Can an a&p remove/reinstall xpndr after testing?

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meltsner

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As of today my KT-76A is out of it's 24 month currency. I know an owner can't remove a transponder, but can my a&p remove it so it can be shipped off for bench testing, and reinstall/return to service?
 
meltsner said:
As of today my KT-76A is out of it's 24 month currency. I know an owner can't remove a transponder, but can my a&p remove it so it can be shipped off for bench testing, and reinstall/return to service?
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not with out meeting the tests required, which must be accomplished by a certified av shop. IAW 91.413
 
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simple answer.....yes.
 
Is the transponder inop? I ask because I thought the 413 check had to be done done on the airplane and not as a bench test to ensure the entire installation (transponder, cables, encoder, and antenna) all functioned properly as a system.
 
Correct. But the question is whether an AP can remove it and reinstall it.
 
Unit74 said:
Correct. But the question is whether an AP can remove it and reinstall it.
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Yes but he implies the reason for the removal is for the 413 check so I posit that perhaps he asked the wrong question.
 
tsts4 said:
Yes but he implies the reason for the removal is for the 413 check so I posit that perhaps he asked the wrong question.
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I concur.
 
The way I read it, it works just fine. He wants to remove it (or have it removed, send it off for bench test to meet the 24 month rule, and then reinstall it (or have it reinstalled) and go flying. The way I read the rule, it doesn't matter WHO reinstalls it, it has to have an in-aircraft check to meet the 24 month rule. It does NOT need to be R&R for this test to be done.

Did I miss something?

Jim
 
91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless—

(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;

(2) Except for the use of system drain and alternate static pressure valves, following any opening and closing of the static pressure system, that system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with paragraph (a), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter; and

(3) Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.

(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted by—

(1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests and inspections are to be performed;

(2) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding—

(i) An instrument rating, Class I;

(ii) A limited instrument rating appropriate to the make and model of appliance to be tested;

(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;

(iv) An airframe rating appropriate to the airplane, or helicopter, to be tested; or

(3) A certificated mechanic with an airframe rating (static pressure system tests and inspections only).

(c) Altimeter and altitude reporting equipment approved under Technical Standard Orders are considered to be tested and inspected as of the date of their manufacture.

(d) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR at an altitude above the maximum altitude at which all altimeters and the automatic altitude reporting system of that airplane, or helicopter, have been tested.

The FAA has been very specific that any time the transponder is removed and re-installed an error can be introduced. and must be retested.
 
Why have your A&P R&R it though if you need to take it to a repair station for the checks anyway? Just take it to the repair station. By the way, many A&P shops do hold the necessary 145 rating just for this purpose.
 
tsts4 said:
Is the transponder inop? I ask because I thought the 413 check had to be done done on the airplane and not as a bench test to ensure the entire installation (transponder, cables, encoder, and antenna) all functioned properly as a system.
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How would you know, if you didn't test it? IAW bla bla
 
Tom-D said:
How would you know, if you didn't test it? IAW bla bla
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That wasn't the point. I raised the question based upon the OP's initial post which I read to say that he wanted to R&R it because it needed the 413 check and I was trying to understand why he would want to do that unless there were more issues than just needing the inspection which by itself doesn't require removal of the unit.
 
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tsts4 said:
That wasn't the point. I raised the question based upon the OP's initial post which I read to say that he wanted to R&R it because it needed the 413 check and I was trying to understand why he would want to do that unless there were more issues than just needing the inspection which by itself doesn't require removal of the unit.
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The point I was trying to make is simple, no matter why or who replaces these units they need to be tested after installation. they are only part of the whole system. the whole system must work.
this is why the FAA segregates them from other front loaders in FAR 43-A-( c)-31. This is covered in every IA seminar I've attended.
 
Tom-D said:
The point I was trying to make is simple, no matter why or who replaces these units they need to be tested after installation. they are only part of the whole system. the whole system must work.
this is why the FAA segregates them from other front loaders in FAR 43-A-( c)-31. This is covered in every IA seminar I've attended.
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Yeah well you were rather obtuse about it since nothing in my post contradicts your simple point.
 
I agree with Tom D. You can't test it without in the plane and connected to the antenna.

They also segregate DMEs and autopilots.
 
Tom-D said:
OMG what happened ?
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Nothing I posted disagreed with your statements. If you go back and read my posts all I did was ask a question simply because I didn't understand why the OP wanted to remove the unit from the airplane just because the 24-month inspection had lapsed.
 
Tom-D said:
(3) Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.
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Thanks, I missed this, makes sense. Yes, the transponder is operational, no issues. Just thought it if could be removed and tested outside of the plane, I would just ship it off rather than fly the plane somewhere. There was a mobile repair station that was supposed to come through mid-December, but after calling him last week, said it would now be latter part of Jan. :rolleyes: I seen Appendix F lists bench test as an option, but still must be complied with (3) above.

By the way @Unit74, just up the road from you at JES.
 
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meltsner said:
As of today my KT-76A is out of it's 24 month currency. I know an owner can't remove a transponder, but can my a&p remove it so it can be shipped off for bench testing, and reinstall/return to service?
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An owner CAN remove a transponder and ship it off for bench testing. The requirement for "who can" applies to installing and returning to service.
Your A&P could/might be able to.

65.81 General privileges and limitations.

(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

Quite frankly, an A&P's "authority" often only comes into question after something bad happens.
 
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Anybody can make a plane unairworthy. If a pilot-owner ALONE pulls the transponder, the aircraft can't be flown even in cases where a transponder is not required. There's no provision in the PM exceptions to allow a pilot to do that.
 
Thanks, I went ahead and flew it down to the avionics shop and got the vfr tests done at the same time. Took less than two hours and got a good breakfast out of it in the meantime!
 
flyingron said:
Anybody can make a plane unairworthy. If a pilot-owner ALONE pulls the transponder, the aircraft can't be flown even in cases where a transponder is not required. There's no provision in the PM exceptions to allow a pilot to do that.
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What about working under the supervision of an A&P?
 
GlennAB1 said:
What about working under the supervision of an A&P?
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To do what??
5.81 General privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

You only need them to do what they are rated to do, the common A&P is not rated to do transponder tests
 
GlennAB1 said:
What about working under the supervision of an A&P?
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Then it's up to the A&P what he wants to sign off for.

The issue that an owner-pilot can't remove a transponder on his own without rendering the aircraft unairworthy.
 
No, legally, he'd need a maintenance deferral, MMEL's have provisions for operation with an inop transponder and W&B could be adjusted by calculation on paper.
 
GlennAB1 said:
No, legally, he'd need a maintenance deferral, MMEL's have provisions for operation with an inop transponder and W&B could be adjusted by calculation on paper.
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No, he'll have an unairworthy aircraft. What makes you think an owner-pilot can go removing pieces of equipment? It's not something that's covered by the 43 App A PM tasks.
 
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