Controller Mistake at KLGB

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
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VWGhiaBob
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
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Siht happens.... They look out for us.... We look out for them..... :yes:
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
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I wouldn't classify it as a grave error but a mistake that happens all around the country every day. In this case the controller thought they'd have the required separation which was most likely 3,000 ft . They didn't have it so the go around was given. No loss of separation so there's no issue.
 
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VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
Click to expand...

How far down the runway was the other Cessna? Is it automatically unsafe to land on a runway if another aircraft is still on the runway?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
Click to expand...

I don't think that's a "mistake".
In my experience, depending on various factors, they often wait until the following aircraft is just over the threshold before calling a go around.
 
Controller goofed, you noticed in time. No harm, no foul.

Had this happen once when a controller cleared me to take off with another plane on short final. Fortunately, I looked back at the approach end and saw the traffic. No big deal, just an "oops" and apology from the tower.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
Click to expand...

The controller's response makes it sound like an error. How far down the runway was the Cessna when you queried the tower?
 
He might'a been distracted, good thing you saw the conflict. BTW the pilot doesn't need permission to go around in a situation like this it's OK to just do it.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Wouldn't this be considered a controller mistake?

I was cleared to land on runway 25L KLGB behind a Cessna. On short final, I noticed the Cessna was still on the runway with no assurance he'd be off.

About 1000 feet from the numbers, I asked the tower if they'd like me to go around.

The controller said, "Ahhh, yes. Yes! 371CD go around immediately."

Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.

I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
Click to expand...

Long Beach is a training tower, there are occasional mistakes made.
 
vintage cessna said:
How far down the runway was the other Cessna? Is it automatically unsafe to land on a runway if another aircraft is still on the runway?
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I think if you can maintain 3000' of clearance it's legal. Go to Oshkosh, frequently 2 planes rolling at a time.
 
The Cessna was approximately 1,700 feet down the runway when I was on very short final. I could not have landed safely.

I was doing my Flight Review and the instructor hadn't noticed the other plane...he said I handled it well.

In all my years of flying, I've never not been told to go around so close to my flare. If I hadn't noticed the plane (it was hard to see due to glare), it could have gotten very ugly.
 
Henning said:
I think if you can maintain 3000' of clearance it's legal. Go to Oshkosh, frequently 2 planes rolling at a time.
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Sometimes people make a big deal about nothing. If your airplane has an approach speed of 60kts and you are putting it down on the numbers and another airplane is 4000 ft down the runway, what is the issue? You've got more separation between the aircraft than the length of many runways.
 
Reality is if he was 1700' down the runway, you could have landed safely if you were on proper landing energy for most any GA plane, you can put a light 421 on in less than that. Probably not the best move, but if I was in a typical GA plane, it wouldn't really concern me to do it if I was on a good solid final and on energy.
 
I got this at Oshkosh one year:

"Glasair you're cleared for take off runway 36 with a right turn out."
A couple seconds later after I already started rolling I hear "Glasair cancel takeoff clearance! Hold position!" I hit the brakes and look up to see a Cessna passing overhead and landing right in front of me. Stuff happens.
 
Hi Bob.
Part of it is the controller, but it's your responsibility to adjust your speed and make sure you time your landing, and Go around if needed. You do not need the Tower to tell you to go around. KLGB is, and was very busy today, and most weekends, with 25R closed, and spacing can be a problem. TV

VWGhiaBob said:
I'm not saying the controller is responsible for me to see and avoid, but don't they usually watch for these events and send us around early?
Click to expand...
 
Let's not make something out of nothing. The next time a mistake is made the roles might be reversed. They look out for us, we look out for them.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Obviously he missed the fact I was cleared onto a runway that was not ready.
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I have gotten "cleared to land" many times and the controller then will issue a take off clearance to another aircraft holding short on the same runway. Controller is anticipating the spacing and will also usually advise me of such...or cleared to land and there is still another aircraft ahead of me that has not touched down yet.

I never took the words "cleared to land" as meaning there will be zero further activity on the runway between those words and my touchdown.

I would say that the mistake was made in not ensuring he runway was actually clear by time you were on short final, not necessarily the clearance. That is why we ALL have eyes!
 
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Welcome to LGB. Only airport I also always ask for progressive taxi.
 
vintage cessna said:
Is it automatically unsafe to land on a runway if another aircraft is still on the runway?
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I've never had a problem doing this when landing at Oshkosh during the show. It's pretty efficient and can be done safely.

One time there was a Cessna that was #1 to land, and I was #3 on the GPS approach. After he landed he pulled off the runway and came to a complete STOP, and I'm assuming he was doing his checklist before calling ground. Because he had blocked the taxiway, the second cessna landing behind him also turned off at that exit as instructed by tower and his tail was sticking out into the runway. Can you legally continue to land if part of an aircraft is passed the hold short line and you know you can roll past it? I've never understood why we're 'supposed' to come to a complete stop after turning off the runway. It just blocks traffic. You never see the airliners or corporate jets doing this.
 
vintage cessna said:
Sometimes people make a big deal about nothing. If your airplane has an approach speed of 60kts and you are putting it down on the numbers and another airplane is 4000 ft down the runway, what is the issue? You've got more separation between the aircraft than the length of many runways.
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Doesn't bother me, working Ag on a big bug run, you get used to landing with someone on the runway, rolling out or taking off, it never was a problem.
 
Bobanna said:
Two airplanes on an active runway is referred to as a "deal" by controllers, and it is considered to be a bad situation (perhaps an ATC can elaborate on this). Anyway a go-around is always the pilot's option. Period. Keep your eyes open, and don't assume. I've never felt tonally comfortable with a "Position and hold" clearance...I'm happier off the runway, and I explain that I'll expedite from outside the line when cleared for take-off. Fly safely.
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Two aircraft on the same runway isn't a "deal." That's why they have same runway separation (SRS) minimums based on aircraft category. In the OP's case it would be 3,000 ft. In some cases such as military, you can even reduce the SRS minimums to less than standard based in an LOA.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
The Cessna was approximately 1,700 feet down the runway when I was on very short final. I could not have landed safely.

I was doing my Flight Review and the instructor hadn't noticed the other plane...he said I handled it well.

In all my years of flying, I've never not been told to go around so close to my flare. If I hadn't noticed the plane (it was hard to see due to glare), it could have gotten very ugly.
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You can't stop in 1700 feet at a sea level airport? You should be capable of half that.

It's too close for comfort and contrary to separation standards, but absolutely should not have become "ugly."
 
Line up and wait (LUAW) operations have replaced Position and Hold, but I digress. The operation is safe, and allows controllers more flexibility in running a busy operation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with advising local control (the tower controller in charge of runway separation) that you prefer to remain holding short of the runway, with the understanding that the local controller may decide to keep you holding short until an adequate arrival interval exists to facilitate such a departure.

Velocity is 100% correct. Each local controller has different tools, like taxiway distances, to be able to tell if separation exists or not. Without knowing full specifics, it would be impossible to make a judgment call whether or not in the OP's situation separation issue existed or not.

In any case, if the OP as the PIC decided that the spacing was inadequate for the operation, the PIC makes the final call. Going around is always an option.
 
I've had to go around because the plane ahead of me took too long exiting the runway. No big deal. Good practice doing a go around now and then. Not necessarily a controller mistake, but stuff happens.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
BTW the pilot doesn't need permission to go around in a situation like this it's OK to just do it.
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Technically true, but controllers can get pretty ugly about it.

I did a go-around as a student at a busy Class D airport on a Saturday morning, when I saw a plane on the runway I had been cleared to land on. In retrospect, with 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I know that there was plenty of room for me to land -- but I had never seen another airplane on "my" runway, and made the call to go around.

Tower chewed me out pretty good. :yikes: :lol:
 
Next time, if you feel the landing will be safe with the distance remaining to the traffic, ask tower to confirm landing clearance and land.
 
Many times I have been cleared to land whether it was downwind, base, or final and advised a departure prior to my landing.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Technically true, but controllers can get pretty ugly about it.

Tower chewed me out pretty good. :yikes: :lol:
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Well, that wasn't very appropriate of the controller. He or she isn't flying the damn plane. If I feel compelled to do a go around for safety reasons, I will go ahead and do that and he or she can kiss my fat ass. Plus, I'm sure they knew you were a training flight.
 
Sheesh... Lay off the guy. He made a decision in the interest of safety. That's his responsibility as the PIC. I wish more people would do the same.
 
Velocity173 said:
I got this at Oshkosh one year:

"Glasair you're cleared for take off runway 36 with a right turn out."
A couple seconds later after I already started rolling I hear "Glasair cancel takeoff clearance! Hold position!" I hit the brakes and look up to see a Cessna passing overhead and landing right in front of me. Stuff happens.
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Wouldn't the Cesna be the one to go around? After all, you were already occupying the runway. Sounds to me like he FUBARed it all up.

And the high wing for FWB........flying while blind.
 
Be the PIC.....


Folks put way to much faith on controllers. It is still our responsibility, not the controllers, to follow all the regs. and fly safely. If we ball up an airplane inside the class D airspace....it will still be our fault, not the controller's.

The only exception to that is for separation on the "ground"....for ground movement. The controller is responsible for separating traffic on the "ground" not in the air.

The operative word is...."de-conflict" traffic in the air. :rolleyes:
 
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Unit74 said:
Wouldn't the Cesna be the one to go around? After all, you were already occupying the runway. Sounds to me like he FUBARed it all up.

And the high wing for FWB........flying while blind.
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Well, the plane in the air on final has right of way so in that particular mistake at that point in it, the safer move was to have the person on the runway stop.
 
Bobanna said:
Two airplanes on an active runway is referred to as a "deal" by controllers, and it is considered to be a bad situation (perhaps an ATC can elaborate on this). Anyway a go-around is always the pilot's option. Period. Keep your eyes open, and don't assume. I've never felt tonally comfortable with a "Position and hold" clearance...I'm happier off the runway, and I explain that I'll expedite from outside the line when cleared for take-off. Fly safely.
Click to expand...

Having less than the minimum required separation is referred to as a "deal" by controllers. There are a variety of situations where multiple aircraft can simultaneously be on an active runway.
 
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