doesn't like when it's brought up.
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I don't mind, just brings back sad memories. Roselawn had my attention too as I was flying the ATR-72 at the time. Sorry for your Dad's loss.
 
midcap said:
I baffled as to why pilots would NOT want to use a radio.
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Slight hijack: Some of my most nervous flying was with a NORDO taking off in the wrong direction as I (and two other planes) entered the pattern. Having to guess which direction he was going to turn after not heeding the ASOS (or more likely, the windsock) along with having to completely amend my speeds/pattern, etc. to suit his arrogance/ignorance/whatever was enough to get my temper up. This wasn't some back-country Cub in a rural area, either. See and avoid may be the rule and our duty, but it doesn't mean it has to be exploited.

If you're going NORDO, I would hope you'd be aware of (and respectful) of the expected flow of traffic and not act like you're king of the castle.
 
FastEddieB said:
That's how I taught it and have done it for about 40 years.

It's been ages since I've had any conflict at all doing it that way.

I do try to keep the field in gliding range throughout.
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Ditto. It's never presented an issue for me in 38 years.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Did the flight instructor in the right seat speak Engrish?
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CFI 24 year old Taylor Stone-

14332827_1473285818.4805.jpg


Yeah, she spoke Engrish and English.:rolleyes:

There is a gofundme page for her parents and the funeral costs if anybody feels so inclined.

https://www.gofundme.com/TaylorStoneFund
 
wayne said:
Or driving a car, riding a bike, riding a motorcycle, boating, ....

Sad that none of them saw the other. Sad that all three died.
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Driving a car is an absolute necessity, flying is not. Not a good comparison.

My buddy is an ER doc and they call people who ride motorcycle's "organ donors". He has seen the horrors and families forever ruined by people riding motorcycle's for fun. From what I've seen GA is just as dangerous. I know wives who banned their husbands from riding motorcycle's after they had kids.
 
LDJones said:
Ditto. It's never presented an issue for me in 38 years.
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I'm not saying it causes a conflict. The Air Safety Institute (AOPA I think) list two ways to enter from the opposite side of the pattern. The way you guys are doing it is preferred. I prefer to use the second method unless there is a lot of traffic in the pattern.

I think a lot of people were doing it for a long time, but saying, "I'm flying over-head and will enter on a teardrop to a 45 for left downwind" is something I didn't start hearing until a few years ago. It was confusing at first. I do think most people at my airport just fly over mid-field and turn into downwind. I understand I need to yield to traffic on a 45 or already on downwind.

29451987972_bb696a3bdf_b.jpg
 
I agree Jack, IF there is no other traffic a turn to downwind is fine. I try to teach the teardrop method but also other ways to enter a traffic pattern.
 
I report overhead.

"Copperhill traffic, 467SA is overhead, will be descending to a right downwind* RWY 20 for a full stop, Copperhill."

And then, when clear of the pattern on the upwind side...

"Copperhill traffic, 467SA descending to a right downwind RWY 20 full stop Copperhill"

Then report when established midfield on the downwind.

I would do the same regardless of the direction from which I was approaching.

Works for me.


*Copperhill has right traffic for 20.
 
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TexDeuce said:
Driving a car is an absolute necessity, flying is not. Not a good comparison.

My buddy is an ER doc and they call people who ride motorcycle's "organ donors". He has seen the horrors and families forever ruined by people riding motorcycle's for fun. From what I've seen GA is just as dangerous. I know wives who banned their husbands from riding motorcycle's after they had kids.
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A car may seem like that to you, but it's not an absolute necessity. Only ~25% of people living in NYC have a drivers license. I have coworkers in Atlanta that don't have a car; adults with children, not teenagers. That shocks me in Atlanta, which is very car centric. One ex-coworker has/had a car, but said they were thinking of selling it as they only filled the tank 3 or 4 times in the prior year. The percentage of 19 year olds with a DL has dropped to 69.5% nationwide.

Spouses "banning" activities is whole 'nother issue. My wife might tell me I'm stupid for doing something dangerous, but other than doing something ridiculously dangerous she would just tell me I'm being stupid. I intentionally never learned to ride a motorcycle because I think I'd kill myself doing it. My vision was that my last thought, while leaned over at high speed in a turn, would be "sand?" :eek:
 
Just seems too much has changed through the years, where some have either forgotten basic stick and rudder flying or didn't grow up on a non-towered field. I'm on the radio listening about 10mi out, and beginning my announcement of intentions inbound giving distance, altitiude and direction/from. If no response, I fly above TP alt, over the field looking for NORDOs (looking for the wind sock anyway?) never assuming the pattern is empty. Opposite to that, when I hear a call from another plane that is 5 miles out, inbound, but doesn't say altitude or direction, that's my queue to ask for more info. If nothing, I fly out of the pattern away from the field until I get a visual. It's just way too simple to fly away, re-group. This accident is very, very sad. Nothing to assume about circumstance. The end result is enough to say there were multiple failures.
 
Pilots don't like talking on the radio, they fly in assuming they will either spot or just listen for everyone else. That might not cause a problem, until you have two of them and they don't spot each other. Another situation could be they don't make enough announcements concerned about jamming up comms; I never thought of it as a near miss, but I had a guy on my tail close enough that I could see facial features and no idea he was there until I called my turn to final and he piped up right after my call saying, "Aircraft Type XXX following Cessna XXX on final." He was already in a 20 degree descending turn with me :eek: when I spun around in the seat to see who was out there (was not straight in final) No idea were he was prior to that, I assume he slipped in behind me on the downwind since I was doing pattern work and previous to that no aircraft were in the pattern or taking off. No other radio calls prior to that.
 
FastEddieB said:
"Copperhill traffic, 467SA is overhead, will be descending to a right downwind* RWY 20 for a full stop, Copperhill."

And then, when clear of the pattern on the upwind side...

"Copperhill traffic, 467SA descending to a right downwind RWY 20 full stop Copperhill"

Then report when established midfield on the downwind.
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This is even more confusing in my opinion. This could mean you're already over downwind and will be descending directly into it. Now you're on the other side of the airport (traffic pattern side) and you're saying again that you'll descend to a right downwind. Where are you? Descending from where? Straight over downwind, or are you now on a 45 and still descending?

If I was crossing over midfield to re-enter on a 45, I would state that. Now I know you're on a 45 at pattern altitude and I know where to look for you.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just don't think most pilots would know what you're communicating.
 
strangebird said:
This accident at a relatively quiet airport, should give every pilot reason to get a heads up attitude and keep your head on a swivel, anyone who is going to an upcoming fly in such as Triple Tree, or any other upcoming fly-in, where there will be a lot of traffic, needs to be sharp, let's all be very safe.
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I learned that early on. I flew the full pattern and was landing into the wind at an uncontrolled airport, & came face to face with a Bonanza doing an unannounced tailwind takeoff. It was quite a scary event. Once I got on the ground I triple checked myself. (Right runway for the wind, radio was working, confirmed with FBO that they heard me & did not hear the Bonanza on the radio.) Now I pay more attention to taxiing aircraft...
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
According to the people who watched it unfold, both planes were on approach to land and one overtook the other.
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Looks to be what might have happened, from the photos you can certainly tell the DA20 was on the bottom of the Bo.
Dav8or said:
CFI 24 year old Taylor Stone-

14332827_1473285818.4805.jpg


Yeah, she spoke Engrish and English.:rolleyes:

There is a gofundme page for her parents and the funeral costs if anybody feels so inclined.

https://www.gofundme.com/TaylorStoneFund
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I didn't personally know her, but knew of her. She was a native from here in Chattanooga. So so sad! :(
 
SkyDog58 said:
One thing for certain, it is a lot easier to spot and avoid traffic when they are on the radio telling you where they are and what they are doing versus hearing nothing from them at all.
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It still shocks me that as safety oriented as the FAA is, they don't make having a radio and making calls mandatory around an airport.
 
midcap said:
It still shocks me that as safety oriented as the FAA is, they don't make having a radio and making calls mandatory around an airport.
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I agree. I love the classic airplanes and I do realize that it could be cost prohibitive to install electrical systems and radios in many of them but I see no problem in requiring them to carry portable radios and a backup battery. I think it is a simple solution.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I agree. I love the classic airplanes and I do realize that it could be cost prohibitive to install electrical systems and radios in many of them but I see no problem in requiring them to carry portable radios and a backup battery. I think it is a simple solution.
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with the prices of things in Aviation, I agree with you. I would never want to see the FAA mandate someone install a radio system in their airplane that was very expensive. Like you said, there should be a mandate on having to have a handheld and having to call out in the pattern. What are we talking about $300 dollars to save some lives?
 
The thing that bothers me about this accident if the reports are true and the aircraft were both really on final.

I can easily understand how you can have a mid air in the pattern like on downwind or base...if you fly long enough I think each one of us has a "too close for comfort" story in the pattern. But on final?

I am of the feeling that aircraft that have the capability to use radios should be making standard pattern calls. I think even the "NORDO is legal" crowd would agree to that. We are all taught to do that in training. We can assume both of these planes had radios because they are not cubs or other typical NORDO aircraft.

How can 2 aircraft call out base and final positions and neither of them pull out of the pattern when they couldn't see the other aircraft? I guess I can accept the fact the pilots couldn't see each other but I can't believe that the radio calls would have been so screwed up.

The only way it makes since to me is if 1 of the planes was on the wrong freq which def could have happened. I'll be VERY interested to read the report on these.

Regardless it is a terrible tragedy and does make you stop and think for a while. Thoughts for the victims and their families.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I agree. I love the classic airplanes and I do realize that it could be cost prohibitive to install electrical systems and radios in many of them but I see no problem in requiring them to carry portable radios and a backup battery. I think it is a simple solution.
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See and avoid, keep your eyes outside especially nearing and around an airport. There's even, from my many years of experience, that there's even plane w/ radios installed that don't or refuse to talk on the radio. So what about them? How are you going to force them to talk? How would you even enforce a requirement for old planes without electrical systems to have and use a handheld? Keep your eyes outside.
 
mscard88 said:
See and avoid, keep your eyes outside especially nearing and around an airport. There's even, from my many years of experience, that there's even plane w/ radios installed that don't or refuse to talk on the radio. So what about them? How are you going to force them to talk? How would you even enforce a requirement for old planes without electrical systems to have and use a handheld? Keep your eyes outside.
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you would think people would not be jerks and give a crap about being safe.
 
It seems to me that pilots should not assume that others are communicating. Always visually check the area. The battery in my handheld is sometimes dead when approaching an airport. So, I always look for others in the pattern and on the runway. Radio communication is a good safety addition to the principle of see and avoid.

As I fly a J-3 Cub, you will never see or hear an alert on any collision avoidance equipment to announce my presence. So please, look outside the aircraft every once in a while.
 
midcap said:
Makes you think the Bo was NORDO?
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79 years old, maybe he thought he was the only one around. I'd guess he did a straight in or entered direct on base and possibly rammed the DA20. That's what it sounds like and I'm just speculating. Hopefully somehow the NTSB can find out something. Pretty sparse out where the airport is located but you never know, someone may have seen what happened.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Makes ya think the DA20 was on the wrong freq.
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Doubt that if they were already doing T&Gs. Even the FBO said they were doing T&Gs which alludes to their transmitting in the pattern. As a CFI at a busy flight school like Falcon I'm sure she would have been big on radio usage.
 
Ya she was probably preoccupied with the student and not paying attention.
 
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