Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

PPC1052 said:
What if it's an approach for training?
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If it's training, then by definition you have a CFII with you. And that CFII can double as the safety pilot. IFR gets cancelled, and you've cleared up the airspace.
 
azure said:
It all depends. At night, coming in to MPV I'm still flying the approach even if it's CAVU, unless there's a bright full moon. There is a low ridge just to the south of the approach end of 35, completely unlit and invisible in the dark. 1.2 nm from RW35 I know I can safely descend, but not before.
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You do realize I'm the guy that landed at Gaston's when it was pitch black. ;)
 
EdFred said:
If it's training, then by definition you have a CFII with you. And that CFII can double as the safety pilot. IFR gets cancelled, and you've cleared up the airspace.
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But the whole point is to fly the approach. What's the point of canceling? I still need the space to practice flying the approach. I guess your point is to fly it anyway, and just let my CFII tell me to turn only if I need to avoid traffic.
 
PPC1052 said:
But the whole point is to fly the approach. What's the point of canceling? I still need the space to practice flying the approach. I guess your point is to fly it anyway, and just let my CFII tell me to turn only if I need to avoid traffic.
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Separation issues.

There's an approach into my airport where it's 18+ miles from the (an) IAF to the FAF, and then another 12+ from the FAF to the runway. If I cancel once out of IMC, ATC can clear the guy behind me in. You can still follow the needles, but the airspace is now freed up to be used by the next guy.
 
EdFred said:
Separation issues.

There's an approach into my airport where it's 18+ miles from the (an) IAF to the FAF, and then another 12+ from the FAF to the runway. If I cancel once out of IMC, ATC can clear the guy behind me in. You can still follow the needles, but the airspace is now freed up to be used by the next guy.
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Makes sense. I was really focused on my own limited experience with a pretty small approach-- just 6 nm from the FAF to the runway.
 
EdFred said:
Separation issues.

There's an approach into my airport where it's 18+ miles from the (an) IAF to the FAF, and then another 12+ from the FAF to the runway. If I cancel once out of IMC, ATC can clear the guy behind me in. You can still follow the needles, but the airspace is now freed up to be used by the next guy.
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I guess it depends on the situation. On an approach like that, if it was good day VFR under the ceiling, and there were good forced landing options along the approach course, I could see cancelling, especially if I knew there was someone waiting to begin the approach. The ILS to Salinas (SNS) would be another example.
 
PPC1052 said:
I had a biz jet that was annoyed with me because we didn't cancel in the air. But it was marginal VFR (we had been in actual during part of the approach), it was a training flight, so I am trying to practice my approach, and he we were on the LOC 21, while he was waiting to depart 03. So, even if we had canceled, he couldn't have SAFELY taken off until we were out of his way anyway. Frankly, I am not sure I could have done much to speed his departure up. Still, I have a lot to learn about the practicalities beyond the requirements of PTS.
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FTFY. He could have legally taken off and might have even been instructed to do so now that the airspace was cleared. That wouldn't have changed the fact that you were still there and a factor to his flight.

It's an easy thing - you break out, you know it's clear all around, you can execute a VFR go around...then you can cancel. Until then you still need the system.

EdFred said:
You do realize I'm the guy that landed at Gaston's when it was pitch black. ;)
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I'm not sure that's something to be bragged about.
 
EdFred said:
You do realize I'm the guy that landed at Gaston's when it was pitch black. ;)
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So because you did something seriously crazy and lived to tell about it, other people should sacrifice safety for someone else's convenience? :dunno:
 
Palmpilot said:
However, for the purpose we're discussing, there's no particular need to open the VFR flight plan immediately after takeoff. One can simply wait until contact with an FSS becomes possible (and a time when IFR-related communications have calmed down).
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True -- IF they calm down. :hairraise:
 
EdFred said:
The people that don't cancel in the air when they can, are on par with the guy that leaves his plane in front of the only fuel pump, goes inside to, take a dump, check the weather, ask for a full briefing, and file a flight plan Oh yeah, and he locked his plane with the brakes set so you can't move it.
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Key words there.
 
kayoh190 said:
To me, it's about common courtesy. Yes, it's your airspace. But if you're comfortable with the airport environment, the weather, and have no regulatory restrictions, why not cancel and let the guy holding short go out?
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Again, key words.
 
azure said:
So because you did something seriously crazy and lived to tell about it, other people should sacrifice safety for someone else's convenience? :dunno:
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I'm an average pilot. If I can do it, anyone should be able to do it. I don,t ask anyone to do anything I'm not capable of. And it's not seriously crazy - and there was never a safety issue. There's these things called landing lights on the plane - although in the Cherokee it was singular. I'd do it again 1000 times over. Anyone who calls themselves a pilot should be able to do the same thing. If you can't, or feel uncomfortable, a self analysis - or outside analysis of your skills is in order.
 
EdFred said:
If you aren't comfortable with it, you need remedial training until you do become comfortable with it.
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It's so easy to spend other people's money!

Sometimes, when people aren't comfortable doing something, it's because it REALY IS less safe. I don't consider it my place to tell other pilots that they are being too conservative in their safety-related decisions. I'm not there in the cockpit with them, can't tell what conditions they're seeing, how long they've been airborne, what their fatigue level is, what their experience level is, whether they're flying single-pilot, or whether they have an autopilot that is capable of coupled approaches.
 
Palmpilot said:
It's so easy to spend other people's money!

Sometimes, when people aren't comfortable doing something, it's because it REALY IS less safe. I don't consider it my place to tell other pilots that they are being too conservative in their safety-related decisions. I'm not there in the cockpit with them, can't tell what conditions they're seeing, how long they've been airborne, what their fatigue level is, what their experience level is, whether they're flying single-pilot, or whether they have an autopilot that is capable of coupled approaches.
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I spend my own money before telling anyone else to spend theirs. And if they are being (way) too conservative for the average pilot, they probably shouldn't be flying in the system. It's not my fault people accept being sucky pilots.
 
EdFred said:
I spend my own money before telling anyone else to spend theirs. And if they are being (way) too conservative for the average pilot, they probably shouldn't be flying in the system.
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Do you think you're representative of the average pilot?
 
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Don't most accidents happen during takeoff or landing? It just seems prudent to be on a flight plan during that time. Again, YMMV.
 
Kritchlow said:
Don't most accidents happen during takeoff or landing? It just seems prudent to be on a flight plan during that time. Again, YMMV.
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You work for the press don't you?

This just in: Flight plans prevent accidents!

Thinking, it helps to do it before you post.
 
EdFred said:
You work for the press don't you?

This just in: Flight plans prevent accidents!

Thinking, it helps to do it before you post.
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Flight plans speed up search and rescue response.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, I'm firmly in the middle of the bell curve.
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Do you think the average pilot is qualified to judge the qualifications of other pilots, especially ones he has never flown with?
 
Palmpilot said:
Flight plans speed up search and rescue response.
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That I will agree with. But the guy behind you will see the flaming ball of mediocrity and plumes of suckage, and can call it in. Which is probably quicker than the 30 minute wait and see time.
 
Palmpilot said:
Do you think the average pilot is qualified to judge the qualifications of other pilots, especially ones he has never flown with?
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I believe they are qualified to judge what an average pilot should be capable of, and anyone that isn't capable of that is below average. It's a pretty easy measuring stick.
 
EdFred said:
I believe they are qualified to judge what an average pilot should be capable of, and anyone that isn't capable of that is below average. It's a pretty easy measuring stick.
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This idea that any pilot who would make ONE safety-related decision more conservatively than you would is in need of remedial training is nuts. Just nuts.
 
EdFred said:
You work for the press don't you?

This just in: Flight plans prevent accidents!

Thinking, it helps to do it before you post.
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This just in:
If you want them took look for you it might help if they know you're missing.
 
Kritchlow said:
This just in:
If you want them took look for you it might help if they know you're missing.
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Fun fact: Cancelling IFR does not automatically equal radar services terminated. For a 20+ year pro your knowledge gaps seem pretty big.
 
EdFred said:
Fun fact: Cancelling IFR does not automatically equal radar services terminated. For a 20+ year pro your knowledge gaps seem pretty big.
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No, being released to CTAF automatically equals radar services terminated.
 
EdFred said:
I'm an average pilot. If I can do it, anyone should be able to do it. I don,t ask anyone to do anything I'm not capable of. And it's not seriously crazy - and there was never a safety issue. There's these things called landing lights on the plane - although in the Cherokee it was singular. I'd do it again 1000 times over. Anyone who calls themselves a pilot should be able to do the same thing. If you can't, or feel uncomfortable, a self analysis - or outside analysis of your skills is in order.
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I don't know about the landing light in the Cherokee you were flying, but I know that mine (LED, no less) don't shine enough light far enough ahead to avoid trees even at stall speed. So yes, I would consider it seriously crazy to attempt that final approach in my plane. YMMV.

Now maybe you did something else like chop 'n' drop from over the trees that under the circumstances (strong headwind?) was safe. And I've never been to Gaston's personally. But having seen videos of that final approach between the trees, it's something I would attempt in daylight only. And I'm happy to submit my skills to the analysis of a CFI - I do so a good deal more often than every two years, whenever possible, thank you very much.
 
EdFred said:
That I will agree with. But the guy behind you will see the flaming ball of mediocrity and plumes of suckage, and can call it in. Which is probably quicker than the 30 minute wait and see time.
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What if there are no flames due to fuel starvation? There have also been instances where they are down an embankment somewhere, or perhaps lost an engine while on a go around? They very well may not be in plain sight.
 
EdFred said:
Fun fact: Cancelling IFR does not automatically equal radar services terminated. For a 20+ year pro your knowledge gaps seem pretty big.
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Who said it did? It also doesn't mean there will be radar coverage, especially at smaller out of the way airports.

Ask one of your students... They can probably brief you on that.
 
Kritchlow said:
Who said it did? It also doesn't mean there will be radar coverage, especially at smaller out of the way airports.

Ask one of your students... They can probably brief you on that.
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Then I guess we should outlaw VFR, You know. For the children.
 
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