Buying and logs...

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

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Apr 21, 2013
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Dirty B
I've been asking for electronic scans of logbooks. I'm not making an offer nor am I going to travel across the country to look at an airplane if I can't at least see the maintenance history first and at LEAST make sure the aircraft is currently up to snuff legally if not otherwise.

Two replies today:

"The logs aren't scanned, I don't have time to do that, whoever does the prebuy can go through them"

Ok then. Next!

Next scenario:

Me - "Good morning, are the logs available in scanned format, and if so, could you please email them to me? Thank you!"

Seller - "Nope, aircraft sold yesterday to a hands-on buyer, no cell phone culture sales here".

LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
 
I have log books dating back to 1958. Do you really need to know that 2-3 engine overhauls ago, the oil was changed and 10qts were replaced in 1959?

I wouldn't scan 6 logbooks either.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
...LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
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Okay maybe but like he said, airplane already sold.

On scanning logbooks: as an A&P I started doing this several years ago with every client. There is no need to use a scanner as any $100 point and shoot digital camera will make perfectly good copies of logbooks. When I first started doing it I went to great pains to align, flatten and compose each page shot but soon came to the realization that I wasn't taking family portraits to be hung on the wall. So it really takes only a few minutes to copy an entire set of logbooks if you do it 007 style like you just broke into Ernst Blofeld's office. It doesn't matter how it looks, even if there's a finger in the shot holding the corner down. As long as you can read it that's all that matters.

I also just leave them all in jpeg format and name the folder. I usually edit the file name of the first page in each book such as Airframe book 1 or Engine book 1 etc. Doing this I never have a need to hold onto a clients books and risk losing them and always have them for reference any time I need them.

It's also a good idea for every owner to do this just to have a backup.
 
logs are fiction storybooks written by authors with unknown credibility. Until I see and determine interest in purchasing the airplane I have no interest in the logs.
 
It's fine, if you don't want to scan the logs, cool, that's the seller's choice.. I simply will move on to the next airplane. But there's no need to be rude about it. I replied to the second guy and said thanks for the reply, and that I didn't think it was a "cell phone culture" thing, and that I just wanted to be able to see the logs prior to making an offer.

And he blew up at me with his reply. So, I guess I didn't want to deal with that guy anyways:)
 
Stewartb said:
logs are fiction storybooks written by authors with unknown credibility. Until I see and determine interest in purchasing the airplane I have no interest in the logs.
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True and you are going to get people here who are going to say that missing a few logbooks will devalue the airplane by 25%. I've argued against that notion believing that the value of an airplane is in it's actual condition and if you are going to pass on a perfectly good airplane because a 20 year old logbook is missing then you'll probably end up getting what you deserve in the end.
 
In my first attempt to buy a plane I got a copy of the logs, got permission for and interviewed the mechanic over the phone and was very impressed with what I read and heard. I travelled from DC to Seattle to do the pre-buy and was impressed with everything until I took down the headliner and saw massive corrosion. The mechanic said he though he had checked that four months earlier in the annual. The plane was not airworthy according to specs and I got the next flight home.

So, even if you can read the logs, stewartb is right, you have to see the plane to make the call.
 
Asking for electronic logs is totally reasonable. I was dealing with a good broker that scanned the logs before he even listed the plane on his site. Another broker thought it was a ridiculous waste of his time to scan logs. Guess which one I worked with to pursue planes.

For engine logs, yes, I only ask for logs since the last overhaul. But why is it unreasonable to ask for airframe logs? I was dealing with a buyer and a "no damage history plane." The logs clearly showed damage from an incident in the 70s. While I have no problem with that in terms of airworthiness, it definitely affects the value.

Why should I pay a mechanic $300 to discover that in a prebuy, after we settled on a price, when I could have done that myself and made an offer that didn't need a correction later?

Once you have them scanned, it couldn't be easier to send them to any potential buyer. Laziness on the sellers' part. Great to have as a backup too in case the logs are lost one day (I've seen this several times).
 
fiveoboy01 said:
It's fine, if you don't want to scan the logs, cool, that's the seller's choice.. I simply will move on to the next airplane...
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Well as noted you seem to be putting too much emphasis on previewing the logs. "Moving on" might mean you just passed the best deal on a wonderful airplane. There's really no need to assume that whatever is in the logbooks is going to be a deal breaker. The only true measure is actual physical inspection of the aircraft.
 
Silvaire said:
Well as noted you seem to be putting too much emphasis on previewing the logs. "Moving on" might mean you just passed the best deal on a wonderful airplane.
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There are plenty of airplanes out there. For every wonderful one that was the best deal, there are 3 more.

The only true measure is actual physical inspection of the aircraft.
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Well hell, no need to even HAVE any logs then.

We don't agree and that's fine by me since I'm buying for me, not you. I'll keep looking at airplanes with complete logs, even though it means that I'll get "what I deserve", whatever that is:rolleyes2:
 
Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were interested in other people's views on the subject but see now you are just venting.

okay by me, have at it...
 
When I was buying, I didnt see logs until we had a signed purchase agreement with the seller. The plane I ended up buying didnt have logs scanned. Had to review them the old fashion way during the prebuy.

While I understand the need to review the logs prior to completing the sale, I do think you may be asking to review them a little early. There alot of tire kickers and dreamers out there who will probably never buy anything. Its got to be frustrating as a seller to deal with that especially with global exposure from the various websites.

I would probably be more concerned with all the logs being present at this point in the sale.

Just my opinion.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've been asking for electronic scans of logbooks. I'm not making an offer nor am I going to travel across the country to look at an airplane if I can't at least see the maintenance history first and at LEAST make sure the aircraft is currently up to snuff legally if not otherwise.

Two replies today:

"The logs aren't scanned, I don't have time to do that, whoever does the prebuy can go through them"

Ok then. Next!

Next scenario:

Me - "Good morning, are the logs available in scanned format, and if so, could you please email them to me? Thank you!"

Seller - "Nope, aircraft sold yesterday to a hands-on buyer, no cell phone culture sales here".

LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
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I'm with you there. I want the logs up front so I can see what times and calendar age is of everything. Pretty easy to open an Excel Spreadsheet and just start going through them one page at a time from pictures that were shared via drop box.

If the physical logs look like crap, beat up, sloppy hand writing all over it in the last 10 years, water damaged or otherwise a total mess I already have a good idea what the airplane looks like.

All that can be done without going anywhere.
 
I can complete understand a seller that is not tech savy and not having the knowledge how not wanting to scan the log books. I ran into that when looking for my new plane. I just look at scanned log books as a bonus that the seller does to open up his plane to a market of buyers that are further away and to make the process earlier.

I got a laugh outta the cell phone comment...just goes to show that some people expect the buyer to be down the street who can come kick the tires and not across the country...and that is all they wanna deal with. Sad part is they are limiting their potential buyer pool...and possibly the price!
 
When your next step is to drop an AMU on airfare to go look at a plane, you bet I want to see the logs first. I have found many deal breakers just by reviewing the logs (mis reported airframe time due to tach swap, lots of planes that sat on the ramp for years, etc.) and the sellers never disclose this stuff, of course. Most brokers haven't even laid eyes on the plane they are selling.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've been asking for electronic scans of logbooks. I'm not making an offer nor am I going to travel across the country to look at an airplane if I can't at least see the maintenance history first and at LEAST make sure the aircraft is currently up to snuff legally if not otherwise.

Two replies today:

"The logs aren't scanned, I don't have time to do that, whoever does the prebuy can go through them"

Ok then. Next!

Next scenario:

Me - "Good morning, are the logs available in scanned format, and if so, could you please email them to me? Thank you!"

Seller - "Nope, aircraft sold yesterday to a hands-on buyer, no cell phone culture sales here".

LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
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I have a beautiful set of log books for a POS aircraft.

Would you be interested?
 
I could understand seeing something in particular in the log books such as a major overhaul but page after page of oil changes, transponder pitot static inspections? Nah.

You should already know if it's had a damage history by your own research. Even then there are plenty of aircraft that have had damage where the owner didn't file a 337 on the repair or enter it in the log books. Outside of that your looking for AD compliance. That's on you to ask the owner if a certain AD has been complied with and then back it up with your own log book review upon arrival to view the aircraft.

My brother looked at a C-150 with his A&P that had thorough logs but the thing was a POS. Hail dings, crappy paint & interior. Looked good in the pics, they always do until you get up close. Nothing in the log books would have kept him from paying the guy 500 bucks to fly out to see it. Just gotta see it for yourself.
 
Price isn't the only place where buyers and sellers decide to part company when they don't agree.
 
Never had a problem getting a copy of the logs scanned ,and e mailed. Also if I did a pre buy had the mechanic review the actual logs. If your the buyer you want as much info and photos as possible.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've been asking for electronic scans of logbooks. I'm not making an offer nor am I going to travel across the country to look at an airplane if I can't at least see the maintenance history first and at LEAST make sure the aircraft is currently up to snuff legally if not otherwise.

Two replies today:

"The logs aren't scanned, I don't have time to do that, whoever does the prebuy can go through them"

Ok then. Next!

Next scenario:

Me - "Good morning, are the logs available in scanned format, and if so, could you please email them to me? Thank you!"

Seller - "Nope, aircraft sold yesterday to a hands-on buyer, no cell phone culture sales here".

LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
Click to expand...

Good example of why I have found GA to be a strange community.
 
As a buyer, I'd be embarassed to ask a seller to scan all the log pages and give me copies. The AD listing, maybe. The purchase agreement will require the plane to be "as represented". My pre-purchase inspection will include a logbook review to help determine if it's really "as represented".

dtuuri
 
I'm not embarrassed to ask and I don't think it's out of line at all.. In this digital age it shouldn't be an issue. Two sellers have emailed me scanned copies of logbooks since I started this thread. One, in fact, has it listed right on the ad.. "scanned airframe/engine/prop logs are available in pdf form".

If there's an obvious black flag in the books, it's much easier and economical to just end it there with a "no thanks" instead of doing it at some point during the prebuy.
 
In today's age, it's not that hard to (at the very least) use your cellphone to take a photo of the last several pages of a log book and email them. That would be a very realistic and easy start to see whether or not you'd like to know more.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I'm not embarrassed to ask and I don't think it's out of line at all.. In this digital age it shouldn't be an issue. Two sellers have emailed me scanned copies of logbooks since I started this thread. One, in fact, has it listed right on the ad.. "scanned airframe/engine/prop logs are available in pdf form".

If there's an obvious black flag in the books, it's much easier and economical to just end it there with a "no thanks" instead of doing it at some point during the prebuy.
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As a seller, I wouldn't let you scan the logs, just look at them. Hey, it's my plane and the logs aren't for public consumption.

dtuuri
 
Arrow115 said:
When I was buying, I didnt see logs until we had a signed purchase agreement with the seller. The plane I ended up buying didnt have logs scanned. Had to review them the old fashion way during the prebuy.

While I understand the need to review the logs prior to completing the sale, I do think you may be asking to review them a little early. There alot of tire kickers and dreamers out there who will probably never buy anything. Its got to be frustrating as a seller to deal with that especially with global exposure from the various websites.

I would probably be more concerned with all the logs being present at this point in the sale.

Just my opinion.
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My case too. Prebuy without logs except for scans of the past couple years (logs are with the previous mechanic in another city). My guy tells me airframe is clean and engine looks good, but he wants the logs. Point is that not everyone is as organized as they should be--and it doesn't mean the plane is no good….
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I've been asking for electronic scans of logbooks. I'm not making an offer nor am I going to travel across the country to look at an airplane if I can't at least see the maintenance history first and at LEAST make sure the aircraft is currently up to snuff legally if not otherwise.

Two replies today:

"The logs aren't scanned, I don't have time to do that, whoever does the prebuy can go through them"

Ok then. Next!

Next scenario:

Me - "Good morning, are the logs available in scanned format, and if so, could you please email them to me? Thank you!"

Seller - "Nope, aircraft sold yesterday to a hands-on buyer, no cell phone culture sales here".

LOL, ok sir. Dollars to doughnuts the guy is pretty old with that comment...

:dunno:
Click to expand...


And there is some sort of problem with being old?
 
dtuuri said:
As a seller, I wouldn't let you scan the logs, just look at them. Hey, it's my plane and the logs aren't for public consumption.

dtuuri
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And that's certainly your prerogative, it's also a buyer's to walk away if they so choose:yesnod:
 
Stewartb said:
logs are fiction storybooks written by authors with unknown credibility. Until I see and determine interest in purchasing the airplane I have no interest in the logs.
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I agree! I've only bought and sold eight different aircraft over the years, so I'm not an expert. After the first one, which went bad for some real money , I carefully studied the seller, his dress, his car,if possible, his hangar for sure, and his manner. It worked quite well. The log books kept by the remaining 7 people were, complete, legible, and held additional comments oftentimes in separate envelopes with receipts for parts purchased, etc. In other words they resembled the person who was selling....stable, with their act together. ( I never bought an aircraft that sat out...it had to have been hangared for most of its life. ) I am also very careful to see who worked on it and where, especially during and after a major rebuild. The first one was a cessna 195, with a brand new paint job, sold to me by an alcoholic airline captain who lied about the engine and the accessories. It was a nightmare. My fault! After that,I bought the best of what I could afford. Had a careful prebuy but often an annual came with the purchase. It takes time to find a nice one but it worked. I never had an instrument ticket as I knew I would not fly often enough to be really on top of it. Probably saved my life and others. Be prepared to walk away!
 
If you've ever sold an airplane then you know the drill. depending on what you have and what you're asking for it and where you put the ads you are likely to be inundated with calls and emails. It is, in fact, quite likely that you may get half a dozen correspondences of one sort or another from people who don't even have the money to buy the darn thing. Also likely that someone is gonna ask you to pull a cylinder or two so they can look at the camshaft or other such nonsense.

I know airplanes cost a lot of money, it's a big investment and I know there are bad people out there but you can't go in with a predetermined assumption that the guy selling his airplane is a liar and a crook.

As noted and as I stated, scanning the books is no big deal these days with a cheap digital camera or even your smart phone but in the OP's opening salvo he complains about two guys who didn't want to do it, the second of which had already sold the airplane.

Honestly, I don't see anything worth getting all wound up about.
 
Silvaire said:
If you've ever sold an airplane then you know the drill. depending on what you have and what you're asking for it and where you put the ads you are likely to be inundated with calls and emails. It is, in fact, quite likely that you may get half a dozen correspondences of one sort or another from people who don't even have the money to buy the darn thing. Also likely that someone is gonna ask you to pull a cylinder or two so they can look at the camshaft or other such nonsense.

I know airplanes cost a lot of money, it's a big investment and I know there are bad people out there but you can't go in with a predetermined assumption that the guy selling his airplane is a liar and a crook.

As noted and as I stated, scanning the books is no big deal these days with a cheap digital camera or even your smart phone but in the OP's opening salvo he complains about two guys who didn't want to do it, the second of which had already sold the airplane.

Honestly, I don't see anything worth getting all wound up about.
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You also don't want to stumble into a trap like I did with the cessna 195. It's wise to not let emotion enter into a sale. Buyer beware is the attitude to have. If you've been had for a considerable amount of time and money it tends to wind you up, or at least mature some.
 
I don't think he is dumb enough to think the logs tell you to buy the plane, but logs can certainly tell us to walk away. That saves me a lot of time instead of driving/flying to see your plane, then going through the logs.

I could have gone through the logs at home to make the same conclusion without even the expense of the time it takes for me to put on pants. I've walked away from 2 planes, solely from things I saw in the logs that the seller either didn't know or was lying to me about. Would have saved me a lot of bother.
 
Silvaire said:
I know airplanes cost a lot of money, it's a big investment and I know there are bad people out there but you can't go in with a predetermined assumption that the guy selling his airplane is a liar and a crook.
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Let me clarify, I don't think that MOST sellers are liars nor crooks. In fact I tend to trust people, maybe even a little too much. I basically assume someone is honest unless they prove otherwise. Ergo, I don't really believe that most logbooks are "fairy tales" and while a lot of them might have a few small errors, I don't think many are intentionally doctored out of dishonesty. It's not a predetermined assumption about the seller's charachter, it's me trying to protect myself. This, for me, is a fairly large outlay of cash and if in the future I want to sell, for whatever reason, I'd like to get "most" of the money back minus normal wear/engine depreciation etc...

I do agree with your previous point about people having the funds to buy and bothering sellers with no real intention nor ability to purchase. That sort of thing would anger me.. but I would think it would be difficult to know if a potential buyer had funds or not, unless they outright told you either way.

As noted and as I stated, scanning the books is no big deal these days with a cheap digital camera or even your smart phone but in the OP's opening salvo he complains about two guys who didn't want to do it, the second of which had already sold the airplane.
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The ad was still up this morning. Exactly how was I supposed to know the aircraft had sold the the day before? Telepathy? Generally, if the ad is up, I assume the airplane is for sale.

Honestly, I don't see anything worth getting all wound up about.
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Not very wound up. Just perplexed;)
 
Silvaire said:
True and you are going to get people here who are going to say that missing a few logbooks will devalue the airplane by 25%. I've argued against that notion believing that the value of an airplane is in it's actual condition and if you are going to pass on a perfectly good airplane because a 20 year old logbook is missing then you'll probably end up getting what you deserve in the end.
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But in many cases it is true. How much value...well that is debatable, but try selling a common airplane with missing logs and see how many buyers make any inquiries after the initial finding of fact. That is what typically limits the value of logs regardless of the condition of the airplane. Too many tire kickers and fickle buyers and most folks don't want to continue to pay the upkeep on an airplane for a year or more holding out for the perfect buyer.

That said, I bought an airplane with missing logs and paid top dollar. In that case log books never factored into the negotiations. But when you are buying an airplane that is one of only 20 ever made.....who cares what kind of fabric was on it in 1938?
 
Fearless Tower said:
But in many cases it is true. How much value...well that is debatable, but try selling a common airplane with missing logs and see how many buyers make any inquiries after the initial finding of fact.
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One Archer I inquired about(early 80's if I remember right) has "partial logs since 2013..." I've watched the price drop quite a bit but I wouldn't buy it at any reasonable price. Just for the reason you mentioned... I'd have a very hard time selling it.

How would you be able to accurately list the AFTT and the engine hours if you only had logs from the past 2-3 years?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
How would you be able to accurately list the AFTT and the engine hours if you only had logs from the past 2-3 years?
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You can't....but then how much does it matter? Most non-pressurized piston airplanes don't have a lot of life-limited parts. And the engine....at some point you can factory overhaul it and then previous logs won't matter much.

But there are a lot of Archer's out there with their logs and as you pointed out, those will likely sell for more and sell quicker.

With my Waco, we estimate it has around 2000 hrs TTAF from piecing together records that are available, but we don't know for certain. Could be 500 more or less. Does that matter? It didn't matter to me. Engine is a fresh overhaul by one of the two best Continental 670 shops in the country. The wooden wings are brand new. Fabric is brand new and the original steel frame was gone over with a fine tooth comb. I also don't plan on selling it any time soon. So, the original logs are merely of historical/museum value to me.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
One Archer I inquired about(early 80's if I remember right) has "partial logs since 2013..." I've watched the price drop quite a bit but I wouldn't buy it at any reasonable price. Just for the reason you mentioned... I'd have a very hard time selling it.

How would you be able to accurately list the AFTT and the engine hours if you only had logs from the past 2-3 years?
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Do those numbers in the logs for the past three years somehow "vanish" when the previous logs go missing? :dunno:

People get their panties all twisted up over log books. For GA aircraft, they are mostly worthless. Real problems don't get logged, accidents don't get logged, AD's get the "PCW" treatment, etc.

Even the FAA doesn't require the owner to keep all of the logs. But a prospective buyer will squeal like a stuck pig when he finds bad compression numbers 2 overhauls back. :rolleyes:
 
dtuuri said:
As a seller, I wouldn't let you scan the logs, just look at them. Hey, it's my plane and the logs aren't for public consumption.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
Here's the practical problem. You (not really you) are in Tennessee; potential buyer in Kansas. Assuming interest in the aircraft, where is the buyer going to look at the logs and how much time is she really going to have to look at them? I doubt there's that much "benefit" in your airplane to overcome the "cost" of looking at your logs when other sellers are willing to share the information.

in a seller's market I guess there is no problem. There are tons of buyers out there, right?

Of course, my viewpoint is a bit skewed. I have seen some interesting cases in which a seller and a buyer (separate cases) might have benefited a lot from the buyer having had extended personal access to the logs.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Do those numbers in the logs for the past three years somehow "vanish" when the previous logs go missing? :dunno:
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No. But missing sections in a logbook or just a date vs tach time discrepancie can cover over some very interesting things. Will it make a difference all the time? No. Can there be hidden issues even with a complete set of logs? Of course there can.

There are probably a bunch of things that go into aircraft purchase due diligence that, individually, are not likely to be a big deal most of the time. More complete logbooks; prepuchase inspections by an independent who didn't sign off the last few annuals might make no difference whatsoever. Or they might show undisclosed issues.

So, while you may be perfectly willing to buy the airplane with the old stuff tossed away, others might not :dunno:
 
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