Cessna 310 Down in Boca Raton

best data point I've seen yet (it's amazing how much cameras there are in this world now, wild). Skid is obvious, rudder surface deflection, no apparent (to me) presence of external lock, able to maintain wings level at high enough speed. I'm assuming cables control the 310 rudder? Some redditors suggest cables jumping the pulley, or things backing out jamming the thing? It's clear to me that a locked center rudder in the 310 with engines operating would be perfectly landable. This is not that, appears a jammed while deflected control situation.
Also, any 310 drivers care to comment on the gear position? Right seems not locked, but it may be parallax from the camera angle. Sidebar, it's also amazing to see how prominent that retractable step is when it's not stowed.
 
schmookeeg said:
Yeah I know we have the benefit of hindsight and the ultimate outcome, but if i had enough control to move the plane towards water, it's probably the last thing I'd consider.
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It's a tough call. No good options, just bad and worse. I would not be keen on ditching in the ocean with my granddaughter inside. With that little control, high odds of catching a wingtip and cartwheeling. Though rescue would not be an issue ... there is as much recreational boat traffic in that area as any coastline in the world.

But we all talk about assuming the insurance company owns the plane. This is a pretty damn good illustration of that conundrum.

Eight miles west you have this. That field is 20 miles in diameter.

wetlands.PNG
 
Has to be the rudder trim? No? What force would it take to hold the rudder full deflection in flight with a centered trim tab?
 
bonefishpete said:
Has to be the rudder trim? No? What force would it take to hold the rudder full deflection in flight with a centered trim tab?
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But even with the trim stuck hard over, surely two grown men pushing with both legs would be able to overpower it?
 
hindsight2020 said:
best data point I've seen yet (it's amazing how much cameras there are in this world now, wild). Skid is obvious, rudder surface deflection, no apparent (to me) presence of external lock, able to maintain wings level at high enough speed. I'm assuming cables control the 310 rudder? Some redditors suggest cables jumping the pulley, or things backing out jamming the thing? It's clear to me that a locked center rudder in the 310 with engines operating would be perfectly landable. This is not that, appears a jammed while deflected control situation.
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I've not been able to clearly view a video frame that reveals the amount of rudder deflection during flight compared to photos or maintenance manual illustrations that depict a fully hard over to the stops position. In other words, how bad was it?

My thinking is that a normal takeoff and turn to a heading wouldn't require significant rudder control input by the pilot, but the amount of deflection I can see in the videos appears to be in excess of that. The pilot was able to effect level flight at times during the emergency, and I think that speaks well of his aerobatic experience and ability to find certain control and throttle combinations. He fought valiently, and it's a shame he couldn't overcome the situation.

Combined with the pilot's apparent inability to raise the gear, does that indicate a mechanical failure which locked the rudder in deflection and also prohibited gear retraction? I'm not aware of a condition that would cause that, but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the gear and rudder mechanical interactions on twin Cessna aircraft either. Unfortunately, the post crash fire likely destroyed any pertinent evidence.
 
3393RP said:
Combined with the pilot's apparent inability to raise the gear, does that indicate a mechanical failure which locked the rudder in deflection and also prohibited gear retraction? I'm not aware of a condition that would cause that, but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the gear and rudder mechanical interactions on twin Cessna aircraft either. Unfortunately, the post crash fire likely destroyed any pertinent evidence.
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I believe I have seen videos with gear both up and down at various points, and have also read that those talking with him reported he had cycled his gear several times as part of the troubleshooting process.
 
Track shows him holding runway heading on takeoff until the far end. Then he begins a series of tight left hand circles. That suggests the jammed rudder happened after he became airborne. Otherwise it would have yawed him off the runway when he rotated.

bob track.PNG
 
schmookeeg said:
Yeah I know we have the benefit of hindsight and the ultimate outcome, but if i had enough control to move the plane towards water, it's probably the last thing I'd consider.
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Sully would disagree.

In this case it looks like he had a hard time gaining any altitude and really had little control in turns. Add to that a rather small airfield to try to land on and, well, the ocean looks like a good option if he/they could get it there.
 
After reading it all, this pilot team simply didn't have any options with the control/power that they were given after rotation. The fact they stayed with it for so long deserves our respect and a reminder to fly the airplane all the way to the final stop. So discussions of water, runways, alternatives . .are simply out of bounds here. Never an option from the moment the left turns started and the rate of climb disappeared.
 
It seems likely that somehow, something jammed the rudder hard over. I don't know the 310 well enough to know what could cause a locked hard over, but it would seem unusual.

One theory that crossed my mind, what if it wasn't jammed but simply reversed, coming out of recent MX and all. On takeoff, might not have needed enough rudder to notice it, but once airborne the harder you pushed right the more left it would go. Now Monday morning quarterbacking would say surely an experienced pilot would have thought of that, but in the helmet fire of the situation would you really? If you are pushing right with all your might and the aircraft is going left, it would take deliberate thought and action to force yourself to release the right rudder out of fear of losing what little control you feel you have.

Just throwing out an alternative theory, because the rudder locking hard over left in a cable and pulley airplane seems unusual.

Before I hit post, another idea hit me. How are the nose wheel steering and rudder linked in a 310? I'd assume something mechanical. What it something broke or jammed at gear retraction, causing the rudder to lock hard over?
 
Piperonca said:
How many pilots look back at the rudder during the "Controls Free and Clear" check?
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WHen I was training (need to get that started back up) I was very deliberate in my control checks. Each control surface had eyes on it to see correct movement
 
Piperonca said:
How many pilots look back at the rudder during the "Controls Free and Clear" check?
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I sometimes try to spot the shadow, but generally I accept "pedals free and clear" as good enough. With a taildragger, any control discontinuity would manifest itself as an inability to turn during ground ops. Obviously with a nose wheel aircraft it is a different story.
 
Even if you can't see the rudder, or you can't move it because it's rigidly tied to the nose wheel, you should be able to tell it's rigged right as soon as you start the take off roll.
 
I spent some time looking at wreckage photos, trying to see if the tail surfaces were intact. There is very little recognizable as an airplane.

Here's a pic of Bob Stark in better days, probably 2004 when he was US National Champion in the Advanced category. Kirby Chambliss won Unlimited that year.

Bob Stark.PNG
 
Hengelo said:
Ed,
I’d offer an amendment; gust locks *that allow you taxi and takeoff while in place” are stupid.

Designing a gust lock that makes it impossible to start the aircraft while in place avoids all the “was it on the checklist” or “did they use the checklist” debate.
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Like the Cessna singles that the control lock covers the mag/start switch.
 
Spoke to a friend who was on the ground and talking to him on the radio. It was not a gust lock. Big mystery why the rudder jammed. Will have to wait on NTSB.

His account of the radio calls was harrowing as hell.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Spoke to a friend who was on the ground and talking to him on the radio. It was not a gust lock. Big mystery why the rudder jammed. Will have to wait on NTSB.

His account of the radio calls was harrowing as hell.
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Glad we are past all the rudder gust lock hypothesis.
 
Over on FB, somebody talked about one time seeing a bent trim tab push rod on a 414. Maybe NTSB can find the one for the 310.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I'm good with the Cessna pin through the yoke shaft too. Pretty sure you could yank that sucker out in flight if you forgot.
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Nope... A plane I flew during training later had a pilot try that. Luckily he managed to recognize how f***ed he was quickly enough to pull power and lawn dart into the runway from a low enough altitude that everyone walked away.
 
just a thought, was it a rudder issue? from the track, once the problem started in the initial left turn the airplane never seem to go straight. it appeared to alwas be in a left turn. if there was just a rudder problem, it would seem probable that an experienced aerobatic pilot, with both engines running could get it to go in a somewhat straight line with some combination of differential thrust, and aileron input. I think there was more than one problem going on here, possibly a problem with ailerons and rudder. but that is just me spitballing after the fact. he did a great job fighting it until the end. RIP all aboard.
 
unsafervguy said:
just a thought, was it a rudder issue? from the track, once the problem started in the initial left turn the airplane never seem to go straight. it appeared to alwas be in a left turn. if there was just a rudder problem, it would seem probable that an experienced aerobatic pilot, with both engines running could get it to go in a somewhat straight line with some combination of differential thrust, and aileron input. I think there was more than one problem going on here, possibly a problem with ailerons and rudder. but that is just me spitballing after the fact. he did a great job fighting it until the end. RIP all aboard.
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It would be unlikely to have just one thing go wrong. Trouble comes in bunches.
 
unsafervguy said:
just a thought, was it a rudder issue? from the track, once the problem started in the initial left turn the airplane never seem to go straight. it appeared to alwas be in a left turn. if there was just a rudder problem, it would seem probable that an experienced aerobatic pilot, with both engines running could get it to go in a somewhat straight line with some combination of differential thrust, and aileron input. I think there was more than one problem going on here, possibly a problem with ailerons and rudder. but that is just me spitballing after the fact. he did a great job fighting it until the end. RIP all aboard.
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Rudder was jammed full left. That was the issue. No doubt. I spoke personally to a highly credible witness.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Rudder was jammed full left. That was the issue. No doubt. I spoke personally to a highly credible witness.
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Can a hard left rudder trim Allow pilot to center rudder with rudder pedals in C310?
Other word use full left rudder trim then center rudder with using only pedals like a runaway trim?
 
Prelim is out: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/199995/pdf
Of note:

The accident flight was the first flight after the airplane’s annual inspection had been completed

The airplane’s rudder was found near the initial impact point and exhibited impact and thermal damage. The rudder trim tab remained attached to the rudder and displayed minor impact damage. Flight control cable continuity for the right rudder was confirmed and was continuous from the rudder pedal attach point to the rudder bellcrank attach bracket; however, the rudder bellcrank attach bracket had separated from the rest of the bellcrank. There were no visible signs of fretting between the rudder cable attach bracket and the rudder bellcrank. The left rudder cable was fractured near the rudder pedal attach point and at the rudder bellcrank. The separated cable ends exhibited a splayed, broomstrawed appearance, consistent with tension overload separation. Both cables were attached to their correct installation locations. The rudder trim actuator remained attached to the vertical stabilizer, and the rudder trim chain remained attached to the actuator’s sprocket. The rudder trim rod end extension was measured to be 1.5”, which corresponded to 21° trim tab trailing edge right (left rudder). Both rudder trim cables were fractured in the cockpit consistent with tension overload.
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Attachments

AV8R_87 said:
Prelim is out: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/199995/pdf
Of note:

The accident flight was the first flight after the airplane’s annual inspection had been completed

The airplane’s rudder was found near the initial impact point and exhibited impact and thermal damage. The rudder trim tab remained attached to the rudder and displayed minor impact damage. Flight control cable continuity for the right rudder was confirmed and was continuous from the rudder pedal attach point to the rudder bellcrank attach bracket; however, the rudder bellcrank attach bracket had separated from the rest of the bellcrank. There were no visible signs of fretting between the rudder cable attach bracket and the rudder bellcrank. The left rudder cable was fractured near the rudder pedal attach point and at the rudder bellcrank. The separated cable ends exhibited a splayed, broomstrawed appearance, consistent with tension overload separation. Both cables were attached to their correct installation locations. The rudder trim actuator remained attached to the vertical stabilizer, and the rudder trim chain remained attached to the actuator’s sprocket. The rudder trim rod end extension was measured to be 1.5”, which corresponded to 21° trim tab trailing edge right (left rudder). Both rudder trim cables were fractured in the cockpit consistent with tension overload.
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Well that paints a scary picture. :o
 
First flight After annual? Don't think I ever took passengers up first flight after annual or major work. That just sounds dumb to me what that pilot did.
 
Hengelo said:
So, rudder not connected to pedals?
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Would that result in a hard-over rudder? You (I) wouldn't think so, but I've never looked inside a 310.

Switching possibilities, is it possible to reverse the rudder trim on a 310, such that the more "right" trim they applied, the more left trim they actually got? I'm sure rudder trim on a 310 is very powerful to handle engine out scenarios.
 
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Might work until you push it hard one way, then get stuck.

Question for 310 owners/maintainers: what kind of work would be done in that area during an annual?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Fair point. But I wonder how much of that risk is imagined vs genuine. There are a lot of old wives tales out there.
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As a mechanic I have had the privilege of repairing wind-damaged control surfaces and systems. It's a real risk. The control column gust locks might limit the control surface movement, but the cables and pulleys are still taking loads and moving slightly, and suffer wear. I remember replacing the cables in a 30?-year-old Cessna 180 floatplane with only 1100 hours total time on it. Parked in an open-sided hangar using just the control column lock. The cables were all worn where they passed over pulleys and fairleads. All the hinges were worn. The wind did that.

I have seen smashed control surface travel stops. Seen bent aileron pushrods due to the sudden stop of a mass-balanced aileron against the bellcrank stop. Seen damaged flaps in an older Maule; spring-loaded-return flaps are famous for that.
 
Dan Thomas said:
As a mechanic I have had the privilege of repairing wind-damaged control surfaces and systems. It's a real risk. The control column gust locks might limit the control surface movement, but the cables and pulleys are still taking loads and moving slightly, and suffer wear. I remember replacing the cables in a 30?-year-old Cessna 180 floatplane with only 1100 hours total time on it. Parked in an open-sided hangar using just the control column lock. The cables were all worn where they passed over pulleys and fairleads. All the hinges were worn. The wind did that.

I have seen smashed control surface travel stops. Seen bent aileron pushrods due to the sudden stop of a mass-balanced aileron against the bellcrank stop. Seen damaged flaps in an older Maule; spring-loaded-return flaps are famous for that.
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so how to make sure u r safe?
 
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