Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

narchee said:
I understand your point at lower ceilings but at 1100 OVC? Breaking out on a typical glide slope at 1100 ovc you have a lot of time to call to cancel before short final. In most cases It takes less than five seconds to flip back to the center or approach and tell them you're cancelling then come back to the local frequency. And if you have to go around, that is not a problem with ceilings at 1100. Just go around in the pattern.



Yes good suggestion.
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In order to cancel IFR you have to have the required cloud clearance to legally be VFR, just being below the cloud deck and visual with the runway is not sufficient. So breaking out at 1100 feet, you can't legally be VFR until you're either in Class G or 500 feet below the ceiling in Class E. By that time you're probably too busy landing to be switching freqs. There have been enforcement actions taken against pilots who were cancelling as soon as they broke out of the overcast because they wanted to be "nice guys" to traffic behind them.
 
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EdFred said:
Class G surface area.
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There are no Class G surface areas.

SURFACE AREA− The airspace contained by the lateral boundary of the Class B, C, D, or E airspace designated for an airport that begins at the surface and extends upward.
 
Witmo said:
In order to cancel IFR you have to have the required cloud clearance to legally be VFR, just being in VMC is not sufficient. So breaking out at 1100 feet, you can't legally be VFR until you're either in Class G or 500 feet below the ceiling in Class E. By that time you're probably too busy landing to be switching freqs. There have been enforcement actions taken against pilots who were cancelling as soon as they broke out of the overcast because they wanted to be "nice guys" to traffic behind them.
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You're not in VMC until you do have that required cloud clearance. VMC does not mean "clear of clouds".
 
roncachamp said:
You're not in VMC until you do have that required cloud clearance. VMC does not mean "clear of clouds".
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You're right. I edited my post to reflect a correction.
 
roncachamp said:
There are no Class G surface areas.

SURFACE AREA− The airspace contained by the lateral boundary of the Class B, C, D, or E airspace designated for an airport that begins at the surface and extends upward.
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Does class G go to the surface? Yes. Don't be so pedantic. On second thought I have a better solution.
 
EdFred said:
Does class G go to the surface? Yes. Don't be so pedantic. On second thought I have a better solution.
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A better solution would be for you to adjust your attitude but I doubt that you will.
 
roncachamp said:
By what definition?
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I *think* what you're driving at is that the 1000/3 definition is not FAA regulatory, but rather a weather service definition?
If so than that makes more sense, as the two couldn't live in harmony otherwise..
 
Witmo said:
In order to cancel IFR you have to have the required cloud clearance to legally be VFR, just being below the cloud deck and visual with the runway is not sufficient. So breaking out at 1100 feet, you can't legally be VFR until you're either in Class G or 500 feet below the ceiling in Class E. By that time you're probably too busy landing to be switching freqs. There have been enforcement actions taken against pilots who were cancelling as soon as they broke out of the overcast because they wanted to be "nice guys" to traffic behind them.
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Yes, agreed, I'm saying cancel when VMC. Maybe it is a big deal for some to switch back and cancel when 600 feet above the ground so I suppose I don't really understand. Toggle radio, click, speak up and cancel, toggle back. Done.
 
Kritchlow said:
I *think* what you're driving at is that the 1000/3 definition is not FAA regulatory, but rather a weather service definition?
If so than that makes more sense, as the two couldn't live in harmony otherwise..
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You wrote; "Cloud clearance and vis requirements in G are one thing, but by definition the field is IFR when below 1000 ceilings." The only applicable FAA "definition" I'm aware of is that found in FAR 91.155(c); "person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet." But that applies to controlled airspace, we're talking about Class G airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
You wrote; "Cloud clearance and vis requirements in G are one thing, but by definition the field is IFR when below 1000 ceilings." The only applicable FAA "definition" I'm aware of is that found in FAR 91.155(c); "person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet." But that applies to controlled airspace, we're talking about Class G airspace.
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That's sort of my point.. It is published that LIFR, IFR, MVFR, and VFR all have a generic ceiling and vis requirement. That said, even though it is published, it may not be an FAR. That criteria may be used by weather service, and the FAA may disregard it all together. That's what I wasn't exactly sure about.
 
Witmo said:
In order to cancel IFR you have to have the required cloud clearance to legally be VFR, just being below the cloud deck and visual with the runway is not sufficient. So breaking out at 1100 feet, you can't legally be VFR until you're either in Class G or 500 feet below the ceiling in Class E. By that time you're probably too busy landing to be switching freqs. There have been enforcement actions taken against pilots who were cancelling as soon as they broke out of the overcast because they wanted to be "nice guys" to traffic behind them.
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Not saying there have not been enforcement actions, but can anyone provide proof of such an action?
 
Topper said:
Not saying there have not been enforcement actions, but can anyone provide proof of such an action?
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Enforcement actions are subject to privacy laws. The one I read discussed had to have been appealed to the NTSB so it was on the public record. As I recall, an FAA inspector observed the violation from the ground at the landing airfield. The pilot had his certificate suspended. Sorry but I can't remember the URL.
 
Witmo said:
Enforcement actions are subject to privacy laws. The one I read discussed had to have been appealed to the NTSB so it was on the public record. As I recall, an FAA inspector observed the violation from the ground at the landing airfield. The pilot had his certificate suspended. Sorry but I can't remember the URL.
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FOIA will disclose enforcement actions.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Class G is not controlled airspace. Read my post again.
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You quoted my even when breaking out at mins post. Where I fly mins are always outside controlled airspace. Read MY post again. :D ;)
 
Agreed. In my area, you probably won't be able to talk to center under 500' anyway, so that makes communicating when you're supposed to be aviating even more hazardous. Flip open the cell once you're clear of the runway and cancel.
 
EdFred said:
You quoted my even when breaking out at mins post. Where I fly mins are always outside controlled airspace. Read MY post again. :D ;)
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Heck... You could even cancel when IMC. No such thing as an IFR clearance in G.
 
Kritchlow said:
Heck... You could even cancel when IMC. No such thing as an IFR clearance in G.
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I imagine the majority of IFR operations in Class G airspace are done with an IFR clearance in hand. They would be the portions of the IFR flight conducted between the surface and the floor of Class E airspace at 700' AGL or 1200' AGL.
 
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roncachamp said:
I imagine the majority of IFR operations in Class G airspace are done with an IFR clearance in hand. They would be the portions of the IFR flight conducted between the surface and the floor of Class G airspace at 700' AGL or 1200' AGL.
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Isn't the floor of Class G usually 0 AGL?
 
roncachamp said:
I imagine the majority of IFR operations in Class G airspace are done with an IFR clearance in hand. They would be the portions of the IFR flight conducted between the surface and the floor of Class E airspace at 700' AGL or 1200' AGL.
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"Enter controlled airspace heading xxx".

No clearance until controlled airspace. They can't control anything in uncontrolled airspace... It's uncontrolled.
 
Kritchlow said:
"Enter controlled airspace heading xxx".

No clearance until controlled airspace. They can't control anything in uncontrolled airspace... It's uncontrolled.
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In theory, yes. But in the UP of Michigan I've been on IFR flight plans and still talking to ZMP while in the class G to 14,500. When I arrive or depart 6Y9 IFR I enter class G, and they've always kept me while entering it.

Also got it going into ISQ - there's a little section of G to 14500 to the south of it. ZMP vectored me right through it and did not cancel my clearance. So, what you think you know, you don't know.
 
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EdFred said:
In theory, yes. But in the UP of Michigan I've been on IFR flight plans and still talking to ZMP while in the class G to 14,500. When I arrive or depart 6Y9 IFR I enter class G, and they've always kept me while entering it.
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Ed, I'm curious. How do you pick up an IFR clearance departing 6Y9? Do you always depart VFR and pick up in the air? Call FSS? Or can you talk to ZMP on the ground?
 
azure said:
Ed, I'm curious. How do you pick up an IFR clearance departing 6Y9? Do you always depart VFR and pick up in the air? Call FSS? Or can you talk to ZMP on the ground?
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I called them on the pay phone (when it was still there) and got a clearance void that started at whatever time, and ended like 10-15 minutes later. That was a OVC005 day when I launched on that one.

I've also departed VFR and picked it up in the air.

I have never attempted to reach them on the ground via the airplane radio, I'm pretty sure that's not happening.
 
EdFred said:
In theory, yes. But in the UP of Michigan I've been on IFR flight plans and still talking to ZMP while in the class G to 14,500. When I arrive or depart 6Y9 IFR I enter class G, and they've always kept me while entering it.

Also got it going into ISQ - there's a little section of G to 14500 to the south of it. ZMP vectored me right through it and did not cancel my clearance. So, what you think you know, you don't know.
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I'm wondering if it was just "advisories" while in the G??
It seems hard to give a clearance, as they could clear you right into another airplane flying in the clouds while not on an IFR flight plan..

Hopefully one of the ATC guys here will weigh in..
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm wondering if it was just "advisories" while in the G??
It seems hard to give a clearance, as they could clear you right into another airplane flying in the clouds while not on an IFR flight plan..

Hopefully one of the ATC guys here will weigh in..
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There's RADAR coverage. No clue why that G still remains.
 
EdFred said:
There's RADAR coverage. No clue why that G still remains.
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The problem is that the traffic could be legally IFR in the clag, and they might not be able to tell it from a VFR. As we all know, they have no legal responsibility to separate IFR from VFR. So it sounds like effectively, it's just advisories as Kritchlow said.
 
azure said:
The problem is that the traffic could be legally IFR in the clag, and they might not be able to tell it from a VFR. As we all know, they have no legal responsibility to separate IFR from VFR. So it sounds like effectively, it's just advisories as Kritchlow said.
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Transponder code would tell them VFR vs IFR
 
Just curious... What code does one squak when flying IFR without a clearance ?
 
Kritchlow said:
"Enter controlled airspace heading xxx".

No clearance until controlled airspace. They can't control anything in uncontrolled airspace... It's uncontrolled.
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"Enter controlled airspace heading xxx" is part of your clearance. Clearly, you had it prior to entering controlled airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
"Enter controlled airspace heading xxx" is part of your clearance. Clearly, you had it prior to entering controlled airspace.
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No... Your clearance begins when entering controlled airspace. You can do as you please until that point as long as you enter in that heading.
 
Kritchlow said:
No... Your clearance begins when entering controlled airspace. You can do as you please until that point as long as you enter in that heading.
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But you did receive a clearance before entering controlled airspace. Once you receive it, you have it.
 
roncachamp said:
There's no provision for that.
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I'm sure there must be an answer, possibly just an informal rule of thumb... People must put in some sort of code.
Although, are transponders even required in G ?
 
roncachamp said:
But you did receive a clearance before entering controlled airspace. Once you receive it, you have it.
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Sure, you have a clearance, but it's not in effect until entering controlled airspace. Similar to a release time.
 
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