Cessna 310 Down in Boca Raton

RIP, Possible rudder problem, online track shows several 360s before the crash.
 
Buddy of mine was about 100 yards away when it crashed.
 
There's video on X.com. Left engine appears out. One commenter said he heard comms. He speculated rudder gust lock not removed.
Link: Video on X
 
Den60 said:
I'm wondering if it is right engine failure leaving the pilot only able to turn to the left. Never flew a twin, but always heard you don't turn into a shut down engine.
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No. You maintain a minimum airspeed so you can keep control with one out. If you don't do that, you basically spin in, not turn into a spirograph. :)

This poor dude had a hard fight til the end. Good on him. I hope when I go out, I take a prius down with me too. :/
 
There should be atc audio I would guess he was in circles for a while
 
There was video from several angles on the morning TV shows today. He was yawing very hard left. Like full rudder deflection.
 
Fearless Tower said:
???

Gust locks are not stupid. Failing to do a flight control check before takeoff is stupid.

If park my Beech 18 outside, for example, and the wind shifts to coming from behind, stuff will break without a gust lock.
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This is good to know. I have always been in the "Gust locks are stupid" camp. The whole idea of making that mistake terrifies me to the point that I wonder why people use them.
I probably make 50 mistakes a day. I couldn't imagine why one would create a situation where this could be one of them. That said, most of us fly little span cans with the control lock on the yoke right in front of our face.

Thanks for the info.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This is good to know. I have always been in the "Gust locks are stupid" camp. The whole idea of making that mistake terrifies me to the point that I wonder why people use them.
I probably make 50 mistakes a day. I couldn't imagine why one would create a situation where this could be one of them. That said, most of us fly little span cans with the control lock on the yoke right in front of our face.

Thanks for the info.
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I would suggest that “flight controls free” or something similar on the checklist should easily resolve the terror.
 
Wouldn’t you fell a rudder gust lock on takeoff roll? Taxi? Do 310’s even have them?
 
bonefishpete said:
Wouldn’t you fell a gust lock on takeoff roll? Taxi? Do 310’s even have them?
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Only if you do a control check prior to liftoff. There have been a few DC-3's take off with gust locks installed.
 
Gust locks may not be stupid, but I certainly am at times. I don't use them due to the risk/reward equation being poor.

But I don't own a plane whose tail will self-destruct if parked outside either, so that helps too.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Dale Snodgrass probably had that on his checklist.
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He probably did, in which case he didn’t use the checklist properly.

But also note that my comment was directed at 6PC, who won’t make it through training at his next job if he doesn’t use a checklist properly.
 
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Can't find anything on live ATC. One would think there would be a lot of conversation.
 
Date & Time: Dec 5, 1978 at 0500 LT
Type of aircraft: Douglas C-53 Skytrooper (DC-3)
Operator: Caribe Air
Registration: N25656
Flight Phase: Takeoff (climb)
Flight Type: Private
Survivors: No
Site: Airport (less than 10 km from airport)
MSN: 4845
YOM: 1941
Location: Sebring Florida
Country: United States of America
Region: North America
Crew on board: 1
Crew fatalities:
Pax on board: 2
Pax fatalities:
Other fatalities:
Total fatalities: 3
Captain / Total flying hours: 280
Circumstances: After a night takeoff from Sebring Airfield, the airplane encountered difficulties to gain sufficient height. It struck ground obstacles and crashed in flames. The aircraft was destroyed and all three occupants were killed.
Probable cause: Uncontrolled collision with ground during initial climb due to inadequate preflight preparation. The following contributing factors were reported:
- Gust locks engaged,
- The pilot attempted operation beyond experience/ability level,
- Aircraft improperly loaded,
- Pilot sel certificated,
- Elevator gust lock found in early part of crash path before break up.
Final Report:
 
Mikey52 said:
Date & Time: Dec 5, 1978 at 0500 LT
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You can find control lock crashes more than 4 decades before that one…
30 October 1935Prototype Boeing Model 299, NX13372, 'X13372', c/n 1963, the future B-17, crashes on take-off from Wright Field, Ohio, due to locked control surfaces, killing early military aviator and test pilot Maj. Ployer Peter Hill. Other engineers taken to hospital with injuries. Boeing test pilot and observer Les Tower died later. Ogden Air Depot, Utah, renamed Hill Field, (later Hill Air Force Base), on 1 December 1939. As the prototype was owned by Boeing, it had no USAAC serial.
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Some people cite the inadvertent take-off configuration which caused this accident (forgetting to unlock the control surfaces before takeoff) as the origin of today’s ubiquitous aviation “checklist”.
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I’ve been following this one. I don’t think it’s a gust lock issue. In a twin if you had a yaw issue you could you asymmetric thrust.

I suspect it was a left engine failure that was either improperly secured and feathered, or the aircraft was wildly overweight…or both. It seems according to adsb they never made it over 400 feet and and likely eased up on rudder and counterbank in order to attempt to eek out some climb. They spent nearly 10 minutes making left circles in an attempt to gain altitude and return for landing, mostly at about 100-200 feet.
 
Den60 said:
I'm wondering if it is right engine failure leaving the pilot only able to turn to the left. Never flew a twin, but always heard you don't turn into a shut down engine.
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Why not? As long as you’re above VMC, it doesn’t make a difference.
 
schmookeeg said:
Gust locks may not be stupid, but I certainly am at times. I don't use them due to the risk/reward equation being poor.
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That's my basic point. Deliberately creating a condition that will be 100% fatal if not corrected does not strike me as prudent risk management.

Yabbut preflight inspections and checklists, right? And yet every year someone manages to kill themself this way. Those pilots were careless, right? IMO if Dale Snodgrass can do it, so can I.

schmookeeg said:
But I don't own a plane whose tail will self-destruct if parked outside either.
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Fair point. But I wonder how much of that risk is imagined vs genuine. There are a lot of old wives tales out there.

The worst one I remember was a twin out West a few years ago. Had homemade plywood gust locks on the control surfaces. Pulled it OUT OF THE HANGAR, forgot to remove, and crashed into fuel tanks on takeoff.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Yabbut preflight inspections and checklists, right? And yet every year someone manages to kill themself this way. Those pilots were careless, right? IMO if Dale Snodgrass can do it, so can I.
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I think a better way to look at it is that if some ****ing incompetent pilot can go his whole career without crashing due to a control lock because he uses a checklist, so can I.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I think a better way to look at it is that if some ****ing incompetent pilot can go his whole career without crashing due to a control lock because he uses a checklist, so can I.
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I don't think the two perspectives are mutually exclusive.
 
bonefishpete said:
Wouldn’t you fell a rudder gust lock on takeoff roll? Taxi? Do 310’s even have them?
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Yes. The Boca Raton crash was not due to a gust lock.

Some have speculated a left engine failure combined with rudder gust lock, but the video of the aircraft on final has both engines spinning.

Everything somewhat reliable I've heard seems to indicate a full left rudder or other flight control problem causing the aircraft to go left. That is based on local word on the field (posted on Beechtalk) that says the pilot reported a stuck full left rudder not an engine failure. That is not indicative of a rudder gust lock.

Haven't seen any liveATC feed, but I'm sure Tower (and NTSB) knows what was said.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This is good to know. I have always been in the "Gust locks are stupid" camp. The whole idea of making that mistake terrifies me to the point that I wonder why people use them.
I probably make 50 mistakes a day. I couldn't imagine why one would create a situation where this could be one of them. That said, most of us fly little span cans with the control lock on the yoke right in front of our face.

Thanks for the info.
Click to expand...
When we look at accidents like Snodgrass, the Gulfstream GIV at Bedford and others, the terrifying mistake was failing to check that there was no gust lock in place.

Some airplanes need gust locks more than others. I can't imagine ever putting a rudder gust lock on a PA28 or 32 for example. But I would never leave a tailwheel airplane on a ramp for any length of time without one.

Some airplanes need elevator locks more than others.

But every piston airplane I've ever flown from a Cub to a DC-3 (other than a Cirrus) needed at least an aileron gust lock whether that was an internal lock, external or seat belt wrapped around the yoke.
 
Would the gust lock system they use lock them over in a hard over condition, not straight?
 
Brad Z said:
I’ve been following this one. I don’t think it’s a gust lock issue. In a twin if you had a yaw issue you could you asymmetric thrust.

I suspect it was a left engine failure that was either improperly secured and feathered, or the aircraft was wildly overweight…or both. It seems according to adsb they never made it over 400 feet and and likely eased up on rudder and counterbank in order to attempt to eek out some climb. They spent nearly 10 minutes making left circles in an attempt to gain altitude and return for landing, mostly at about 100-200 feet.
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Plausible...video showed gear down also. Good catch on the altitude.
 
Piperonca said:
Plausible...video showed gear down also. Good catch on the altitude.
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Had to be a control issue. Why do 360 turns with engine out? Straight and level to gain altitude. I’d have turned west and try to make the Everglades boundary to set it down or gain enough altitude to come back east. Boca is congested area all around.

First priority is living not trying to save the aircraft. If you live then buy another airplane. Dead game over man.
 
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