Can an annual substitute for a pre-purchase inspection? If an annual is done before the due date do any maintenance issues need to be fixed?

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Brendon

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Considering partnering with someone on a plane he already owns. Is a PA28-140 a 1968 Cherokee 140. He said the last annual in October was almost $30K . It's IFR certified and he values it around $70K.


I looked into pre-purchase inspections and it seems like they cost about 80% of an annual and look at similar things.


So my thinking is, if I'm basically paying for an annual anyways why not just do an annual? My concern is he might not want to do it because if something comes up and I decide not to buy the airplane now he is stuck with a maintenance bill that might have been able to wait otherwise. But if the annual is done before it is due then would the repairs be required? Thanks!

Edit Looked at the paperwork for the last annual
There are a lot of line items obviously but the ones that stand out are

Aileron Rigging, was not hitting full stops

Reskin Rudder & both flaps upper

Paint (presumably for the reskins, not a full paint job)

Muffler Replaced

Alternator Replaced

Carb heat shroud

Handbrake reseal

Hourly rate $96
 
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Brendon said:
Considering partnering with someone on a plane he already owns. Is a PA28-140 a 1968 Cherokee 140. He said the last annual in October was almost $30K . It's IFR certified and he values it around $70K.


I looked into pre-purchase inspections and it seems like they cost about 80% of an annual and look at similar things.


So my thinking is, if I'm basically paying for an annual anyways why not just do an annual? My concern is he might not want to do it because if something comes up and I decide not to buy the airplane now he is stuck with a maintenance bill that might have been able to wait otherwise. But if the annual is done before it is due then would the repairs be required? Thanks!
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A pre-buy inspection is more rigorous than an annual inspection. You control the pre-buy while the IA controls the annual inspection. The pre-buy is your guy and not the sellers.

Mike Bush has a terrific video on pre-buy verses annual for purchase assessments.

EDIT: Savvy Aviation Pre-buy Link added
 
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Mikey52 said:
Did they have to replace the wings, or an engine at last annual?
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I have not looked at the log books. From what I remember he said the shop is overpriced, it needed an alternator but obviously that's not the only thing. I didn't pry any further I plan to look at the logbooks in the coming weeks. I'll shoot him a text and ask
 
Something to consider is a pre buy / annual by another shot to get an independent look.
 
NordicDave said:
A pre-buy inspection is more rigorous than an annual inspection. You control the pre-buy while the IA controls the annual inspection. The pre-buy is your guy and not the sellers.

Mike Bush has a terrific video on pre-buy verses annual for repurchase assessments.
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We would be looking for a new shop anyways, so the new A&P would be a neutral party. I'll look into his videos though.
 
Brendon said:
Considering partnering with someone on a plane he already owns.
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If you are partnering with someone, why would only you pay for an annual inspection? What kind of partnership will this be?
And just to note, a $30,000 annual on a 1968 PA-28 is a bit excessive. I would definitely look into that last annual as to why it was so costly before committing further.
Brendon said:
I looked into pre-purchase inspections and it seems like they cost about 80% of an annual and look at similar things.
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FYI: pre-buys and annuals may look at similar items but are very different in their end result. One main difference is that a pre-buy is subjective only to the seller, buyer, and the mechanic you performs it. Nothing more. An annual is regulatory, follows established guidance, and gives you a valid airworthiness determination with a signature.
 
Hoo boy. Nothing governs what a pre-buy covers and no guarantees come with a pre-buy. Can’t speak to a $30K annual, but there was likely deferred mx in that cost, because the inspection should run about 10% of that cost. New alternators ain’t that much, but what else was done is what drove the cost.
 
TCABM said:
Hoo boy. Nothing governs what a pre-buy covers and no guarantees come with a pre-buy. Can’t speak to a $30K annual, but there was likely deferred mx in that cost, because the inspection should run about 10% of that cost. New alternators ain’t that much, but what else was done is what drove the cost.
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Looked at the paperwork he sent over. There are a lot of line items obviously but the ones that stand out are

Aileron Rigging, was not hitting full stops

Reskin Rudder & both flaps upper

Paint (presumably for the reskins, not a full paint job)

Muffler Replaced

Alternator Replaced

Carb heat shroud

Handbrake reseal

Hourly rate $96
 
An annual inspection gives you a certification that an IA has the opinion that the aircraft is minimally airworthy at the moment of signing the logbook. If you want to buy a minimally airworthy aircraft, then an annual is for you. If you want to obtain an assessment of what might be coming up in the near future, if you are interested in whether any of the avionics work, or an assessment of how the plane flies, then you might want a pre-purchase assessment.
 
Different objectives. An annual assesses the condition of the plane at that moment and determines its airworthiness. A prebuy should go beyond that to inform the buyer so he can make a purchase decision, but it doesn’t determine airworthiness.

For example, an annual might find all ADs current and declare the plane airworthy, whereas a good prebuy might tell you there are three expensive ADs that will be due within the next 30 hours.

OTOH, there are things that are usually examined during an annual that probably won’t be during a prebuy, like brake disc thickness or cutting open an oil filter.

So no, one doesn’t substitute for the other.

(And $30k for an annual on a 140 is REALLY expensive and warrants investigation.)
 
First off, the annual didn't cost $30k. The annual cost $1000 or $2000 or something like that. The maintenance and repairs identified during the annual as being necessary cost $29000. It seems pedantic, but I think it's an important distinction. Most of that work could or should have been done throughout the year but was deferred until the annual.

$98 an hour for a shop rate seems on the low side these days.

A pre-buy CAN be very thorough, but as others have said, there is no standard. So if you just tell the mechanic "do a pre-buy", you may get a 2-hour look at the logs and a glance at the plane, or you may get something that takes days and goes well above and beyond a normal annual. But it's up to YOU to specify to the mechanic what you're looking for. Be detailed in what you expect and want them to do.
 
When you hear stories of “$30k annuals”, I tend to look at it this way. Typical annual inspection is $1000. That airplane has had 30 years of the infamous $200 annuals (pencil whip).


So now it’s caught up to the present owner, he’s paying for all of the missed maintenance.

Pay me now, or pay me later. But you will pay.
 
Runs in paint or mis-matched upholstery would nit affect airworthiness

but can be huge financially.
 
Doc Holliday said:
When you hear stories of “$30k annuals”, I tend to look at it this way. Typical annual inspection is $1000. That airplane has had 30 years of the infamous $200 annuals (pencil whip).


So now it’s caught up to the present owner, he’s paying for all of the missed maintenance.

Pay me now, or pay me later. But you will pay.
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That would mean it should be good now and the next annual should be pretty standard?
 
Few comments:
- Prebuy instead of the annual, and make sure to dig into high dollar value items
- $96 an hour for a shop is not expensive, at least by Chicago suburbs standards... I'd reconsider switching shops if only doing it due to that cost basis.
- As others have indicated $30k on a '68 Cherokee 140 is not a normal annual, that's deferred mx. For reference, when I bought my '72 Piper Arrow it was $75k but with a $47k first "annual" (about 2/3 of it was expected stuff from prebuy, 1/3 was surprise). But that's because the previous 17y of annuals (only 250h flown) were mainly pencil whipped, low dollar annuals by the same 1 man shop.
- If I were you I'd be concerned about why he's trying to get a partner after catching up on 30k of deferred mx. He might be trying to recuperate some of that money [OK], or he might know some other expensive items need doing soon. Behooves you to have an independent look at the plane and judge for yourself.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Few comments:
- Prebuy instead of the annual, and make sure to dig into high dollar value items
- $96 an hour for a shop is not expensive, at least by Chicago suburbs standards... I'd reconsider switching shops if only doing it due to that cost basis.
- As others have indicated $30k on a '68 Cherokee 140 is not a normal annual, that's deferred mx. For reference, when I bought my '72 Piper Arrow it was $75k but with a $47k first "annual" (about 2/3 of it was expected stuff from prebuy, 1/3 was surprise). But that's because the previous 17y of annuals (only 250h flown) were mainly pencil whipped, low dollar annuals by the same 1 man shop.
- If I were you I'd be concerned about why he's trying to get a partner after catching up on 30k of deferred mx. He might be trying to recuperate some of that money [OK], or he might know some other expensive items need doing soon. Behooves you to have an independent look at the plane and judge for yourself.
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He actually has a partner but they want out of the partnership because they want to upgrade airplanes so he is looking for someone to replace them.
 
Brendon said:
He actually has a partner but they want out of the partnership because they want to upgrade airplanes so he is looking for someone to replace them.
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Gotcha, I must have missed that detail.

If I were you I'd still recommend the prebuy of course, I just might be a less concerned about his motivation for bringing on a partner.
 
Brendon said:
That would mean it should be good now and the next annual should be pretty standard?
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No.

What it means is that the airworthiness items in the annual inspection checklist were within tolerance at the time of inspection.

I’d love to know why the rudder skins and upper flap skins were re-skinned; that’s not a trivial decision and likely a full 1/3d or more of the cost. Skins generally aren’t going to be unairworthy unless corroded and that much corrosion would have me pass on a Cherokee; too many much better examples out there anyways.

I’d be wondering if this particular airframe is subject to the wing spar inspection, when it was last done or when it’s next due.

I’d also wonder id the current owner really knows anything about ownership, what the TSMOH is, and what’s set aside for OH already if I was buying into this plane.

For reference Cherokee 140s aren’t much different than 172s. I bought into my partnership with nothing more than a logbook review and a very thorough walk around. The partnership was well funded, the plane well cared for, and in the fours years since we’ve replaced a jug, added 2x G5s and just bought an exchange motor due to needing an OH right at 12yrs and 2.0K hrs on the old one.

No special assessment or anything else to cover any of that. We pay $2600/yr all in and $85/hr to cover fixed and variable expense The only thing worse than being a first time owner is being an inexperienced partner with an inexperienced partner.
 
TCABM said:
No.

What it means is that the airworthiness items in the annual inspection checklist were within tolerance at the time of inspection.

I’d love to know why the rudder skins and upper flap skins were re-skinned; that’s not a trivial decision and likely a full 1/3d or more of the cost. Skins generally aren’t going to be unairworthy unless corroded and that much corrosion would have me pass on a Cherokee; too many much better examples out there anyways.

I’d be wondering if this particular airframe is subject to the wing spar inspection, when it was last done or when it’s next due.

I’d also wonder id the current owner really knows anything about ownership, what the TSMOH is, and what’s set aside for OH already if I was buying into this plane.

For reference Cherokee 140s aren’t much different than 172s. I bought into my partnership with nothing more than a logbook review and a very thorough walk around. The partnership was well funded, the plane well cared for, and in the fours years since we’ve replaced a jug, added 2x G5s and just bought an exchange motor due to needing an OH right at 12yrs and 2.0K hrs on the old one.

No special assessment or anything else to cover any of that. We pay $2600/yr all in and $85/hr to cover fixed and variable expense The only thing worse than being a first time owner is being an inexperienced partner with an inexperienced partner.
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I would have to ask why they were reskinned, I don't know. It is subject to the wing spar inspection, when it was last done an inspection door was added so the wings would not need to be removed to do the inspection every time. He has no money set aside for overhaul, however the engine is at 1000 hours and I have discussed with him and he agrees that if I were to partner we would set aside $25/hr for overhaul and an additional $25/hr for maintenance/annual.
 
Brendon said:
I would have to ask why they were reskinned, I don't know. It is subject to the wing spar inspection, when it was last done an inspection door was added so the wings would not need to be removed to do the inspection every time. He has no money set aside for overhaul, however the engine is at 1000 hours and I have discussed with him and he agrees that if I were to partner we would set aside $25/hr for overhaul and an additional $25/hr for maintenance/annual.
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There are multiple wing spar ADs so you need to make sure everyone is talking about the same one.

If this guy has no money set aside for things such as an overhaul, that may be why he's looking for a partner and/or that may be the real reason the other guy wants to exit.
 
Probably not applicable here but what a lot of buyers will do is start a pre-buy and if all looks good have it turn into an annual... which makes sense since(hopefully) all the panels are already off and many of the same items are looked at as a part of both.

If you do get a pre-buy make sure you're discussing what is being done with the mechanic. I've seen a pre-buy consist of a quick flip through the logs, a compression test, and general walkaround and look at stuff over the course of what was probably under an hour. That pre-buy certaily revealed less than an annual and honestly a lot of shops aren't going to do much more than that unless specifically directed to. If you know the mechanic who did the annual and seller and trust them a pre-buy isn't required but most still reccomend it. Even if everyone is being honest a different mechanic might notice something the guy who's been maintaining it for years never looks at.
 
cowman said:
Probably not applicable here but what a lot of buyers will do is start a pre-buy and if all looks good have it turn into an annual... which makes sense since(hopefully) all the panels are already off and many of the same items are looked at as a part of both.

If you do get a pre-buy make sure you're discussing what is being done with the mechanic. I've seen a pre-buy consist of a quick flip through the logs, a compression test, and general walkaround and look at stuff over the course of what was probably under an hour. That pre-buy certaily revealed less than an annual and honestly a lot of shops aren't going to do much more than that unless specifically directed to. If you know the mechanic who did the annual and seller and trust them a pre-buy isn't required but most still reccomend it. Even if everyone is being honest a different mechanic might notice something the guy who's been maintaining it for years never looks at.
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I trust the seller for the most part, I mean if your spending $27K on maintenance for an annual your probably not skipping anything minor to save a few bucks.

My concern is if I use the local mechanic it seems kind of like a conflict of interest as the seller knows them and I don't. I don't know any A&P's though and I don't even have anyone to ask because the only people I know personally in aviation are the seller and my CFI who has no interest in owning an airplane.
 
Re The second part of your question:

IMHO Whenever an Inspection is done any Maintenance Issues that would

render the aircraft Not Airworthy have to be resolved before flight.

Discrepancies that are not that severe may be deferred to a later time.
 
TCABM said:
I’d love to know why the rudder skins and upper flap skins were re-skinned; that’s not a trivial decision and likely a full 1/3d or more of the cost. Skins generally aren’t going to be unairworthy unless corroded and that much corrosion would have me pass on a Cherokee; too many much better examples out there anyways.

I’d be wondering if this particular airframe is subject to the wing spar inspection, when it was last done or when it’s next due.
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Those are two BIG questions.

A lot depends on the shop. Some shops do minimal annual inspections and some do more in depth. Some do little for a pre-buy, others do more. A lot of horror stories. Search here and other boards.

One recent one in the Mooney world, guy has shop to the inspection portion of the annual as a pre-buy. Clean bill of health so he buys the plane and has the same shop finish the annual. Gets report, Oh, this plane is not airworthy due to rear spar corrosion. $40,000 repair.

Heck, I just bought a plane with a fresh annual that has a major gouge worn in the prop (wood/composite). NO idea how that got signed off.
 

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Brendon said:
I don't know any A&P's though and I don't even have anyone to ask because the only people I know personally in aviation are the seller and my CFI who has no interest in owning an airplane.
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Perhaps work out a non-ownership type of partnership for the first year and see how things go? That way you can have a better understanding on the condition of the aircraft while not opening yourself to any major risks? You can also use that year to increase your knowledge on aircraft ownership and develop more contacts in the local aviation industry. There are plenty of free guidance documents out there to help you along this learning path.
 
After thinking more about this deal, just go talk to the A&P that’s maintaining it. Ask him what he thinks about the airplane. Then you’ll have to assess how honest you think he is. I think most mechanics are pretty straight up about owners, and how they take care of things. He probably doesn’t care at all if you own part of the airplane or not.

IMO, the main purpose of a pre-buy is to get your mechanics opinion on something that he is being handed from another mechanic. If the same mechanic will continue maintaining the aircraft, and you do not personally know another mechanic that you trust, a pre-buy then becomes a waste of time and money. The faith you have in the mechanic maintaining it is pretty important here.

This is all inconsideration that you are talking about buying into one of the cheapest (in the scheme) aircraft to purchase and fly.
 
Brendon said:
I trust the seller for the most part, I mean if your spending $27K on maintenance for an annual your probably not skipping anything minor to save a few bucks.
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That’s your call to make, but that’s also after the fact logic. Whatever led up to the re-skinning is where things may have been deferred. There’s a lot I don’t know; did the current owner buy it as a project and plan to do that work anyway, or has he owned it for many years. Just questions that come to mind.
Brendon said:
…My concern is if I use the local mechanic it seems kind of like a conflict of interest as the seller knows them and I don't.
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True; you could also talk to the mechanic and see how many pre-buys he’s done lately and whether he would be willing to provide referrals to some of those customers, then talk to them.

For me, this is a lot of legwork on a Cherokee 140, but I can understand the desire to know what you’re getting into. And that leads up to my last thought. You trust the owner; are you willing to burn that trust even if you get a clean bill of health on the plane and the next month the engine comes from together and y’all are down for 4+ months and out $40K or more for an overhaul?

That’s what this comes down to.
 
Brendon said:
I trust the seller for the most part, I mean if your spending $27K on maintenance for an annual your probably not skipping anything minor to save a few bucks.
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As noted previously, that $27k involves significant deferred maintenance…he may not be skipping now, but he’s probably skipping for several years prior.
 
Brendon said:
Considering partnering with someone on a plane he already owns. Is a PA28-140 a 1968 Cherokee 140. He said the last annual in October was almost $30K . It's IFR certified and he values it around $70K.


I looked into pre-purchase inspections and it seems like they cost about 80% of an annual and look at similar things.


So my thinking is, if I'm basically paying for an annual anyways why not just do an annual? My concern is he might not want to do it because if something comes up and I decide not to buy the airplane now he is stuck with a maintenance bill that might have been able to wait otherwise. But if the annual is done before it is due then would the repairs be required? Thanks!

Edit Looked at the paperwork for the last annual
There are a lot of line items obviously but the ones that stand out are

Aileron Rigging, was not hitting full stops

Reskin Rudder & both flaps upper

Paint (presumably for the reskins, not a full paint job)

Muffler Replaced

Alternator Replaced

Carb heat shroud

Handbrake reseal

Hourly rate $96
Click to expand...
$70k for a pa28-140? If you desire a prebuy, you can limit it to certain items. That said what ever repairs going forward cost you 50%.
 
An annual inspection is not the same as a pre-buy inspection. It's not going to tell you how worn the carpets are or how dirty the headliner is. However there is no standard for a pre-buy inspection and honestly it should include everything an annual inspection is because what good are plush clean carpets in an airplane you can't fly? Bottom line is that if you are buying a 40 year old airplane (or car or house or...) no amount of inspection can completely, 100% remove the crap-shoot aspect of it. You've got no factory guarantees or warranties, you need to be prepared to take on the upkeep which is a continual thing. It's a leap of faith.
 
NordicDave said:
A pre-buy inspection is more rigorous than an annual inspection. You control the pre-buy while the IA controls the annual inspection. The pre-buy is your guy and not the sellers.

Mike Bush has a terrific video on pre-buy verses annual for purchase assessments.

EDIT: Savvy Aviation Pre-buy Link added
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What Dave said. The two processes are answering *different* questions. The annual answers, "Is is airworthy now?" The prebuy answers, "How expensive is it likely to be to own this airplane for the next five years or so?" You can be airworthy now, but heading for a cliff...

Paul
 
Silvaire said:
An annual inspection is not the same as a pre-buy inspection. It's not going to tell you how worn the carpets are or how dirty the headliner is. However there is no standard for a pre-buy inspection and honestly it should include everything an annual inspection is because what good are plush clean carpets in an airplane you can't fly? Bottom line is that if you are buying a 40 year old airplane (or car or house or...) no amount of inspection can completely, 100% remove the crap-shoot aspect of it. You've got no factory guarantees or warranties, you need to be prepared to take on the upkeep which is a continual thing. It's a leap of faith.
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Why should a pre-buy spend money looking at things that will not affect the value of the deal? I can spend hours inspecting wheel bearings for pitting or aileron pulleys for adequate lubrication, but how does that help the buyer make a purchasing decision?
 
Aileron Rigging, was not hitting full stops

Two questions:

Does the Cherokee have aftermarket (Metco Hoerner) wing tips?

If so, are there holes in them to allow full travel of the counterweights?

Had the same problem with mine. The installer didn’t follow the STC instructions which clearly states: if full travel cannot be obtained, then cut holes (they even add a template) in the wing tips. It’s a stupid design that they should have accounted for in the manufacturing process but they didn’t and it looks hideous.
 
Kristin said:
Why should a pre-buy spend money looking at things that will not affect the value of the deal? I can spend hours inspecting wheel bearings for pitting or aileron pulleys for adequate lubrication, but how does that help the buyer make a purchasing decision?
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As I said, there is no standard for a pre-buy inspection. It can be excruciatingly thorough or pitifully lapse, that's up to you and whatever you think affects the value. It's your money and your decision.
 
Silvaire said:
As I said, there is no standard for a pre-buy inspection. It can be excruciatingly thorough or pitifully lapse, that's up to you and whatever you think affects the value. It's your money and your decision.
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My question was a bit different than the one you answered, if such it was. I was asking why you are advocating spending money on a pre-buy looking at things that will have no affect on the decision whether to buy the plane or not.
 
Kristin said:
My question was a bit different than the one you answered, if such it was. I was asking why you are advocating spending money on a pre-buy looking at things that will have no affect on the decision whether to buy the plane or not.
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I'm not
 
I will echo what pretty much everyone else has said here about different missions for annual vs. pre-buy, but also add actual, recent experience. Last year when shopping for an Arrow, I found one with a good price, decent panel and a recent annual. Got a copy of the annual from the owner and there was very little done. IIRC a tire was replaced and a new alternator installed. Went to see it myself and took a spin and seemed like a good buy. Owner was a bit resistant to a pre-buy, but I had the maintenance shop on the field do it since his mechanic was somewhere else.

Things that the pre-buy included that the annual hadn't mentioned (keep in mind I'm not a mechanic, so I'm paraphrasing a bit):
- Retractable gear would need a full rebuild, there were several mounts that showed close to out of spec wear, seals were all nearing end of life
- Corrosion in wings consistent with spending many years outside
- Exhaust was warped and would likely need to be replaced in the near future
- Exhaust valves had elevated levels of "burning" (engine was 1300 SMOH)
- Several ADs had not been complied with (seat tracks was one I recall and report mentioned the latch on the passenger seat was very worn)
- Card compass had been installed and there was not record in the log books. No correction card.
- LED lighting had been installed inside with no log book entry. Dimming caused breakers to pop.
- New windows installed with no log book entry.

We couldn't agree on a price concession to deal with all of those issues, but that would have definitely added up to one of those big annuals at some point. Ended up finding a much better choice a few months later that had a clean annual and also a very clean pre-buy done. Still ended up with unexpected mx in the 5 months I've owned it, so I guess YMMV.
 
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