Can a PP help an FBO retrieve a plane?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Pi1otguy, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Pi1otguy

    Pi1otguy Pattern Altitude

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    Let's say that another person rented a complex aircraft from the FBO you rent from. It had a mechanical issue and is at an airport 3-5 hours away. That pilot left the plane and found another way home. The FBO got the plane fixed but it is still 3-5 hours away.

    The CFI asks if you want to fly up there with him and fly the plane back. All of this is obviously for free.

    Can you as a private pilot accept? Would the free flight time be compensation?

    I'd like to say this is a hypothetical, but it was a real question a few months after getting my PP.
     
  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sigh.

    Gay people in the military come to mind.
     
  3. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is the correct answer. But, this is POA so I’m setting the over/under for “number of posts before the words ‘Chief Counsel’ appear” at 14. I’m taking the under. You want the over?
     
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  4. Warlock

    Warlock Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Sounds like a fun trip...why would anyone consider it an issue is beyond me...
     
  5. mcmanigle

    mcmanigle Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Is it legal to drive 5mph over the speed limit? Does it happen every day? Do people get tickets for it? Do people not get tickets for it because cops don't know it's happening? Is it hurting anyone?

    Okay, let's do the last one first: yes, I guess you're stealing a very small job from a ferry pilot (or, more likely, the next renter to happen along the FBO), so do with that information what you will.

    Let me tell you another story: Shortly after getting my private pilot cert, I was leisurely pre-flighting at the (very small) airport, intending to go randomly bore holes in the sky. Some guy I'd never met walks up to me and says "hey, my plane just finished up its annual at [airport about 15 minutes away]; do you mind dropping me there so I can fly it home?" I said, "sure" and did. When he hopped out, I realize he'd left a $20 on the seat. I had about 5 seconds of panic thinking "wait, I'm just a private pilot; did he just pay me to fly him somewhere? Surely this isn't legal." Then it dawned on me: Nobody cares. I've slept soundly ever since.

    Don't put "private pilot who's the go-to guy for all of your mid-distance plane transport needs" in your email signature line, and you'll do okay. But no, just like driving 5mph over the limit, it's not legal.
     
  6. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I did just that except I was still a Student Pilot. I was just thinking it was cool. I was like a real pilot doing something real. Not just training. Don’t think it even crossed my mind it was free. Legal, I dunno, but we’re gonna find out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  7. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Uh oh. Bad word
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Answers probably in FAR 61 somewhere
     
  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Maybe it’s FAR 141
     
  10. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Maybe checking some of the other forums might find the answer
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Nuthin in pilots place
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Nuthin in Spinzone
     
  13. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Red board, nope
     
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  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Ur on, I’ll take over. What if it’s 14, is that a push?
     
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Pay up:ihih:
     
  16. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ah! I just figured it out.
    DADT.
     
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  17. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    61.113(b):
    A private pilot MAY receive compensation if the flight is incidental to the furtherance of ANY business and doesn't carry passengers (or property) for compensation or hire. The FBO is a business. :p
     
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  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There it is. Surely meant to mean the pilots own business, but it says what it says. I did it as a Student Pilot. Is there anything said about that?
     
  19. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    And he's allowed to pay his pro rata share anyway. All you have to worry about then is the "common purpose" thing, and you had that. He wanted to go somewhere, you wanted to go somewhere... you just didn't really care where.
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    They appeared n post #3.
     
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  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    :mad: This why I’m not a gambler:(
     
  22. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Of course, he didn’t say “appear for the first time”, so technically it’s a draw.:D
     
  23. Deelee

    Deelee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Worse than that kid who delivers pizza in his plane to those islanders for free. The FAA is going to find you both and burn (melt?) your certificates.
     
  24. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    No student flying as pilot in command appears to be legal, since it would be "In furtherance of a business". The FBO is a business.:p
     
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  25. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    We moved planes around all the time for our flight school; anything for a free hour or two!
     
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  26. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well played. Next time you’re in Phoenix, beers on me.
     
  27. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I'm gonna rule that this bet was manipulated as was the streaker bet for the superbowl, and declare it void. No pay ups.
     
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  28. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I am a Snowbirder, Been a few years since we've done Phoenix, but now I gots a reason to go back.
     
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  29. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I believe you will find the FAA’s interpretation is incidental to your employment or the business you intend to conduct and not required by the employment or business.

    If you aren’t an employee or the business owner, the flight is for compensation.
     
  30. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

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    Did it many times as a line guy picking up and dropping off airplanes and people for the maintenance shop. Didn't get struck down by lightning at any point for my sins.
     
  31. Busflyer

    Busflyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    AND...No one is going to care. Enjoy the free flying!
     
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  32. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    "The first rule of fight club is, you don't talk about fight club."

    :D
     
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  33. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    Or Chinese food, If I am eating it and look like I am enjoying it don't tell me it is cat. I don't want to know. :crazy:
     
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  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    No question it’s for compensation, but since the FBO isn’t in business to move their airplanes around for free, it’s incidental to the business, and therefore legal compensation.
     
  35. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    If you ain't sinnin' you ain't tryin! :D

    ETA: DADT was actually repealed a decade ago, so you can be open about your predilections all day long. Now, if we can just strike out that anachronistic fraternization rule happily married couples in the DOD have been violating for ages during courtship, we'd be in business baby! :D
     
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  36. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Not cat. What the cat didn't catch.
     
  37. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I understand and agree with your plain English interpretation of the regulation, but the FAA published opinion disagreeing with our interpretation. Lamb-1, 4th paragraph.
    “Such operations must be incidental to the pilot’s employment or business.....”, not any business.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  38. Deelee

    Deelee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Those who have replied that you have brushed within a hairs-width of commercial flight operations will have your certificates cast into a pit of molten plastic and be forever banned from slipping the surly bonds of Earth.

    I have never ever ever ever carried passengers anywhere that was not incidental to my purpose of flight. Never. Ever.
     
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  39. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    Really?...this is 2021...



    ...everyone know there are no happy people in the Military.
     
  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Ah Ha, finally. The two ‘C’ words weren’t explicitly said, but the C****f C*****l be the dude what do the FAA’s opinions. So, 37 minus 14 is 28. So, unmanipulated, the ‘overs’ have it.