Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

[aterpster]

 

[roncachamp]

I never implied anything. I can't help that you have incorrect assumptions.

The implication is there even if you don't recognize it.

 

[N801BH]

Case in point..

Suppose this crew cancelled while on short final with the runway in sight....

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-3054-47fd-8760-844217d90242&pgno=5&pgsize=50

Tower closed at 9PM.... Brakes miswired, they slide off the runway, stuck in 3 feet of snow and the tail hanging over the runway, engine on fire. They blow the slides and 132 people are wondering all over the runway... Next flight in can hit the pax since center clears them in as the field is now Echo airspace and the accident plane cancelled.......

ALL commercial flights will NOT cancel......... till they are CLEAR of the runway.... For a good reason too..

 

[ahkahn]

Silly comments in this thread.

I know that when I was at the ATC symposium a couple of days ago the controllers stressed that if you can cancel with the field in sight, please cancel at that point. For example, in the Chicagoland area, if you're shooting an approach into KLOT (Lewis), you're shutting down all airspace into and out of Clow, Naper, Lewis, Joliet, and Morris... and vice-versa. That is a huge area.

If there is some jackalope coming in on an approach with 2000' ceilings and locking down all departures and arrivals for a healthy 15-20 minutes because "he may crash on short final", then that is one of the most unprofessional things I've ever heard. Fly like a professional would even though you're not.

You have no business being out there if you can't make it VFR once you break out.

 

[N801BH]

Silly comments in this thread.

I know that when I was at the ATC symposium a couple of days ago the controllers stressed that if you can cancel with the field in sight, please cancel at that point. For example, in the Chicagoland area, if you're shooting an approach into KLOT (Lewis), you're shutting down all airspace into and out of Clow, Naper, Lewis, Joliet, and Morris... and vice-versa. That is a huge area.

If there is some jackalope coming in on an approach with 2000' ceilings and locking down all departures and arrivals for a healthy 15-20 minutes because "he may crash on short final", then that is one of the most unprofessional things I've ever heard. Fly like a professional would even though you're not.

You have no business being out there if you can't make it VFR once you break out.

Yeah.. but..... Siht can hit the fan long after you break out....

 

[Velocity173]

Case in point..

Suppose this crew cancelled while on short final with the runway in sight....

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-3054-47fd-8760-844217d90242&pgno=5&pgsize=50

Tower closed at 9PM.... Brakes miswired, they slide off the runway, stuck in 3 feet of snow and the tail hanging over the runway, engine on fire. They blow the slides and 132 people are wondering all over the runway... Next flight in can hit the pax since center clears them in as the field is now Echo airspace and the accident plane cancelled.......

ALL commercial flights will NOT cancel......... till they are CLEAR of the runway.... For a good reason too..

I think that depends on their particular opspecs. I used to work DH-8s (Piedmont) into Hilton Head and they cancelled in the air all the time. I believe it had to be VMC with field in sight and a certain distance out but they cancelled in the air. Especially if "company traffic" was holding short for take off.

They had ground crew and dispatch there so if they were to have an accident, it would easily be reported to FSS.

 

[ahkahn]

Yeah.. but..... Siht can hit the fan long after you break out....

Yep, sure can. Doesn't mean you need to shut down all IFR traffic for an 40 mile radius of you just because something may happen.

That's what 121.5, flip to last frequency, and 911 is for.

Are you telling me that you are talking to ATC every time you land?

 

[JHW]

Silly comments in this thread.

I know that when I was at the ATC symposium a couple of days ago the controllers stressed that if you can cancel with the field in sight, please cancel at that point. For example, in the Chicagoland area, if you're shooting an approach into KLOT (Lewis), you're shutting down all airspace into and out of Clow, Naper, Lewis, Joliet, and Morris... and vice-versa. That is a huge area.

If there is some jackalope coming in on an approach with 2000' ceilings and locking down all departures and arrivals for a healthy 15-20 minutes because "he may crash on short final", then that is one of the most unprofessional things I've ever heard. Fly like a professional would even though you're not.

You have no business being out there if you can't make it VFR once you break out.

no disagreement there, BUT if I'm 2 hours south of you at our sleepy home of Lacon, I'll never cancel in the air at night. There isn't any other traffic to inconvenience, nor is there anyone likely to notice if we get hit by one of the dozens of kamikaze deer that occupy our runway. I'll make a phone call and cancel after engine shutdown in front of my hangar.

 

[N801BH]

Yep, sure can. Doesn't mean you need to shut down all IFR traffic for an 40 mile radius of you just because something may happen.

That's what 121.5, flip to last frequency, and 911 is for.

Are you telling me that you are talking to ATC every time you land?

Hmmm..

Once you break out and safely land and clear the runway is what.... 2 minutes max..

 

[kayoh190]

I think that depends on their particular opspecs. I used to work DH-8s (Piedmont) into Hilton Head and they cancelled in the air all the time.

Yep, we did that at my prior airline all the time. We needed to be within 10nm and have 2 way communication with someone on the ground, such as ops.

 

[roncachamp]

Yep, sure can. Doesn't mean you need to shut down all IFR traffic for an 40 mile radius of you just because something may happen.

It won't shut down all IFR traffic within a forty mile radius. It will shut down that IAP and all conflicting procedures and airways from the surface to the the missed approach holding altitude.

 

[ahkahn]

It won't shut down all IFR traffic within a forty mile radius. It will shut down that IAP and all conflicting procedures and airways from the surface to the the missed approach holding altitude.

It will shut down all approaches and departures into/out of conflicting airports. They cannot even allow transitioning traffic around them. It's not the same everywhere, but my point earlier is that you're shutting down several decent volume airports around here. If you're in a remote area, certainly a different situation.

And, it's not FAF inward, it's approach clearance inward. So, if I'm approaching and have been cleared for the approach, even if I'm not to the IAP yet, but have been cleared for the XXX approach, all other conflicting approaches for all other airports around have now been blocked out.

Some approaches can take upwards of 15 minutes from clearance to landing, especially if it's a Cessna 152 or 172 shooting the approach.

 

[ARFlyer]

Silly comments in this thread.

I know that when I was at the ATC symposium a couple of days ago the controllers stressed that if you can cancel with the field in sight, please cancel at that point. For example, in the Chicagoland area, if you're shooting an approach into KLOT (Lewis), you're shutting down all airspace into and out of Clow, Naper, Lewis, Joliet, and Morris... and vice-versa. That is a huge area.

If there is some jackalope coming in on an approach with 2000' ceilings and locking down all departures and arrivals for a healthy 15-20 minutes because "he may crash on short final", then that is one of the most unprofessional things I've ever heard. Fly like a professional would even though you're not.

You have no business being out there if you can't make it VFR once you break out.

Down here if I have to shoot the approach then it's basically impossible to cancel, especially late at night. It's a miracle if I can communicate at below 2000'. Late night this sector is like a ghost town. If I'm shooting an approach into a surface area I might cancel on short final depending on the conditions. This thread was suppose to help answer the question why they can't wait the 15 minutes to let me call.

 

[kayoh190]

This thread was suppose to help answer the question why they can't wait the 15 minutes to let me call.

This is PoA - you didn't expect this to stay on topic, did you? Especially once the trolls started popping in!

 

[ahkahn]

Down here if I have to shoot the approach then it's basically impossible to cancel, especially late at night. It's a miracle if I can communicate at below 2000'. Late night this sector is like a ghost town. If I'm shooting an approach into a surface area I might cancel on short final depending on the conditions. This thread was suppose to help answer the question why they can't wait the 15 minutes to let me call.

No issues out of me if it's a ghost town... I might even do the same... but my point was to be mindful that you're shutting down airspace by not cancelling. If you need to (low ceilings, dangerous area, etc) that is a different story, but if you're keeping the IFR active "just because", that's being a jackalope.

Visual Aid:

 

[N801BH]

No issues out of me if it's a ghost town... I might even do the same... but my point was to be mindful that you're shutting down airspace by not cancelling. If you need to (low ceilings, dangerous area, etc) that is a different story, but if you're keeping the IFR active "just because", that's being a jackalope.

Visual Aid:

Unless you live in Chicago... There they just bulldoze airports in the middle of the night......

 

[ahkahn]

Unless you live in Chicago... There they just bulldoze airports in the middle of the night......

Yep... the mayor was a jackalope also!

 

[N801BH]

Yep... the mayor was a jackalope also!

And....

Jackalopes originated in Wyoming......

We feed anyone named Daly to the bears....

Poor bears...

 

[jesse]

I don't know about the landing light in the Cherokee you were flying, but I know that mine (LED, no less) don't shine enough light far enough ahead to avoid trees even at stall speed. So yes, I would consider it seriously crazy to attempt that final approach in my plane. YMMV.

Now maybe you did something else like chop 'n' drop from over the trees that under the circumstances (strong headwind?) was safe. And I've never been to Gaston's personally. But having seen videos of that final approach between the trees, it's something I would attempt in daylight only. And I'm happy to submit my skills to the analysis of a CFI - I do so a good deal more often than every two years, whenever possible, thank you very much.

I was present and watched him land. There was enough remaining light to be able to see the runway itself, the valley, and the tree lines.

If it had been a pitch black night there's no way in hell you'd be able to do it in any sane manner with nothing but your eyes and a landing light that accomplishes nothing. You'd need to build yourself an approach and be damn good with a pair of night vision googles.

 

[roncachamp]

It will shut down all approaches and departures into/out of conflicting airports. They cannot even allow transitioning traffic around them.

You're just rephrasing what I wrote.

And, it's not FAF inward, it's approach clearance inward. So, if I'm approaching and have been cleared for the approach, even if I'm not to the IAP yet, but have been cleared for the XXX approach, all other conflicting approaches for all other airports around have now been blocked out.

Some approaches can take upwards of 15 minutes from clearance to landing, especially if it's a Cessna 152 or 172 shooting the approach.

It's from the point procedural separation must be used instead of radar separation. That can be well after approach clearance is issued.

 

[Marauder]

On a nearby tower? An RCO on the field is shown.

Is there someone or a website to ask for service on these RCOs? I have one at my home field but the quality is really poor. If you see some knucklehead going around in a circle at my airport, he or she is trying to find that RCO sweet spot.

Fortunately, we have a direct landline to Philly approach and can dial in.

 

[Approach_controller]

It won't shut down all IFR traffic within a forty mile radius. It will shut down that IAP and all conflicting procedures and airways from the surface to the the missed approach holding altitude.

True, but I work an uncontrolled airport 1.5 miles away from the final to my busiest class D airport and directly in the path of the main international's prop heading depending on configuration.

Waiting until you got your Coke out of the vending machine at the FBO to call Lock Mart on a clear and a million day really hurts our operation. If you feel you need it, wait.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

You know what? Sorry, but you can be bugged.



Sometimes that is what needs to happen. If the weather is not VFR, they will have to cancel when they are on the ground. Whether that is a call to the FSS via land line or some sort of remote communications with center depends on the airport. Some places there is no option other than a phone call. In this day and age where everyone has a cell phone, it shouldn't take too long after shut down to get that done, but to advocate calling via cell phone before shutdown is just not a good practice. Calling via radio is another issue, but that is the pilot's prerogative just when that call is made.



Depends on the situation



I don't disagree with that, workload permitting.



Assumes facts not in evidence, Counselor.



We all fly in the same system and we all have just as much right to do so as the next person.

I don't know you personally, and written communications can't convey attitude very accurately. So forgive me for saying this if it really doesn't apply. But you come across like you have an "I am a professional pilot and you bug smashers are taking up my valuable time, so get out of my way" attitude.

I liked the step by step plays. I'm not as forum knowlegable as you. I don't know how to do that.
You've got some good points. I am not a professional pilot. I do however take the IFR portion of flying seriously. I view VFR for play and IFR for work. When the weather is IFR people need to be serious and need to get things done, making the system safe. I can't think of any airports where someone can't safely cancel IFR within 30 seconds of exiting the runway. Phones do work with the engine running and phone numbers and frequencies are VERY easy to find via foreflight, garmin pilot etc. Dialing up when stopped after your post landing checklist and before you taxi in is in no way unsafe and its so easy, its just rude not to cancel ASAP. We all have a right to the road too but when someone stops in the middle of an off ramp, it isn't appreciated.

 

[denverpilot]

I've noticed starting a few months ago that Memphis Center starts looking for us way before we're on the ground. No less then four times have I been called up by an airliner asking for us. 3/4 times I'm still rolling out on the runway. Is center trying to be helpful or are they really that worried about us?



I'll call FSS and I'll be told that we were overdue and should have air canceled. Also half the time Memphis has already called our OPS and my phone is blowing up with texts.

Here's a theory for you...

You know the phrase "children of the magenta line" already...

Try... "children of the secondary RADAR tag."

If they're calling before you're on the ground, they're not doing the time/speed/distance numbers in their heads. That or they've automated the system to notify LockMart to start looking from last time of known location instead of "ETA plus 10".

Either way, I'm pretty damn sure a computer is involved somewhere and screwing up what should be a simple mental calculation in a non-RADAR environment.

You honestly should call up the Center and ask to talk to a Supervisor and explain the problem and see if there's a reason so at least they know they have a pattern started that's not right.

 

[roncachamp]

True, but I work an uncontrolled airport 1.5 miles away from the final to my busiest class D airport and directly in the path of the main international's prop heading depending on configuration.

Waiting until you got your Coke out of the vending machine at the FBO to call Lock Mart on a clear and a million day really hurts our operation. If you feel you need it, wait.

That needs to be rephrased.

 

[azure]

I was present and watched him land. There was enough remaining light to be able to see the runway itself, the valley, and the tree lines.

If it had been a pitch black night there's no way in hell you'd be able to do it in any sane manner with nothing but your eyes and a landing light that accomplishes nothing. You'd need to build yourself an approach and be damn good with a pair of night vision googles.

Of course it would be insane - that's why getting down on people for not having the skills he claimed to have is so uncalled-for.

But even worse that it was just empty bragging after all. I had a feeling it was so, but I usually take people at their word absent evidence to the contrary. Will have to file this one as an "EdFred fish story"...

 

[EdFred]

I think Jesse is recalling Tony coming in the next night which was quite a bit earlier than when I arrived.

Of course, Pete and Kent arrived at 6Y9 when it was even later.
Found the thread it was in.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14521


And a quote from Jesse:

All we could see was a landing light. Tristan and I both thought it was a high wing Cessna until you passed us. I could barely make out N2212R. Then it all made sense.

 

[Ghery]

Cancelling in the air causes a problem if the weather isn't legal VFR when you break out. I am not sure but I seem to recall enforcement action being taken against pilots who cancel IFR to help out the following traffic and the weather was documented to be below VFR minimums. As another poster on this board would say, Caveat Aviator.

Don't let ANYONE pressure you into doing something that you are not comfortable with. Even if that means cancelling on the ground. For the controllers and the flights behind you, well, that is just part of flying IFR into uncontrolled fields.

All too true. You are PIC, you know your limitations and you are flying in that weather. You know whether or not you can cancel in the air.

I don't know you personally, and written communications can't convey attitude very accurately. So forgive me for saying this if it really doesn't apply. But you come across like you have an "I am a professional pilot and you bug smashers are taking up my valuable time, so get out of my way" attitude.

Says an ATP who flies for the airline I ride the most. Oh, and Greg, this bugsmasher pilot got the same impression.

 

[Palmpilot]

Fortunately, not all professional pilots develop a holier-than-thou attitude. Most of the ones I encounter online seem to avoid that kind of thinking.

 

[Kritchlow]

Since I will respectfully agree to disagree with canceling in the air, I have a somewhat off topic but related question that perhaps the controllers here can shed some light upon..

I used to fly with a guy that likes to cancel on final. He is a retired Atlanta Center air traffic controller. When told "squawk 1200", he always responded "no, we'll stay on our code". He once explained why, but I can't remember. It was more than just identification of a target, as 1200 would do that, and non radar environment it wouldn't matter anyway.

Thoughts?

 

[Palmpilot]

Since I will respectfully agree to disagree with canceling in the air, I have a somewhat off topic but related question that perhaps the controllers here can shed some light upon..

I used to fly with a guy that likes to cancel on final. He is a retired Atlanta Center air traffic controller. When told "squawk 1200", he always responded "no, we'll stay on our code". He once explained why, but I can't remember. It was more than just identification of a target, as 1200 would do that, and non radar environment it wouldn't matter anyway.

Thoughts?

I'm not a controller, but it sounds to me like a violation of 91.123(b).

 

[Kritchlow]

I'm not a controller, but it sounds to me like a violation of 91.123(b).

Yeah, it's not really a clearance per se, it just somehow doesn't relieve controller of certain responsibilities.

 

[Kritchlow]

I should add-- The controllers never had an issue with is. Their response haas always been "roger, frequency changed approved".

 

[Velocity173]

Since I will respectfully agree to disagree with canceling in the air, I have a somewhat off topic but related question that perhaps the controllers here can shed some light upon..

I used to fly with a guy that likes to cancel on final. He is a retired Atlanta Center air traffic controller. When told "squawk 1200", he always responded "no, we'll stay on our code". He once explained why, but I can't remember. It was more than just identification of a target, as 1200 would do that, and non radar environment it wouldn't matter anyway.

Thoughts?

He might have been doing it to allow MSAW alerts but that's silly. Once you're terminated by being switched to advisory, the controller is done with you. In order to issue an alert after that point they'd have to dial in CTAF and key it up. Probably wouldn't hear the controller anyway. Your friend might not want to do it because it's a distraction. There is a beacon / freq rule below 2,500 ft but that applies to single seat fighters. I'd hardly think it would be that much of a distraction for him to dial in 1200. If he can't, then he's probably outside his abilities in simply flying the aircraft.

Not only is he not complying with 91.123b but it's a requirement on the controllers part (7110.65) to tell him to squawk VFR once he cancels. That is if he doesn't request FF.

 

[Palmpilot]

Yeah, it's not really a clearance per se, it just somehow doesn't relieve controller of certain responsibilities.

91.123(b) refers to "instructions," so it's not limited to clearances. 91.123(a) is the one that mentions clearances specifically.

 

[Kritchlow]

He might have been doing it to allow MSAW alerts but that's silly. Once you're terminated by being switched to advisory, the controller is done with you. In order to issue an alert after that point they'd have to dial in CTAF and key it up. Probably wouldn't hear the controller anyway. Your friend might not want to do it because it's a distraction. There is a beacon / freq rule below 1,500 ft but that applies to single seat fighters. I'd hardly think it would be that much of a distraction for him to dial in 1200. If he can't, then he's probably outside his abilities in simply flying the aircraft.

Not only is he not complying with 91.123b but it's a requirement on the controllers part (7110.65) to tell him to squawk VFR once he cancels. That is if he doesn't request FF.

Well, he did have a full career at Atlanta Center, so I do think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

He is also a professional pilot, so I hardly think changing a squawk code while flying a two man jet is beyond his capabilities.

 

[bflynn]

No issues out of me if it's a ghost town... I might even do the same... but my point was to be mindful that you're shutting down airspace by not cancelling. If you need to (low ceilings, dangerous area, etc) that is a different story, but if you're keeping the IFR active "just because", that's being a jackalope.

Just because they can't talk to center at low altitude? I don't take from that they should cancel the clearance if they don't have a VMC out..

 

[Kritchlow]

91.123(b) refers to "instructions," so it's not limited to clearances. 91.123(a) is the one that mentions clearances specifically.

Not sure what to tell you... Never had an issue. He must have known this from his ATC days and been aware of the consequences.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, he did have a full career at Atlanta Center, so I do think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

He is also a professional pilot, so I hardly think changing a squawk code while flying a two man jet is beyond his capabilities.

Well I'm not doubting the guys experience, just wondering about his logic. Also, while he might be violating a rule, it's not like it's one that ATC cares about. They're not going to throw a fit if he keeps his code until landing.

I fly with an air ambulance code and ATC is required to tell me to squawk VFR when radar service is terminated but rarely do they tell me that. I keep my code and they drop my tag. It's not a big deal.

 

[Kritchlow]

Well I'm not doubting the guys experience, just wondering about his logic. Also, while he might be violating a rule, it's not like it's one that ATC cares about. They're not going to throw a fit if he keeps his code until landing.

I fly with an air ambulance code and ATC is required to tell me to squawk VFR when radar service is terminated but rarely do they tell me that. I keep my code and they drop my tag. It's not a big deal.

And I'm not doubting you or anyone here... I have no idea about why he does this, so I figured I would ask.
I have his number so perhaps I'll give him a call and report back. Maybe we can all learn something.