CFI Training - Sideloading

TVProducer

TVProducer

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TVProducer
Hey all,

so I have begun my CFI training and I adapted quite quickly to flying and doing the maneuvers in the air without much issue but my landings have been abysmal. Today I was sideloading the right side and had too much right rudder then this afternoon the opposite and too much left. I think another thing causing this is the fact I’m not looking straight ahead but about 5 degrees left at the center of the cowling. I have tried the low approach method and it didn’t seem to help much either. I know this is a very common problem when transitioning to the right seat that pilots have but boy is it frustrating feeling like I’m learning to land again. I have about a month until my CFI Checkride and I’m sure I’ll have it down by then but any tips will be appreciated!
 
Everybody’s brains work differently (and mine works more differently than most), but I quit looking at the cowling years ago, and just watch the centerline track towards my feet.
 
You’re not alone with your struggles. I’ve worked with a lot of CFI students and learning the landing sight picture from the right seat has troubled many. I’ve always suspected that the trouble stemmed from people trying to apply the sight picture they’re accustomed to seeing when sitting left of centerline to flying from the right seat.

If you continue to struggle, have an instructor or a trusted pilot sit in the left seat and do some takeoffs and landings. Have that person tell you when the airplane is straight or have them straighten it and then try to remember what that sight picture looks like. It may feel wrong for a while but it eventually gets better.
 
mondtster said:
It may feel wrong for a while but it eventually gets better.
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Best my my instructor ever said to me is "it is an illusion" point the plane a bit sideways until you find out how much sideways makes it track straight down the runway after you touch down. If the plane tracks straight you touched down straight no matter which way you think you were pointed.

Brian
CFIIG/aSEL
 
Some Huey gunship pilots told me that they used a china marker (aka "grease pencil) to put a mark on the windshield as a gun sight. Crude but effective. Those cockpits are almost six feet wide. The china marker came out again when a non-pilot was receiving unauthorized flight training. The horizon was traced on the inside of the windshield and the non-pilot was told to line this up with the real horizon. A vertical line was added to indicate 12 o'clock if needed.
Sounds weird but it was effective. The lines usually were not needed on subsequent flights. You should be OK with your experience.
 
The guy who taught me to fly from the right seat told me to just align the centerline with my left leg. It worked for me. Everyone’s a little different.
 
Larry in TN said:
Since you're studying to be a CFI, what would you do with a student who was landing with the plane not properly aligned with the runway?
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First I’d demonstrate it properly so they could attain what was right. Then I’d have them control the rudder while I controlled the aileron in a low approach. I’d talk them through it as we conducted the approach, more right rudder, less right rudder. Then I’d have them begin to try to put it together.
 
No useful suggestions, except to say I know exactly what you're talking about!
When I started training to fly from the right seat, it was about 5-10 hours before I could completely shake that "gosh I land like a noob and feel like an idiot" feeling, and rudder alignment took the most practice.
I think the "align with your leg, not the cowling" suggestion is a good one.
 
Try closing your right eye….
 
TVProducer said:
Hey all,

so I have begun my CFI training and I adapted quite quickly to flying and doing the maneuvers in the air without much issue but my landings have been abysmal. Today I was sideloading the right side and had too much right rudder then this afternoon the opposite and too much left. I think another thing causing this is the fact I’m not looking straight ahead but about 5 degrees left at the center of the cowling. I have tried the low approach method and it didn’t seem to help much either. I know this is a very common problem when transitioning to the right seat that pilots have but boy is it frustrating feeling like I’m learning to land again. I have about a month until my CFI Checkride and I’m sure I’ll have it down by then but any tips will be appreciated!
Click to expand...

Check if you are left eye dominant or right eye dominant. It may make a difference. If you are left eye dominant, and you are flying from the right seat, you may have to turn your head sideways.
 
Maxnr said:
Some Huey gunship pilots told me that they used a china marker (aka "grease pencil) to put a mark on the windshield as a gun sight. Crude but effective. Those cockpits are almost six feet wide. The china marker came out again when a non-pilot was receiving unauthorized flight training. The horizon was traced on the inside of the windshield and the non-pilot was told to line this up with the real horizon. A vertical line was added to indicate 12 o'clock if needed.
Sounds weird but it was effective. The lines usually were not needed on subsequent flights. You should be OK with your experience.
Click to expand...
I do that with tailwheel students.
Some tailwheel would help the OP as well.
When I started my CFI I had a LOT less trouble than some candidates because I was also flying centerline in the Piper Cub and was already used to using my left hand on the throttle and right hand on the stick. Simple transition to right hand on the yoke.
 
I find that pilots transitioning from side by side to tandem seating often have similar issues as they are used to seeing the nose point to the right while landing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
sarangan said:
Check if you are left eye dominant or right eye dominant. It may make a difference. If you are left eye dominant, and you are flying from the right seat, you may have to turn your head sideways.
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I’m right eye dominant
 
TVProducer said:
First I’d demonstrate it properly so they could attain what was right. Then I’d have them control the rudder while I controlled the aileron in a low approach. I’d talk them through it as we conducted the approach, more right rudder, less right rudder. Then I’d have them begin to try to put it together.
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I've never tried splitting controls like that. It might work. Can't really say.

Demonstration is definitely an important tool and don't be afraid to do so multiple times. i.e. demo, student practices several times, demo again, etc. The student needs to see the picture and you, as the CFI, can show it to him.

Another technique I've used successfully in cases like this is to tell the student to OVER correct. i.e. he lands with the nose displaced to the left every time. I keep telling him to use more right rudder/bring the nose further right, but he never brings it enough to the right. I then tell him to put the nose TOO FAR to the right. The idea is to get him to go past what he things is the right position for the nose. Assure the student that if it's really too far you're there to intervene. What usually happens is they succeed in getting it about right because "about right" looks like "too far" to them. If they succeed in going "too far" then it should be easier for them to find that correct point in between. You break down the wall that is preventing them from going far enough.

As to your problem, you know what "not enough" looks like so stop doing "not enough". You have to progressively push into the "too much" territory until you find "just right".
 
I will admit that I am puzzled by this thread. I guess, because I have never had this problem. Nor has the number of other pilots that I have flown with, as PIC or CP. One major reason is because when the crew meets in the AM over coffee, The question "What seat do you want today?" is asked. There seems to be a lot of seat shifting ongoing on a regular basis. Resulting in a climate of One seat is as good as the other.
My personal belief is that any discomfort will soon be outgrown. Very soon. To be replaced by "Wonder why others are having trouble."
 
Maxnr said:
I will admit that I am puzzled by this thread. I guess, because I have never had this problem. Nor has the number of other pilots that I have flown with, as PIC or CP. One major reason is because when the crew meets in the AM over coffee, The question "What seat do you want today?" is asked. There seems to be a lot of seat shifting ongoing on a regular basis. Resulting in a climate of One seat is as good as the other.
My personal belief is that any discomfort will soon be outgrown. Very soon. To be replaced by "Wonder why others are having trouble."
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I would tend to agree, since before I started working on my CFI, I had been flying left seat, right seat, front seat, and back seat.

on the other hand, that is absolutely not the norm. I know pilots who struggle with right traffic instead of left, and pilots who struggle as much with putting their left hand on the throttle as they do finding the sight picture from the “other” seat. When my brother started flying a tandem, stick-controlled airplane, he had to put his left hand on the stick and cross his right hand onto the throttle initially. And then there’s the whole, “I don’t like Luscombes, because a stick in your left hand is just wrong.”

but as you say, it doesn’t generally take long to adjust.
 
I’ve done run on landings, but landing that fast on wheels, noooope
 
MauleSkinner said:
I And then there’s the whole, “I don’t like Luscombes, because a stick in your left hand is just wrong.”
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I had the same feeling. I was in the process of rebuilding a Luscombe 8A back then. My experience was like yours. I flew some types that you had power in your right hand, pitch and roll in your left. I had learned in a Cub that was just opposite. I had habits dug in deep. Rebuild was almost done and I was trying to find a Luscombe CFI somewhere. Came up dry for the whole state of Texas.
One day, I said to myself "Let's try her out." Didn't even have the fairings installed when I started taxiing around. It took about ten or fifteen minutes of this when I realized that "Shucks! This baby is MINE!"
 
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Maxnr said:
I will admit that I am puzzled by this thread. I guess, because I have never had this problem. Nor has the number of other pilots that I have flown with, as PIC or CP. One major reason is because when the crew meets in the AM over coffee, The question "What seat do you want today?" is asked. There seems to be a lot of seat shifting ongoing on a regular basis. Resulting in a climate of One seat is as good as the other.
My personal belief is that any discomfort will soon be outgrown. Very soon. To be replaced by "Wonder why others are having trouble."
Click to expand...

trust me… I’m puzzled as well. How can a mere 3 feet affect my landings so much that I’m sideloading it. Manuevers really no problem but something about the sight picture is messing me up. I do agree I think with a few more hours I’ll get used to it.
 
TVProducer said:
trust me… I’m puzzled as well. How can a mere 3 feet affect my landings so much that I’m sideloading it. Manuevers really no problem but something about the sight picture is messing me up. I do agree I think with a few more hours I’ll get used to it.
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3 feet sideways, targeting across a cowling point that’s 6 feet in front of where you used to sit is a 30-degree change in heading. Even if you knock half of that out, it’s still significantly crooked.
 
MauleSkinner said:
3 feet sideways, targeting across a cowling point that’s 6 feet in front of where you used to sit is a 30-degree change in heading. Even if you knock half of that out, it’s still significantly crooked.
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When you put it that way….. now I don’t feel so bad haha
 
Maxnr said:
I had the same feeling. I was in the process of rebuilding a Luscombe 8A back then. My experience was like yours. I flew some types that you had power in your right hand, pitch and roll in your left. I had learned in a Cub that was just opposite. I had habits dug in deep. Rebuild was almost done and I was trying to find a Luscombe CFI somewhere. Came up dry for the whole state of Texas."
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Ha!
 
Hey everyone! Today I nailed all my landings normal, short, soft, and power off 180 from the right. I realized I was looking across to the spinner of the cowling instead of straight ahead. As soon as I did that my landings went back to normal!
 
Maxnr said:
Nor has the number of other pilots that I have flown with, as PIC or CP.
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or maybe they’re all past it and won’t admit they ever had the problem. Nah, pilots would never do that.

it’s sight picture. Moving to the right seat changes it and you have to relearn. If you picked it up quick or “never” experienced it, great for you.
 
TVProducer said:
Hey everyone! Today I nailed all my landings normal, short, soft, and power off 180 from the right. I realized I was looking across to the spinner of the cowling instead of straight ahead. As soon as I did that my landings went back to normal!
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Even better - now you know what to teach your students! Teach them to look straight ahead and put themselves on the centerline, not the nose of the airplane. You've discovered the best thing about the transition to the right seat!
 
Yea it’s surprising how much it throws ya off! I was in the right seat of the benign 172 and gave it a shot, I was surprised how much it threw me off. It looked like a nose wheel only pilot landing ;)
 
I always was a huge fan of flight simming. If you have a beefy enough computer, you can get Flight Sim 2020 and go to General Options/Camera and change the horizonal picture of the camera from 50 to around 70 or 75. That puts you in the CFI seat. Then just do some for free flying until you get used to it.

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