Checklist Ideas?

What everyone seems to be missing in this discussion is that the checklist will be different for each airplane. The 1945 Aeronca Champ I fly doesn't have much beyond memory items like, "Fuel ON/OFF", "Switch ON/OFF", "Brakes ON/OFF", "Throttle OPEN/CLOSED", "Oil Temperature/Pressure", "Altimeter SET".
The 1982 Cherokee Six, on the other hand, is a different story. It has four fuel tanks and five sumps with one selector switch. It has a fuel totalizer to set before each flight. It has a six-cylinder ECI engine monitor to observe, etc, etc.
The more buttons, knobs and levers you have to play with, the more complicated the checklist becomes.
 
I'm not sure anyone's missed that. Clearly a Citation has a longer checklist (as it should) than a 172.

The issue seemed to be having a checklist to the point of excess, where you're spending more workload on it than on flying the plane.
 
gprellwitz said:
I agree about not getting out of the pattern, but could you please provide a cite for these ceiling limits in Class E (other than for helicopters)? I don't recall having seen them before.:dunno:
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flyingcheesehead said:
Greg means Class G. And he's right, once that's corrected. ;-)
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Yes, I did. :redface: And it has been corrected. :D
 
John,

I agree that more complicated airplanes probably need a longer checklist. But in reality, this isn't the case because the "checklists" for light planes have become instruction manuals instead of checklists. The so-called factory checklist for a plane as simple as a 172 is about 10 times longer than the one I use for the P-Baron and significantly longer than the ones I've seen used for small regional airliners. Checklists for small planes mostly miss the point.

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
John,

I agree that more complicated airplanes probably need a longer checklist. But in reality, this isn't the case because the "checklists" for light planes have become instruction manuals instead of checklists. The so-called factory checklist for a plane as simple as a 172 is about 10 times longer than the one I use for the P-Baron and significantly longer than the ones I've seen used for small regional airliners. Checklists for small planes mostly miss the point.

-Felix
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Sorta.

The size of the checklist is not proportional to the size of the airplane, but (should be) proportional to the proficiency of the pilot.

Larger aircraft are usually flown frequently by experienced pilots.

Many C152/172 sit for months between flights.
 
dmccormack said:
Sorta.

The size of the checklist is not proportional to the size of the airplane, but (should be) proportional to the proficiency of the pilot.

Larger aircraft are usually flown frequently by experienced pilots.

Many C152/172 sit for months between flights.
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No doubt that proficiency should make a difference. With that in mind, though, a certain minimum level of proficiency can be expected. I completely agree that less proficient pilots could use more checklist items, but at the same time, we're not really talking about checklists when we include "Throttle - as required" for takeoff. That's instruction, IMO...
 
sba55 said:
No doubt that proficiency should make a difference. With that in mind, though, a certain minimum level of proficiency can be expected. I completely agree that less proficient pilots could use more checklist items, but at the same time, we're not really talking about checklists when we include "Throttle - as required" for takeoff. That's instruction, IMO...
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I agree completely.

The only justification I can raise for items such as "Mixture -- AS REQUIRED" is to avoid a gotchya by an over-eager whoever who wants to burn the pilot for using a checklist "not based on the POH."
 
For once, Felix and I are in agreement.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Whoops, I didn't see the 1000' ceiling the first time. So you're flying at 500' AGL in 1-2 mile vis? IMHO, even more nuts! And I still think the lesson can be accomplished on a cross country in 3-mile vis (high or no ceiling) up in class E, and be much safer at the same time, especially if IFR.
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It depends on the airplane.
I can fly that in the Champ easily. At 70mph, it takes 45-50 seconds to go one statue mile. Two miles vis is a long time.
 
My checklist philosophy is to only list the relevant and non-obvious stuff. My ''before engine start'' checklist is something like ''chocks removed, control locks/pitot covers/intake covers removed''. I don't list stuff like ''ailerons - checked'' because if you forgot to check the ailerons, it's no big deal really. On the other hand, if you forgot to remove the intake covers, it is a big deal. Checklists that are ran on the ground are written like scripts to follow (yet are trimmed of all excess fat and redundancy), while checklists that are ran in the air are completely trimmed of fat.

My checklist is one piece of 8.5x10 paper that is folded in half. One side has everything leading up to the takeoff, then the other side has all the rest. Sure it's small enough that I could memorize everything on there, but I feel more confortable on short final knowing I didn't forget something stupid like not put the gear down if I did the checklist properly.

I made a checklist for a D55 Baron a few days ago. I've never flown with this checklist, so there are still some changes to be made, if you want to see it, a copy is here: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d876chb_3dvb8w9cd

The original Word document has lines around each checklist, which Google docs doesn't show, so the real deal looks more organized. I also have a few cheat-sheet type things there too, like power settings and V-speeds. Also some notes which are taken straight out of the AFM.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I don't list stuff like ''ailerons - checked'' because if you forgot to check the ailerons, it's no big deal really. On the other hand, if you forgot to remove the intake covers, it is a big deal.
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Hunh?

So items that can kill you are "no big deal"?

Every preflight I've ever done includes a check for security and free movement of all control surfaces -- including ailerons.
 
lmfao..If you don't think the ailerons matter you really need to re-evalute your checklist. I concentrate on the things that'll kill me before I knew what happened and ailerons is *REALLY* high on that list.

That said..I don't use a checklist when I fly.
 
jesse said:
lmfao..If you don't think the ailerons matter you really need to re-evalute your checklist. I concentrate on the things that'll kill me before I knew what happened and ailerons is *REALLY* high on that list.

That said..I don't use a checklist when I fly.
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How about when you take check rides?
 
dmccormack said:
Hunh?

So items that can kill you are "no big deal"?

Every preflight I've ever done includes a check for security and free movement of all control surfaces -- including ailerons.
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I was referring to the checking of the ailerons during the preflight walkaround. Sometime before take-off I always check for free movement of all control surfaces. Its in the checklist I posted. Someone posted a checklist on page 3 or so where they had a preflight walkaround checklist that had things like "ailerons - checked, flaps - checked, rocker arm - checked, rivets - checked, skin - checked'' etc. It's not 100% vital that those things be checked everytime in the same way it's 100% vital that you check that the gear is down before you land, so therefore I don't have it on my checklist. I also don't put items on my checklist that are obvious, like "power - full" on the before takeoff checklist.
 
dsffdssdf said:
I was referring to the checking of the ailerons during the preflight walkaround. Sometime before take-off I always check for free movement of all control surfaces. Its in the checklist I posted. Someone posted a checklist on page 3 or so where they had a preflight walkaround checklist that had things like "ailerons - checked, flaps - checked, rocker arm - checked, rivets - checked, skin - checked'' etc. It's not 100% vital that those things be checked everytime in the same way it's 100% vital that you check that the gear is down before you land, so therefore I don't have it on my checklist. I also don't put items on my checklist that are obvious, like "power - full" on the before takeoff checklist.
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Well, dsffdssdf, I don't check free and correct movement "sometimes," but every time. Even if I've only parked for an hour to grab lunch.

And I insist my students check every time prior to flight.
 
dmccormack said:
How about when you take check rides?
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I use a verbal "checklist" that I don't really consider a checklist. I also flow across the panel. I'm not a paper guy and never have been. I find reading a piece of paper highly distracting.

On my last checkride I started to use a paper checklist and then just tossed it going back to my verbal / flow stuff which is fine. The PTS doesn't say anything about it being written on paper.
 
jesse said:
I use a verbal "checklist" that I don't really consider a checklist. I also flow across the panel. I'm not a paper guy and never have been. I find reading a piece of paper highly distracting.

On my last checkride I started to use a paper checklist and then just tossed it going back to my verbal / flow stuff which is fine. The PTS doesn't say anything about it being written on paper.
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Then you're using a "check" list -- which is a systematic way to verify that what you've done is what you were supposed to do.
 
dmccormack said:
Then you're using a "check" list -- which is a systematic way to verify that what you've done is what you were supposed to do.
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You can take it how you want. Generally people refer to checklist as being paper ..and for some reason..these days that paper must be 22 pages long and you must include the weight of that checklist in the W&B because its so damn thick.

Really. I don't care what its called. What I need to know is in my head and I prefer not to have to distract myself by focusing on a piece of paper.

They work well for some folks..and not so well for others. To each their own :)
 
jesse said:
You can take it how you want. Generally people refer to checklist as being paper ..and for some reason..these days that paper must be 22 pages long and you must include the weight of that checklist in the W&B because its so damn thick.

Really. I don't care what its called. What I need to know is in my head and I prefer not to have to distract myself by focusing on a piece of paper.

They work well for some folks..and not so well for others. To each their own :)
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Well, it does matter what it's called, as the PTS for every rating requires the Examiner to evaluate the "applicant's use of the appropriate check list."
 
jesse said:
You can take it how you want. Generally people refer to checklist as being paper ..and for some reason..these days that paper must be 22 pages long and you must include the weight of that checklist in the W&B because its so damn thick.

Really. I don't care what its called. What I need to know is in my head and I prefer not to have to distract myself by focusing on a piece of paper.

They work well for some folks..and not so well for others. To each their own :)
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Seems like everyone has their own routine that works for them. If I'm working with another pilot (and I'm not PIC), I feel a bit awkward- I want to help but I don't want to get in the way and disturb their flow.
 
SkyHog said:
jesse said:
dmccormack said:
Well, it does matter what it's called, as the PTS for every rating requires the Examiner to evaluate the "applicant's use of the appropriate check list."
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Nope.
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Agreed
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Sorry, guys...

Sport Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-29):
Applicant's Use of Checklists
Throughout the practical test or proficiency check, the applicant is evaluated on the use of an appropriate checklist (if specified by the manufacturer.) Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be either unsafe or impractical. In this case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been accomplished would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.
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Recreational Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-3A):
Applicant’s Use of Checklists
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of an appropriate checklist. Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be either unsafe or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been accomplished would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.
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Private Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-14A):
Applicant's Use of Checklists
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of
an appropriate checklist. Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK
being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the
checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be
either unsafe or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this
case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been
accomplished, would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper
visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.
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Commercial Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-12B ):
Applicant's Use of Checklists
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of
an appropriate checklist. Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK
being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the
checklist, while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be
either unsafe or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this
case, a review of the checklist after the elements have been
accomplished, would be appropriate. Division of attention and proper
visual scanning should be considered when using a checklist.
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Airline Transport Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-5F):
Applicant’s Use of Checklists
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use of
an appropriate checklist. In crew served airplanes, the applicant as PIC
(acting) should coordinate all checklists with the crew to ensure all
items are accomplished in a timely manner. The applicant as acting PIC
should manage the flight to include crew checklist performance,
requiring standard callouts, announcing intentions, and initiating checklist
procedures. If the airplane is a single-pilot airplane, the applicant should
demonstrate CRM principles described as single pilot resource
management (SRM). Proper use is dependent on the specific TASK
being evaluated. The situation may be such that the use of the checklist,
while accomplishing elements of an Objective, would be either unsafe
or impractical, especially in a single-pilot operation. In this case, a
review of the checklist after the elements have been accomplished
would be appropriate. Use of a checklist should also consider visual
scanning and division of attention at all times.
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This looks to me like every rating does indeed require the examiner to evaluate the applicant's use of checklists.
 
jmaynard said:
Sorry, guys...

Sport Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-29):


Recreational Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-3A):


Private Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-14A):


Commercial Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-12B ):


Airline Transport Pilot PTS (FAA-S-8081-5F):


This looks to me like every rating does indeed require the examiner to evaluate the applicant's use of checklists.
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Thanks, Jay. You beat me to it.
 
Sorry, I still disagree, that is not in the PTS.
 
dmccormack said:
Care to offer contrary evidence to support your contention, perhaps?
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Not really.

jmaynard said:
That's why I included the document numbers. Google 'em for yourself. They're all available from the FAA site.
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Too much work. It isn't there. One cannot prove that something doesn't exist when it does not exist.
 
jmaynard said:
That's why I included the document numbers. Google 'em for yourself. They're all available from the FAA site.
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Don't ever expect facts to overcome belief. Or clear language talk to overcome a desire to make words mean what someone would prefer them to mean.
 
Seriously guys.. I was just joking? I know the PTS as well as any of you and what exactly is in it. Dan felt the need to educate me on the word checklist when he knows what I meant...so I thought I'd throw him for a loop :)

Must we always be soooo serious?
 
jesse said:
Seriously guys.. I was just joking? I know the PTS as well as any of you and what exactly is in it. Dan felt the need to educate me on the word checklist when he knows what I meant...so I thought I'd throw him for a loop :)

Must we always be soooo serious?
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I think the problem is that there are folks who would mean it, so it's hard to tell.
 
jesse said:
Seriously guys.. I was just joking? I know the PTS as well as any of you and what exactly is in it. Dan felt the need to educate me on the word checklist when he knows what I meant...so I thought I'd throw him for a loop :)

Must we always be soooo serious?
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Sure Jesse, Are you channeling Kenny now?

Checklists of Death??

















;)
 
Only if they're magenta.
 
dmccormack said:
Well, dsffdssdf, I don't check free and correct movement "sometimes," but every time. Even if I've only parked for an hour to grab lunch.

And I insist my students check every time prior to flight.
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I said ''sometime before take-off'', not ''sometimes before take-off''. :)
 
dsffdssdf said:
I said ''sometime before take-off'', not ''sometimes before take-off''. :)
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Are we talking about secure attachment during the preflight inspection or "Free & Correct" movement before takeoff? Both are quite important.

If you inspect them as part of a flow around the plane as part of preflight, there's no reason for them to be missed. I teach a flow that follows the lines of the plane, counter-clockwise, looking from above to down below. If you stick with the line along the edge of the plane, you'll never miss anything, including the ailerons.

Free and correct movement before takeoff is just as important. You never know if that rental came out of maintenance after having the control cables re-rigged. There's a few incident reports from failing to properly inspect for correct movement or for binding in the controls. It shouldn't be overlooked and it dang sure shouldn't be treated like you're mixing pudding with a yoke or stick.
 
KennyFlys said:
Are we talking about secure attachment during the preflight inspection or "Free & Correct" movement before takeoff?
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I do a "secure attachment" and "Free & Correct" check during the preflight inspection, so I don't see the difference you do. Part of my aileron and elevator preflight includes moving the surfaces and looking for the correct indications on the yoke and on the opposite aileron.

(back to the topic of personal checklists...) My "free and correct" inside-the-airplane checklist item appears before engine start. It's part of putting on my seatbelt, adjusting my seat, strapping on the kneeboard-du-jour (if I'm using one that day) and making sure that everything moves freely - more to do at that point with bumping my leg with the yoke than with the binding of the controls.

I do have a before-takeoff "free and correct" check as an SOP, but it's more of a quick confirmation of the earlier check which is itself partially a confirmation of the "free and correct" movement I do during the pre-flight walk-around.
 
KennyFlys said:
Are we talking about secure attachment during the preflight inspection or "Free & Correct" movement before takeoff? Both are quite important.

If you inspect them as part of a flow around the plane as part of preflight, there's no reason for them to be missed. I teach a flow that follows the lines of the plane, counter-clockwise, looking from above to down below. If you stick with the line along the edge of the plane, you'll never miss anything, including the ailerons.

Free and correct movement before takeoff is just as important. You never know if that rental came out of maintenance after having the control cables re-rigged. There's a few incident reports from failing to properly inspect for correct movement or for binding in the controls. It shouldn't be overlooked and it dang sure shouldn't be treated like you're mixing pudding with a yoke or stick.
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The way you are proposing (before takeoff check) pretty much only works on aircraft with a rear window.


Trapper John
 
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