Can a PP help an FBO retrieve a plane?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Pi1otguy, Apr 7, 2021 at 1:26 AM.

  1. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Free use of an airplane is illegal compensation??

    When I was a student, my flight school comp’d me several hours of plane and instruction. Was that illegal?

    By this logic, it would be illegal for a plane owner to lend the plane to a buddy. Heck, it would even be illegal for a pilot flying with a friend in a friend’s plane to take the controls for 30 minutes, log PIC, and not pay a pro rata share.

    This stuff is bureaucratic insanity and best handled by keeping one’s mouth shut.
     
  2. Deelee

    Deelee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Get your cert ready for FAA-mandated melting.
     
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  3. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    All the times I did it, never once did the thought of insurance come to mind...but now I believe I would look into it. Ie subrogation by the owner's insurance against me. Would there be any concern there?
     
  4. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    If you are flying with a flight school you are ALLWAYS paying more than the pro rata share for the airplane. If the school decides to refund you some of your money in the form of flight time how is that a problem?

    I remember shortly after getting my PPL I got a call from one of the instructors asking if I wanted to fly with him about an hour away to take the plane for a radio repair. I said yes logged 2.8. My recollection is foggy as to whether I paid for the time or not and I am certainly not going to look for the receipt now 30 years later.
     
  5. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    30 years, 30 days, or 30 minutes. Doesn’t matter much.

    There’s no requirement for a PP to keep any records of his expenditures whatsoever, and certainly no requirement for his passengers to keep proof of how much money they may have kicked in for a flight. Therefore most of this stuff is farcical BS.

    Lots of hand wringing over nothing. Keep your mouth closed, written records to a minimum, don’t advertise pilot services, and stop worrying about it.
     
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  6. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If he didn't log it, did a bear really **** in the woods?
     
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  7. DBR1990

    DBR1990 Filing Flight Plan

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  8. Deelee

    Deelee Cleared for Takeoff

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    ^^^^^^^ there it is.

    He gonna come take your certs, guys. Turn all that melted-down plastic into new certs for the pilots who obey the rules.
     
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  9. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    You can do anything you want in an airplane.
    Just don't do anything to make the evening news, and don't talk about it on social media, or any place else.
     
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  10. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    If a man speaks and his wife isn’t there to log it, is he still wrong?
     
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  11. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    Hmm...
    The CFI is going to fly the plane back whether the OP goes or not...they aren't hiring him to fly the plane, nor do they need him to do so.
    The CFI is getting compensated to go and retrieve the plane.
    Not certain, but the OP logging hours seems completely incidental to any business.
     
  12. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I think what most of us are reading into this is that the OP is going to fly with the CFI to the airplane, and they each fly a separate airplane back.
     
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  13. Pi1otguy

    Pi1otguy Pattern Altitude

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    But the return trip is the PP flying the stranded plane back and the CFI returning in the plane they flew out there. The CFI is bringing the PP for the purpose of returning their stranded plane.
    I guess the "business" exemption issue is that I thought it had to be the PP's business. Like a real estate agent flying clients over a parcel or flying co-workers to a remote job site.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 4:53 PM
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Whoa, now flying pot is a whole different story!
     
  15. Pi1otguy

    Pi1otguy Pattern Altitude

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    Autocorrect has been tryna cancel me for years
     
  16. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    As long as you only fly over the states where it’s prohibited than you’re okay.
     
  17. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    Gotcha..
    Had it in my mind when I saw CFI, Private Pilot, and complex, I thought the intent was to get some complex hours with a CFI.
    That's what I get for taking that Evelyn Woodhead speed reading course.
     
  18. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    No one said that as a general rule. But yes, in some circumstances, it can be.

    When you were a student flying with an instructor, you weren't acting as PIC. When you were flying solo, you weren't acting as PIC for compensation. Or if you were, it was illegal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 11:08 AM
  19. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    So here’s an easy fix in this scenario- PP rents an aircraft and a CFI, flies to the remote airport. CFI gets out and flies the other plane home. PP flies the plane he rented home. You could even do this with a student pilot- wouldn’t be a terrible way to get cross country solo time.

    Also, yes I agree this with most here that in the real world this is a case of a grey area where most reasonable people are just going to do it and not worry about it. However I think OP was looking for a technically correct book answer.
     
  20. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait

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    Maybe - In a strange story for another time, my flight school ended up comping me some solo hours (4 IIRC) to make up for a mistake on their part in not informing me I needed to do something prior to my checkride. It was discovered by the the DPE doing the paperwork prior to the oral and he and the flight school owner talked to the FSDO and he cleared it. All things are waivable and I got free flight time.

    #winning :D
     
  21. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Pattern Altitude

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    When I was a religious man we once had a great discussion and debate on how many angels could dance an the head of a pin too.


    “Clear Prop”
     
  22. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    I'm sure this kind of thing has never happened many, many times at any FBO or flight school EVER...:rolleyes:
     
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  23. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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  24. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    According to the Harrington interpretation, you could avoid compensation by not logging the flight:

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../harrington - (1997) legal interpretation.pdf

    "If these pilots are not paying the costs of operating the aircraft while ferrying the aircraft then the building up of flight time would be considered compensation. To avoid compensation, these pilots could either not log the flight time or they could log the flight time while bearing the full cost, including fuel and oil, for ferrying the aircraft."​
     
  25. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Dedicated warriors who the military's lucky to have in its ranks? I don't see the connection. ;)
     
  26. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    How big a budget do you imagine the FAA has for enforcement? They can barely afford to keep their towers open. (Ditto for Transport Canada up here, except that Nav Canada runs the towers.)
     
  27. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The don’t “ask don’t tell” policy President Clinton issued for the US military.
     
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  28. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    @Half Fast Just rent a plane at $0 per hour, or have them declare is a free demo flight. Nothing in the FARs dictating what price you need to rent an aircraft for from what I understand.

    An FBO near my house has free one hour demo flights all the time to get new students.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 11:06 AM
  29. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    I'm sure many students have gotten free or discounted solo time. For that to be compensation, the flight school must have gotten something in return.
     
  30. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait

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    Me writing more checks for my instrument rating after the PPL is what they got. :D
     
  31. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    True, but I would say that interpretation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because I believe that the OP’s situation was incidental to the business, where the Harrington interpretation addresses flights that are not incidental to the mission of the organization.
     
  32. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    It's certainly never happened to me many, many times, including this morning.
     
  33. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If I understand your point, you're saying that a flight being incidental to the business would make it OK to log the time. However, I'm not sure we can guarantee that the FAA would agree with that. The relevance of the Harrington letter is that it provides another way of avoiding trouble with the FAA for those of us who aren't 100% sure that the argument being advanced in this thread will work.
     
  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So you don’t think the FAA allows a pilot to accept the compensation that the reg allows him to accept?
    Agreed. But like I said, I don’t believe it’s relevant. I guess I’m not one of “those” people. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 11:50 AM
  35. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Beats me. What I do know is that it's not uncommon for the FAA to go against what we Internet posters see as the plain language of a regulation.

    Then it's not relevant to you. I don't have any way of determining whether that's true for everyone else in the thread.

    Speaking of irrelevance, how do you feel about the large volume of posts making fun of the OP's question?
     
  36. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Hmmmm.......

    Interesting thought. Since there's no rule about rental pricing, could they charge me negative rent, say -$50/hr, and hand me cash?
     
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  37. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Thank you. I included an emoji to show that I was being sarcastic, but understood that's not really a good way to show it, and I appreciate your taking the time to give me a sincere answer.
     
  38. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    I don't recognize flight time as compensation. It's against my religion. :D
     
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  39. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    So you were being sarcastic about the value of gays in the military?

    [Note: when you're digging a deeper hole, stop digging]
     
  40. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Par for the course.