Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Helicopter crash into airliner.

Roller said:
Or just stay out of the immediate approach and departure path of transport category jets
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Wait until you find out there are helicopters flying in Class B airspace all over the country. Not too mention all the goobers flying right under the Class B floor.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I would bet that John Q Public would make his choice based on the same level of misinformation that you are promoting.
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What misinformation?

The fact of the matter is some of those routes get helicopters far too close to 121 traffic, if even the smallest altitude bust will result in a crash that’s not acceptable

The other fact is that the NAS is there to serve the taxpayer, more tax payers will get more benefit from being able to easily fly out of DCA than they will from politicians being able to helicopter around like royalty

Fact, the approach combined with the helicopter route, hard to argue it’s a good route seeing the whole crash and all

Fact, changes need to be made to prevent this from occurring again


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TCABM said:
Way more have died for way less. You can think it stupid all you want, but the data doesn’t support it.
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Flying 121 I can’t really afford your logic

Guess to some VIP training flights are very serious business

What do you believe the data shows?
 
Lindberg said:
Wait until you find out there are helicopters flying in Class B airspace all over the country. Not too mention all the goobers flying right under the Class B floor.
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Been doing this a while, I know



I also know approving a helicopter to cross mid field, or offset parallel, is a completely different animal than a few hundred feet of separation in the approach path
 
Oh....let em fly under the approach at 200 feet.....wake turbulence is a wonderful thing. ;)
 
Dana said:
Depends on the camera. The one in our camper is marginal, the one in my wife's Mazda is better but not great, the one in my new Jeep is very good.
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Yeah, this tech is wild. I have a backup camera on my six year old car that I wouldn't want to ever live without again. Then I get in my FILs 100K Lincoln and it's got a view that completely surrounds the car. Kind of amazing.
 
Roller said:
What misinformation?

The fact of the matter is some of those routes get helicopters far too close to 121 traffic, if even the smallest altitude bust will result in a crash that’s not acceptable

The other fact is that the NAS is there to serve the taxpayer, more tax payers will get more benefit from being able to easily fly out of DCA than they will from politicians being able to helicopter around like royalty

Fact, the approach combined with the helicopter route, hard to argue it’s a good route seeing the whole crash and all

Fact, changes need to be made to prevent this from occurring again
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More taxpayers won’t be able to fly easily out of DCA. DCA is at or over capacity, even without helicopters flying around. And DCA will always be there primarily for the convenience of politicians, even without helicopters flying around.

And if safety is the primary goal, Dulles will always be much safer than DCA.
 
Lindberg said:
What do you believe the data shows? Maybe you can start by telling us how many times that helicopter route has been used since it was created.
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It shows what I have stated a few times, the route and the approach into DCA has a too small a margin

I really don’t care how many times it has been flown anymore than how many times someone drove drunk and nothing happened, some things are just a bad idea, unfortunately nothing happens until something happens
 
172andyou said:
Yeah, this tech is wild. I have a backup camera on my six year old car that I wouldn't want to ever live without again. Then I get in my FILs 100K Lincoln and it's got a view that completely surrounds the car. Kind of amazing.
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What's totally freaking me out is my wife's new car the camera depicts the whole care and all sides and obstructions FROM ABOVE. How do they do that? FROM ABOVE. I can park by watching the image of my car easing between other cars, fitting between the lines, and staying clear of the shrubbery... via an image depicting this from about 15 fee over the car. Maybe THAT's what all those drones are doing....
 
MauleSkinner said:
I assume you’re actually referring to 121.195? If so, note that the regulation doesn’t require the 60% factor upon arrival, only the planned arrival weight and conditions.

Operators may require it, but the reg itself doesn’t.
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Indeed, I did. Good catch.

§ 121.195 Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Landing limitations: Destination airports.​

​
(a) ...​
​
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c), (d), or (e) of this section, no person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane unless its weight on arrival, allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight (in accordance with the landing distance set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the destination airport and the wind conditions anticipated there at the time of landing), would allow a full stop landing at the intended destination airport within 60 percent of the effective length of each runway described below from a point 50 feet above the intersection of the obstruction clearance plane and the runway. For the purpose of determining the allowable landing weight at the destination airport the following is assumed:​
​
(1) The airplane is landed on the most favorable runway and in the most favorable direction, in still air.​
(2) The airplane is landed on the most suitable runway considering the probable wind velocity and direction and the ground handling characteristics of the airplane, and considering other conditions such as landing aids and terrain​
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Oh....let em fly under the approach at 200 feet.....wake turbulence is a wonderful thing. ;)
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That low, they are essentially just a mobile "assumed adverse obstruction". Get 'em over the land where they can fly higher and keep the jets over the water.
 
Lawson_Stone said:
What's totally freaking me out is my wife's new car the camera depicts the whole care and all sides and obstructions FROM ABOVE. How do they do that? FROM ABOVE. I can park by watching the image of my car easing between other cars, fitting between the lines, and staying clear of the shrubbery... via an image depicting this from about 15 fee over the car. Maybe THAT's what all those drones are doing....
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a satellite follows your car with a very big zoom lens. it's definitely not a 'fake' image of the car from above with all the camera views stitched together around it. it's definitely a satellite image of your car.
 
eman1200 said:
a satellite follows your car with a very big zoom lens. it's definitely not a 'fake' image of the car from above with all the camera views stitched together around it. it's definitely a satellite image of your car.
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Do we each get our own satellite following us?
 
This is entertaining and somewhat informative, but until the facts are known and a root cause investigation is completed, those of you essentially saying you think something should be stopped or changed are way jumping the gun; it’s not even 48 hours later. You sound more uninformed about the post-incident process than the media types. Have fun, but a soap-box is unnecessary for most of your audience on POA.
 
geezer said:
PAT25 would have had a visual of red over white for the runway 33 VASI, indicating on glideslope for landing. When I am on the highway on the east side of the river, I always look for the red over red, you are dead............. You can see those lights well off to the sides.

As an annual requalification flight there was not only a previously qualified pilot flying, but a senior check pilot monitoring to see that he did not fly outside the required limitations of that tightly restricted route. 2 highly trained pilots, plus whoever the third might have been, missed estimating their height visually, missed noticing they were in the VASI approach lights, and not over the east edge of the river.

A lot of holes lining up there.

The third person may have been getting an introductory look at the route prior to actually flying it himself. Maybe simply too much chit chat, and not enough looking at instruments and outside view? We will never know, but hopefully, the black box will tell what the radar altitude and pressure altitude were, plus the accuracy of flying the center of the route.

I am a retired Senior Technical Training Supervisor, 5 years in that task, and I see a lot of fails here in this training flight.
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Why do you look at the VASI when you're on the highway? That is useless information, they should always be red over red from the ground. The lenses on the lights change with the angle of the viewer.
Velocity173 said:
You know, unless there’s more audio that shows tower gave a proper traffic call, “do you have the CRJ in sight” is not a traffic call. How’s Pat25 even going to be able to tell a CRJ at night?

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Seems ATC could have provided more position info on the CRJ after the initial advice. Just asking the helo whether they have the CRJ in sight during later calls when both are moving is far less precise when the tracks show a potential collision. Always more helpful when they say "Traffic 5 miles at 2 o'clock"
ldhilljr13 said:
I spent some time listening to DCA Tower this afternoon, and one thing I noticed was them frequently calling out helicopter traffic to the arriving and departing jets. No idea whether this is SOP, but when listening to ATC replays of the accident, I don't recall hearing tower point out the PAT25 traffic to the CRJ (just the other way around).
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Agreed, why is ATC not advising both aircraft?
 
WC’s take on the accident with a quote from former CG pilot who’s flown the route. Not much different than what’s already been speculated.

 
David Loftus said:
Why do you look at the VASI when you're on the highway? That is useless information, they should always be red over red from the ground. The lenses on the lights change with the angle of the viewer.
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Never know, it might turn white one day. Could be exciting!

Actually that was the first sign we had a cracked lens on our old PAPIs years ago. From just the right angle and distance, for a split second, the red would flash to white. Hairline crack in the red lens.
 
Someone did one of the MS flight sim recreations with the data points, interesting perspective if accurate


x.com

t.co t.co

Other goverment helicopters flying that route setting off RAs


That corner of the helicopter routing needs to go or be moved.
 
Roller said:
Flying 121 I can’t really afford your logic

Guess to some VIP training flights are very serious business

What do you believe the data shows?
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The data shows that in 2024, there were 292,000 takeoffs and landings at DCA without a midair between an airplane and a helicopter. Do that math going back to, I guess, 1986, to and that’s a significant number if operations between incidents.

If you grew up in the post-Colgan era, you’ve heard “this won’t happen again”.

You’ve been lied to.
 
Lawson_Stone said:
What's totally freaking me out is my wife's new car the camera depicts the whole care and all sides and obstructions FROM ABOVE. How do they do that? FROM ABOVE. I can park by watching the image of my car easing between other cars, fitting between the lines, and staying clear of the shrubbery... via an image depicting this from about 15 fee over the car. Maybe THAT's what all those drones are doing....
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Yeah, I saw it for the first time and was gobsmacked. That doesn't happen often!
 
Lawson_Stone said:
What's totally freaking me out is my wife's new car the camera depicts the whole care and all sides and obstructions FROM ABOVE. How do they do that? FROM ABOVE. I can park by watching the image of my car easing between other cars, fitting between the lines, and staying clear of the shrubbery... via an image depicting this from about 15 fee over the car. Maybe THAT's what all those drones are doing....
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Here's a fun experiment. Put a piece of contrasting tape on the roof of your car. The next time you use the backup camera, see if the tape appears in the "top down" view.
 
TCABM said:
The data shows that in 2024, there were 292,000 takeoffs and landings at DCA without a midair between an airplane and a helicopter. Do that math going back to, I guess, 1986, to and that’s a significant number if operations between incidents.

If you grew up in the post-Colgan era, you’ve heard “this won’t happen again”.

You’ve been lied to.
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Yep sounds about right … and I bet there were hundreds of thousands of perfectly safe 787 max flights before and after MCAS related crashes ( just two ! ) and look what happened to Boeing …
 
TCABM said:
The data shows that in 2024, there were 292,000 takeoffs and landings at DCA without a midair between an airplane and a helicopter. Do that math going back to, I guess, 1986, to and that’s a significant number if operations between incidents.

If you grew up in the post-Colgan era, you’ve heard “this won’t happen again”.

You’ve been lied to.
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One of the safety culture slides is always the “well that’s what we have always done it”, during your never ending recurrent computer training, that’s never the correct answer lol

I always laughed like “who would think that would be a good idea”

See it all the time, some road intersections, office stuff, and so on, you’ll see something and think that’s a accident waiting to happen, sadly nothing happens until someone breaks their neck on the messed up stairs, or a school bus gets nailed in the intersection.

That airport and ATC practically normalizes RAs and threading a needle for no good reason.

Normalization of deviance - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
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Roller said:
One of the safety culture slides is always the “well that’s what we have always done it”, during your never ending recurrent computer training, that’s never the correct answer lol

I always laughed like “who would think that would be a good idea”

See it all the time, some road intersections, office stuff, and so on, you’ll see something and think that’s a accident waiting to happen, sadly nothing happens until someone breaks their neck on the messed up stairs, or a school bus gets nailed in the intersection.

That airport and ATC practically normalizes RAs and threading a needle for no good reason.

Normalization of deviance - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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Begging the question - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
MauleSkinner said:
And threading the needle won’t go away if you eliminate helicopters.
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Did you watch the same video??

It’s the PAT helicopters who are nearly automatic in their “request visual separation” line, it’s the PAT helicopters who set off RAs, not fixed wing, or even private helicopters constantly busting altitudes and flying too close to the arrivals and departures there.

I’ve flown in that area and had the same “how the heck is this allowed” thought when it came to all the silly state helicopters zipping all over the place

Lindberg said:

Begging the question - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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Well I’d say the conclusion is pretty clear at this point

Humpty Dumpty turned into scrambled eggs and you’re saying it’s not proven if a wall is a good place for a egg to sit
 
Roller said:
Did you watch the same video??

It’s the PAT helicopters who are nearly automatic in their “request visual separation” line, it’s the PAT helicopters who set off RAs, not fixed wing, or even private helicopters constantly busting altitudes and flying too close to the arrivals and departures there.

I’ve flown in that area and had the same “how the heck is this allowed” thought when it came to all the silly state helicopters zipping all over the place
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I didn’t watch the video. But since you obviously didn’t read my post, either, I guess it evens out.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Depth perception has almost nothing to do with visual separation. Probably a little oversimplified, but If the aircraft is moving in your windshield, you’ll miss. If the aircraft is stationary in your windshield, you’ll hit.
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But you have to see the airplane that’s not moving in the windshield.

Having read they were on a NVG training flight is interesting. Trying to pick out an aircraft light source with no relative motion that’s framed against a light saturated city is damn hard to do. NVG’s make light sources miles away look very close sometimes. Of that whole crew was on NVG not seeing the jet doesn’t surprise me at all.
 
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