Cherokee six bush tires

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by David Augspurger, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. David Augspurger

    David Augspurger Filing Flight Plan

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    I have a new to me 78 model cherokee six 300. It has oversize bush tires and no wheel pants.
    The problem I have is that during the takeoff roll the airplane wants to turn left no matter how
    hard I push on the right rudder pedal. If I have a crosswind to the left it is very hard to keep on the runway. Is this a mechanical issue? The ailerons are not very effective until the plane is flying. Most of my experience is in a 182. Will removal of the bush tires and reinstallation of wheel pant help?
    Any ideas?

    Thanks
    David
     
  2. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    Just a WAG ... is the big nosewheel being pushed from the right by the spiraling propwash?

    Have you talked to anyone else with similar equipment on your type airplane?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  3. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Welcome to POA.
    Is the rudder rigged correctly?
     
  4. David Augspurger

    David Augspurger Filing Flight Plan

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    I don't know if the rudder is rigged correctly. Is this a common issue with a six?

    Thanks
    David
     
  5. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Dunno. I believe the rig is not symmetrical so some folks might misrig. In general Pipers should handle crosswinds very well.

    The simplest thing to check first is the trim setting. Make sure it is set for take-off.
     
  6. cowman

    cowman En-Route

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    I don't know anything useful but I'd love to see pictures of a six with bush tires.
     
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  7. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    That was the first thing I thought of too.

    What tire size combinations are allowed with this STC or field approval? Does it have a smaller nose tire or same size as the mains? You might try dropping the nose tire size to something smaller if approved, and see what that does for you.

    First things first however, make sure the rudder trim isn’t rolled all the way one way or something simple like that. Also check the rigging. You need to make sure everything is in spec before you start changing things trying to fix the problem.
     
  8. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    Im not seeing how there could be enough force there. The propwash hitting the tail has a lot of area, and a ton more leverage to work with.
     
  9. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    When you take the nose fairing off their are springs to add to keep the nose tire pointed forward that the fairing did. If you put bigger tires on it you might need to increase the springs. The 6 does have a little P factor that should not be a problem, if it is severe you have a real problem and need to fix it now. Just how big are the tires and how did you put a over sized tire on the nose.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  10. JCranford

    JCranford Pattern Altitude

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    I second that!
     
  11. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    I forgot about the springs. I believe it is unairworthy if the fairing is missing and the springs are not installed.

    I agree there is a real problem and it needs to be determined what that problem is. OP, are you running out of rudder or is it just hard to push?
     
  12. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I am guessing tire pressures are equal on the mains.
     
  13. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

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    Do you have a rudder trim tab? If you do adjust it.

    If you dont, can one be installed?
     
  14. David Augspurger

    David Augspurger Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks for all the ideas. will check it out today. I will also get the tire size.

    Thanks
    David
     
  15. gkainz

    gkainz Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I would also love to see pictures of a Cherokee with 6 bush tires installed? :D
     
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  16. David Augspurger

    David Augspurger Filing Flight Plan

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    Yesterday on takeoff the airplane was turning left on the ground even though I was pushing on the right rudder pedal as hard as I could. I did mange to get it in the air before I ran off the edge of the runway but it was not pretty.
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    Did you have to let up on the rudder once you left the ground? If so, I'd say the nose wheel is mis-rigged.
     
  18. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    What is the position of the rudder trim knob in the cockpit?
     
  19. Agronomist

    Agronomist Filing Flight Plan

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    We need some pictures.... this is all to interesting
     
  20. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The position of the trim knob is just below the throttle quadrant/just above the fuel selector. (snark, snark)
     
  21. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Wheel pants don't affect how a Cherokee flies. There is something badly wrong with the OPs aircraft and he should get it fixed before someone gets hurt.
     
  22. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    touche!
     
  23. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    That is it’s location. Not it’s position per se.
     
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    just to clarify...were you pushing it to the stop, or just as hard as you could?
     
  25. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The knob position doesn't change. The trim indicator position does change.
     
  26. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    OK, how about "is the trim indication on the rudder trim knob centered?"
     
  27. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Doing well, it's almost there, almost. I want you to feel it right here. (insert Peyton Manning image here)
     
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  28. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    ... chicken parm you taste so good ...
     
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  29. David Augspurger

    David Augspurger Filing Flight Plan

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    OK mystery is solved. Went to the hanger today and put the towbar on the nose wheel . When the nosewheel is pointed
    straight ahead the rudder is about an inch to the left. In order to get the rudder to center the nosewheel must be pointed way to the right. Got it set up with the shop on the field to get it adjusted. The rudder also lacks about 3/8 of an inch of hitting the stop on the right side.

    Thanks for all the ideas
    David
     
  30. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    Was flying a lance for a while. No bush tires. One time on rollout this mofo veered hard to the left. I was like "oh, ok, you want to go this way, huh?!?". Since then when I hit 50mph on rollout I give just enough back pressure on the yoke to take the weight off the nose gear. Haven't had the problem since then. I've also adopted that process for the other planes I fly (maybe I should have been doing that all along? Maybe I did, just not that one time?). Not saying that's your issue with those monster tires u got on there but it's worth a try. The 6/300 is pretty effing nose heavy.
     
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  31. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Interesting find. Hope it is just a mis-rig and not a bent linkage. The steering linkages aren't wimpy but there is good reason not to taxi at warp speed.
     
  32. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  33. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Can't stand his commercials.
     
  34. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't think he cares what you think 'Dog!

    BOOM!
     
  35. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Oh, I'm certain he doesn't.

    But he turns me off from the products he is trying to push and I'm sure he has the same effect on many others. That should bother the companies he makes commercials for. I haven't ordered from Papa John's in several years and won't even consider Nationwide Insurance because of him.
     
  36. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well how 'bout dem apples! :eek:
     
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  37. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    That doesn't make sense with what you've been describing. Unless by 1" to the left, you mean the rudder is to the left when looking from the front of the plane. Which means it's actually right rudder.

    If you're using a lot of right rudder pedal when on the ground, and not in the air, I'd expect the rudder to be to the right when the wheel is centered. what would be more interesting is the pedal position when the wheel is straight.
     
  38. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    The problem should have been isolated by doing soft field technique takeoffs. When the nose wheel comes off the ground the rudder should behave normally. There’s your clue.
     
  39. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    LOL. The guy can see the problem on the ground without even getting in the airplane and you say he should fly it to figure it out. Wow.
     
  40. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    He was flying it and didn’t figure it out. The clue was there, so yes.