Checklist Ideas?

[Ted]

I wish a couple folks would get it through their VERY thick skulls

 

[KennyFlys]

Read the facts...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=424470&postcount=39

If you can help, great. If you can't, let it be.

 

[Everskyward]

If you can help, great. If you can't, let it be.

You're expecting too much if you want us to keep focusing on your checklist and not start making comments about checklists in general.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

There's a few of you who are making me flipping sorry I brought up the subject. In fact, I am sorry I brought it up.

Ken, with all due respect, you may want to grow a thicker skin. :smile: You have to expect what happened to happen.

Just pick out the grain and blow away the chaff. Take the good and leave the bad.

 

[KennyFlys]

You're expecting too much if you want us to keep focusing on your checklist and not start making comments about checklists in general.

I don't think they were all "in general" as can be shown in a few posts.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ken, with all due respect, you may want to grow a thicker skin. :smile: You have to expect what happened to happen.

Just pick out the grain and blow away the chaff. Take the good and leave the bad.

You mean, accept there are bird brains among the intelligent? Okay, I'll go along with ya.

 

[sba55]

You mean, accept there are bird brains among the intelligent? Okay, I'll go along with ya.

Yes. Otherwise, online forums are just frustrating.

Since you can't remove items from the existing checklist, here's one I might add (I wouldn't add this to my checklist because it's a flow item, but maybe it's useful to reinforce this for students): Final walkaround - completed. Make sure the plane's tie-downs have been removed, doors are closed, tow bar is stored, nothing's missing.

-Felix

 

[Everskyward]

I don't think they were all "in general" as can be shown in a few posts.

No, but you asked for "checklist ideas" and then got upset because some people's ideas are different than yours.

 

[KennyFlys]

No, but you asked for "checklist ideas" and then got upset because some people's ideas are different than yours.

Yes, and that included adapting to what I was required to have. More than a few were talking down check lists or what I was doing when my goal was to make the best of what was possible.

Telling me I'm overdoing it or saying I should add a wheel to roll the list to the plane is far from productive. Or, they are simply ignoring what I originally said. Sorry, but it went a direction that just wasn't necessary. This thread as been pretty much a wasted effort. I was a fool for thinking more would come of it.

 

[KennyFlys]

Since you can't remove items from the existing checklist, here's one I might add (I wouldn't add this to my checklist because it's a flow item, but maybe it's useful to reinforce this for students): Final walkaround - completed. Make sure the plane's tie-downs have been removed, doors are closed, tow bar is stored, nothing's missing.

-Felix

That's done, now. But, it starts with an overall look at the aircraft as they walk up to it. Some things stick out from a distance better than when you're on top of it. Likewise, I have them step back between each section and look around as well as be aware of other activity on the ramp. Once the external check is done, the wheels still can't be inspected very well so the plane is rolled forward a few feet to inspect one main tire then rolled back to inspect the other main. After that, a final walk around to include the fuel caps are in the right direction.

If for any reason they have to walk away from the plane, tie down at the wing struts but not the tail. The pad eye won't drag as well as a cinder block should they ever forget it.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Yes, and that included adapting to what I was required to have.

That is fine, in and of itself.

More than a few were talking down check lists or what I was doing when my goal was to make the best of what was possible.

Well,

Telling me I'm overdoing

No it's not. It is exactly what you were asking for.

it or saying I should add a wheel to roll the list to the plane is far from productive.

Well, that definitely is not productive.

Sorry, but it went a direction that just wasn't necessary.

That is your opinion. Remember what I said about wheat and chaff?

This thread as been pretty much a wasted effort.

Not really. You got some good advice, some constructive criticism, and some garbage. But YOU have to sift it into its piles. Just because some of it isn't what you wanted to hear does not mean it is a wasted effort.

I was a fool for thinking more would come of it.

What would be foolish is if you threw the whole thread out and didn't at least consider what was being said.

Now, for my two cents worth. What you are trying to do is admirable. But what you want to include goes WAY beyond the scope of a checklist. ALL that should be in a checklist are those things that are REQUIRED to be in a checklist plus maybe some killer items that may be on the airplane that didn't come from the factory. How they are arranged can be left up to the end user, but to add stuff that does not NEED to be there really defeats the purpose of the checklist.

Remember also what I said about growing thicker skin.

 

[texasplt]

Sound like you are devloping a crutch to cover things missed during instruction/training instead of a checklist.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Sound like you are devloping a crutch to cover things missed during instruction/training instead of a checklist.

Wow. You LIKE throwing gasoline on the fire?

 

[KennyFlys]

Sound like you are devloping a crutch to cover things missed during instruction/training instead of a checklist.

Please read what I wrote in earlier post. Some 80% of this list is not my call.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Please read what I wrote in earlier post. Some 80% of this list is not my call.

Ken, with all due respect again, it is the OTHER 20% that the people are talking about.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ken, with all due respect again, it is the OTHER 20% that the people are talking about.

The other 20% is filling the backside of otherwise blank pages.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The other 20% is filling the backside of otherwise blank pages.

Well, THAT hasn't been very clear in the OP or subsequent. However, in the long run, that may confuse the issue. The best checklist are the ones that are Clear and Concise without a whole lot of unnecessary stuff on it.

 

[KennyFlys]

Well, THAT hasn't been very clear in the OP or subsequent. However, in the long run, that may confuse the issue. The best checklist are the ones that are Clear and Concise without a whole lot of unnecessary stuff on it.

Though not directly noted on the original post, I eluded to several blank pages after the peformance data is placed on many of them.

Later, I was very specific:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=424470&postcount=39

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Though not directly noted on the original post, I eluded to several blank pages after the peformance data is placed on many of them.

Later, I was very specific:

Ok, I didn't wade through all of that. I stand corrected. But I also stand by my last post.

And just to add to it, I think adding anything else would be a distraction. Make the checklist a checklist and leave the rest off of it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

FWIW, performance data has no place on a "checklist". If one wants to create a "quick reference" list with performance data, V-speeds, etc then go for it. But they are two entirely different items with different purposes.

 

[KennyFlys]

FWIW, performance data has no place on a "checklist". If one wants to create a "quick reference" list with performance data, V-speeds, etc then go for it. But they are two entirely different items with different purposes.

Tell that to Cessna. They produce a $40 check list with performance charts. I'm stuck with including it.

Here's a PDF of the Skylane Nav III published by Cessna. I don't have the 172S Nav II in a PDF.

 

[wabower]

The same subject has been debated with every aircraft and training organization with which I have come into contact, with almost identical arguments and acrimony.

The training organizations will in most cases prefer to use the manufacturer's materials to deflect any liablity that might result from using another version. What would I do? I would copy the check list verbatim on my company's letterhead rather than the manufacturers' letterhead, laminate them and put copies in all of the airplanes. Students could obtain a copy by whatever logical means are available, such as the print command.

If possible, I would file this checklist that "the company had developed for training purposes" with the FSDO to obtain specific approval for my company's use. If questions arose from the Fed, I would use the manufacturer's list to prove that our check list was similar. Several techniques can be used to make the company's document "original". Now I'm legal to fly with good checklists, and have eliminated the cost and availability issues.

We successfully used the "flows" depicted in the manufacturers' materials to teach students what they should know. Sitting in the left seat with your right hand on the floor between the seats (or as far back as possible) and touching everything as you move your hand forward and up the pedestal and around the panel in a clockwise flow will cause the pilot to see and touch everything in the cockpit and learn why it's there, what it's telling him and how it should look or be positioned. Once that has been done, the checklist simply provides the "done" list. Even if it is awkward and out of logical sequence (as most are) a student can whip through it if the flow checks covered everything that was necessary.

At Gulfstream initial training (FSS Savannah) they presented every incoming classmember with a multi-page word document of word files and scanned graphs and charts called the "Captain's nuggets of knowledge." This allowed them to give us all the stuff that you've been talking about so it would be available (if we wanted it) in the cockpit, but it wouldn't confuse or detract from the use of the manufacturer's list in the cockpit. I got a copy in word format and continued to add to it during the years I flew and taught in the airplane.

I later adapted that same pattern to the airplanes in which I have taught, and found it to be a slick way to teach the pilots what they should know, give them the supplemental information they should know in a usable format and still use the manufacturer's stuff as appropriate (and helpful for CYA.) YMMV.

 

[dmccormack]

One benefit of requiring students to developing personal checklists is the requirement to reallt think through the flow, the locations, the purpose, and the priority of each item.

For primary students, a checklist is a do list for a while.

So what?

They'll learn the sequence eventually (though for some it takes longer than others. So what?)

It really depends how often you're flying.

I mentioned earlier I've made checklists for each airplane I've flown. I include pages dedicated to performance charts, emergency ops, etc.

But those pages are a reference, not necessarily a checklist.

Once I've flown an airplane a few times the "check" list gets reviewed to make sure the flow actions were all correct. If I'm flying frequently, the checklist is referenced for pre-takeoff checks and pre-approach (sometimes). I'll glance through during cruise as a refresher.

If it's been a few weeks, I pay a bit more attention to the checklist -- after I've done things according to flow.

 

[Lance F]

I think that anyone who within the first few lessons doesn't instinctively know without looking at a checklist that the way to abort a takeoff is "Throttle - Idle, Brakes - Apply" shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane.

Don't forget "Horn-Silence"

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Hey Kenny, why the 22-page format? Is it because you're printing this as a booklet? I haven't seen you say why it must be 22 pages, yet you seem fixated on that size, so there must be a driving reason... I'm genuinely curious what that is, as I don't recall seeing it mentioned here yet.

 

[TMetzinger]

But those pages are a reference, not necessarily a checklist.

That's what I consider my "checklists" to be. They allow me to review stuff in advance (what's the go around procedure for THIS airplane that I haven't flown in two months, since it's different than the airplane I flew this morning?), and after I do a particular sequence or flow, they let me check and see if I've forgotten anything.

So maybe we're getting tripped up by semantics.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think that anyone who within the first few lessons doesn't instinctively know without looking at a checklist that the way to abort a takeoff is "Throttle - Idle, Brakes - Apply" shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane.

Someone once asked me why the "engine failure during takeoff roll" is not in my personal checklist. You just posted my answer.

 

[dmccormack]

That's what I consider my "checklists" to be. They allow me to review stuff in advance (what's the go around procedure for THIS airplane that I haven't flown in two months, since it's different than the airplane I flew this morning?), and after I do a particular sequence or flow, they let me check and see if I've forgotten anything.

So maybe we're getting tripped up by semantics.

Exactly right.

It may be in this month's Flying magazine, but someone recounts doing a BFR for Dick Collins. When Collins started working through his pre-takeoff checks, the CFI said, "Where's your checklist?"

Collins replied, "Right here" as he pointed at the panel.

I'm guessing as many hours as he had in 401RC, he didn't need no steenkin' paper checklist...

 

[dmccormack]

Someone once asked me why the "engine failure during takeoff roll" is not in my personal checklist. You just posted my answer.

I keep that stuff in mine only because it's in the POH, and I've had more than one DE ask to review my checklist.

It's definately a CYA item, so I agree it's a waste of paper.

But last time I checked, trees grow back.

 

[KennyFlys]

Hey Kenny, why the 22-page format? Is it because you're printing this as a booklet? I haven't seen you say why it must be 22 pages, yet you seem fixated on that size, so there must be a driving reason... I'm genuinely curious what that is, as I don't recall seeing it mentioned here yet.

I've mentioned it somewhere in the cavernous areas of this thread. I'm required to have all of each list on the same face of the sheet so there's no flipping over in the middle of a given procedure.

I can place performance and other data on the backside but not the actual lists. The actual Cessna-published, stand-alone check list has 26 sheets with the lists running from side to side. So, I have this compacted down from there with using only one face.

It will be in booklet form and spiral bound at the top.

 

[KennyFlys]

Someone once asked me why the "engine failure during takeoff roll" is not in my personal checklist. You just posted my answer.

I make it part of the departure briefing I require them to cite from time to time. Were it not for the hard-boiled egg I work for, it wouldn't be in this list.

It was a battle finally getting him to let me produce a list.

 

[jesse]

22 pages? Seriously? There is no way in hell I'd use a 22 page check-list on a C-172...I'd walk..RUN away from any FBO or instructor that asked me to do so. Do you seriously want your students paging through their 22 page MANUAL (huge distraction) so that they can figure out something they should already know?

If your checklist needs its own checklist to succesfully navigate it...you might know it's too big.

Check-list ....not extremely detailed manual.

I'd much rather just stick to a flow/verbal checklist on something like a 172. No reason to turn something simple into a space shuttle.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kenny - I think you *could* be doing a very good thing - But you should not call it a checklist. I like the "Captain's Nuggets of Knowledge." And if you're not calling it a checklist, maybe you wouldn't be stuck with your school owner's limitations thereon.

 

[dmccormack]

Kenny - I think you *could* be doing a very good thing - But you should not call it a checklist. I like the "Captain's Nuggets of Knowledge." And if you're not calling it a checklist, maybe you wouldn't be stuck with your school owner's limitations thereon.

Agreed.

As Tim said earlier -- it's a semantics debate.

A "check list" is a way to verify what's been done (once you can do what's the be done from memory)

The longer self-made booklets we're describing aren't merely checklists -- they are bound summaries of SOPs, extracts from the POH, Performance Charts, and Helpful aids.

It's a Very Good Thing to go through the exercise of gathering and typing up all this data.

 

[wabower]

A common complaint about the manufacturer's checklist is that they "are OK for flying the plane, but not so good for flying the trip".

A frequent example is that company check lists typically contain CHECK ATIS, etc. as the last item on the cruise check (where I prefer it) or the beginning of the descent check (where the crew starts to get busy again and find they should have done it earlier).

The manufacturers' lists typically don't include such information, so pilots/ operators are prone to develop their own materials and "gouges". The part 142 training centers acknowledge that operators are legally permitted to use their own materials, and only require that those be submitted in writing by the head of the flight department prior to training.

Some would argue that a student pilot who's never seen an airplane up-close before cannot possibly know or care about these distinctions. Others will counter that the pilot will normally check ATIS on every return from the practice area, so the habit should be ingrained from the get-go, and included in the student's check list.

I finid it somewhat comical that the check-list for my 1960 airplane and many others of its generation are printed on the instrument panel or sunvisor, and if printed out would be something less than 1/4 page. The current version for the same airplane requires 20-something pages.

What's wrong with this picture?

 

[john smith]

Ken, instead of 5.5x8.5, I suggest using 5x8 blank index cards available from any office supply store. They are stiffer, cheaper and easier to come by the 5.5x8.5.
SPORTY's sells a four hole punch which fits the same binder rings as NACA charts use.
I have been making my own checklists this way for the past 10 years. Print on both sides (duplex) to reduce the number of cards.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I keep that stuff in mine only because it's in the POH, and I've had more than one DE ask to review my checklist.

It's definately a CYA item, so I agree it's a waste of paper.

But last time I checked, trees grow back.

The problem isn't waste of paper. The problem is not using the checklist.

One of the advantages of rolling your own is simplification - you can condense or remove the stuff the manufacturer or flight school is unwilling to leave out.

You're right. It's a CYA item - for the flight school or the manufacturer. For a lot of pilots, it's unnecessary stuff among other unnecessary stuff that I'd bet leads a lot of pilots to skip and miss things that are important.

You might have the patience and self-discipline to read every line of the checklist. Others don't. The best example I have is of a pilot doing a HP transition in a 182. He was very used to using - and ignoring - the overly detailed checklist the flight school used. The result was that until the third lesson he never "remembered" to close the cowl flaps. Looking at the checklist -which was open in front of him - didn't even cross his mind.

 

[john smith]

The result was that until the third lesson he never "remembered" to close the cowl flaps. Looking at the checklist -which was open in front of him - didn't even cross his mind.

Especially if they are a pilot who flew Piper's and is transitioning to Cessna's!

 

[KennyFlys]

To clarify a few things, the format is 8.5x8.5, spiral bound on the narrow edge. The media is a 67 lb card stock that will feed through my laser printer.

All of the actual lists are on one side of each sheet. With that, it's still fewer sheets than the 26 sheets that makes up the original Cessna check list. The only thing on the flip-side of the sheets is the performance data and airspeeds. There is more data for quick reference to area airports with frequencies, etc. But, the entire thing will be less than of card stock the original Cessna list.

That's what I have to work with. No more, no less. I can't change what's there.

I'll push it as much as any other check list. I'll push memory and use of those procedures. Most will be taught as flows to be backed up with a list when possible.

What I have may not please a lot of folks on this board. But, my goal is to place a list in my student's hands, not please a bunch of folks I'm not teaching and responsible for. Sorry, but that's how it is.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Especially if they are a pilot who flew Piper's and is transitioning to Cessna's!

It was Cessna pilot.